WC's best fighter and bomber of all time

Best fighter? The one I feel to be most safe? BWU Scimitar (from Unknown Enemy)
Best bomber? Hmmm... Well, Thunderbold isn't a pure bomber, but I'd definitely prefer to fly it when we're speaking of torpedoe attack :)

Yeah, I love the Thunderbolt because it can deal a lot of damage and take a lot as well. The torpedo doesn't hurt, either!
 
Yes, well, that's pretty much what I said. Naturally, it would be great to have a cheap fighter capable of doing everything - but the Dragon is a very expensive fighter capable of doing everything, so it's more effective to use a bunch of cheaper fighters, instead.

Well, yeah, I was basically agreeing with you that way...sorry for repeating without specifying that.

The use of a bunch of cheaper fighters, one for each mission, I guess that's up to personal opinion. This is just me, but I'd rather see a deck full of the same type of fighters, knowing they can all do all the jobs instead of a bunch of different specialized fighters for different jobs.

Let's take the Standoff example: Tracking of fighters lost and returned. Say you lose half of your airwing. If all your Stilletos return but you lose all of your Gladii, you can't kill a capship at all. Yet if you lose half an airwing of Dragons, you can still do both jobs at once effectively.

Either way, the Vampire is pretty much the new Dragon, considering that you can carry light torps for killing capships in S.O. It's fast, maneuverable and can do just about any job with the right ordnance.
 
Vinman:

"It makes sense from a maintenance standpoint, but there remains the issue of pilot training.

I know Wing Commander isn't a good example of this, but even though the E/A-18 Growler is a variant of the F/A-18 Hornet, you can't expect a Growler crew to do the job of a Hornet pilot, or vice versa.

If you train your interceptor pilots to push a Wasp to its limits, they probably won't be expert bomber pilots."

(Sorry, I'm not sure how to respond to more than one post, thus the quotes from a separate one)

On not expecting a Growler pilot to do a Hornet's job: Actually, sure you can...this is called cross-training, and the Navy encourages this. That's pretty much the advantage and purpose of having a single airframe to do all the jobs...you're already familiar with the cockpit and how the aircraft handles and what its limits are, all that's different is that you have a guy in the back handling the electronics suite instead of the pilot flying solo. Pilots can qualify in different missions during deployment...cross-training is actually expected of just about everyone in every job during that six month deployment. It may not be 100% realistic 100% of the time, but the expectations are there. Now, if the Prowler were still around and you'd said that you can't expect a Hornet pilot to do a Prowler's job, I'd agree with you 110%...but since the airframe and avionics are the same, I'd have to disagree.

And actually, from a Wing Commander standpoint, you're "trained" to take on all roles as a pilot...patrol, interdiction, escort, attack, CAP, antiship. So unless I'm understanding you incorrectly, you actually give a pretty good example on what you'd posted when you apply it to such a craft as the Hornet.

It's important to note that things are somewhat reversed in the F/A-18 example we have been using here. The F-14 was retired for two primary reasons; the first is that the mission of the US Navy has changed since the end of the cold war. We simply don't need an interceptor with the capabilities that the F-14 offered.

Secondly, the F-14 was incredibally expensive to operate in comparison to the F-18. If I'm understanding people correctly here, the Dragon is the more expensive fighter than the Prophecy fighters. In the real world example here, the more expensive aircraft was the specialized one.

Now, I see the point about having a wing of fighters that are all the same to cut down on maintenance. The Navy is certainly headed in that direction, but only because air superiority is much easier to attain now than it was in years past. The F-18 will never come close to being the kind of air to air interceptor the F-14 was; but it can sure splash a few bogeys when hard pressed! :D

True on both counts. There's no threat that will fire an antiship missile at a carrier battle group in force anymore, and that's what the F-14 carrying the Phoenix missile was primarily designed for as well as being the replacement for an air superiority fighter to replace the F-4. However, the F/A-18 is a breed apart from the F-14 as far as ACM goes...the Hornet is a lot more nimble than the F-14 is, and is comparable to maneuverability in the F-16. This is why the Navy used the F-16N variant for aggressor squadrons at Top Gun to simulate MiG-29s. Both the -16 and the -18 comes down to the better pilot winning because the ACM "rating" is so similar, and it REALLY came down to being a DamnGood pilot in a -14 by the time those two others became commonplace because they both could end up running circles around the Tomcat.

That being said, on a personal level, the Tomcat is still my favorite design of fighter from the Cold War era. :D
 
It is true that up close the F-14 is at a general disadvantage in comparison to those two aircraft. However, in most real world engagements, the F-14 would routinely spot the enemy far before he ever knew it was there. Often times Air Force jocks in f-15's and 16's would be killed before they could even react during training. Isn't the AIM-54 great? :D

Another interesting aspect of the F-14 was the number of requests special forces would put in for close air support. Despite the fact that the F-18 was originally designed to be a multi role fighter, once the Tomcat acquired air to ground capabilities most special forces commanders thought the aircraft was far more accurate and capable than the Hornet. It even outperformed the revered strike eagle variant of the F-15.

The F-16 is probably my favorite fighter of all time. The list of accomplishments the aircraft has gathered is considerable when you take into account the measly budget and original requirements for the airframe design. I think that, with the exception of the MiG-29, no aircraft can perform that sustained 9G turn like the 'ol Falcon!
 
The F-14 also had a longer range than the F-18 and could strike deeper into enemy territory. This has become important during the middle east conflicts where certain targets are out of range of the F-18 but could have been hit by an F-14.
 
The F-14 also had a longer range than the F-18 and could strike deeper into enemy territory. This has become important during the middle east conflicts where certain targets are out of range of the F-18 but could have been hit by an F-14.

True there. The Hornet blows half its gas getting airborne, and almost always needs afterburners to do it. When the -14D model came around, it didn't need afterburner all the time anymore...full military power was enough in the improved engines, thus saving gas and certainly providing more range.
 
It is true that up close the F-14 is at a general disadvantage in comparison to those two aircraft. However, in most real world engagements, the F-14 would routinely spot the enemy far before he ever knew it was there. Often times Air Force jocks in f-15's and 16's would be killed before they could even react during training. Isn't the AIM-54 great? :D

Another interesting aspect of the F-14 was the number of requests special forces would put in for close air support. Despite the fact that the F-18 was originally designed to be a multi role fighter, once the Tomcat acquired air to ground capabilities most special forces commanders thought the aircraft was far more accurate and capable than the Hornet. It even outperformed the revered strike eagle variant of the F-15.

The F-16 is probably my favorite fighter of all time. The list of accomplishments the aircraft has gathered is considerable when you take into account the measly budget and original requirements for the airframe design. I think that, with the exception of the MiG-29, no aircraft can perform that sustained 9G turn like the 'ol Falcon!

Yep, the Phoenix was a masterpiece, and it's pretty hard to dodge when it's whistling along at mach 5. :D

I think it might have been more accurate thanks to the ingrained TARPS pod on the 'Cat. Not only did it become the "Bombcat", but it was used for a lot of recon missions, and the TARPS pod up front gave some pretty good pieces of film in various spectrums. I remember directly from my own cruise off of Bosnia in '93 that the -14 squadrons were huffing it...so many requests for recon came down that they were logging a lot more flight hours than they thought they would be.
 
Are they Dragons or Lances???

Lance is their "official" name -- which seems reasonable, since they're a continuation of the Excalibur design program. "Dragon" was a callsign which Tolwyn's group often used for them, which became the more popular nickname.

(Think of how the A-10 Warthog is 'really' the A-10 Thunderbolt II.)

Do you know what it was about the Vesuvius that made her invulnerable from FPs on the outside?

Pliers credits the Vesuvius' immunity to "that alloy used for the skin of the super-carriers".
 
I think the FLIR and LANTIRN equipment pods in combination with the second crewman are what made the tomcat so effective in the AG mission role.

I remember reading that tomcat drivers were originally upset about having to fly "lowly recon" missions. Funny how the TARPS became one of the defining elements of the Tomcat's career.

True enough about the Hornet's fuel consumption on takeoff...has that been amended any with the e/f super hornets? I know they carry more fuel, but are their engines more efficient?
 
I think the FLIR and LANTIRN equipment pods in combination with the second crewman are what made the tomcat so effective in the AG mission role.

I remember reading that tomcat drivers were originally upset about having to fly "lowly recon" missions. Funny how the TARPS became one of the defining elements of the Tomcat's career.

True enough about the Hornet's fuel consumption on takeoff...has that been amended any with the e/f super hornets? I know they carry more fuel, but are their engines more efficient?

Yeah, the 'Cat drivers really made a name for themselves in '93 with the TARPS pod. I remember the commander of the U.S. Southern Command, Admiral Boorda, coming onboard and commending those guys over and over again for the great pictures he was getting back. That seemed to boost their spirits quite a bit over those "lowly recon missions".

Unless they've made improvements from when I was still in, the E/F models still drink quite a lot of JP-5. They expanded the wingspan to give more room for ordnance and to keep the plane in the air a little easier, made some fixes to the airframe for maneuverability problems, upgraded the avionics suites and made the intakes more efficient and larger so it could catch more air for the engines...but it's still quite the JP-5 hog.

If they really wanted to take the time, there's always the ability to launch S-3 Vikings first, configured for refuelling ops, but if there's a strike launched and on the way, that'd take precious time that isn't usually in excess. If anything, they'd likely tank on the way back to avoid going bingo fuel and have a little more breathing room to trap on the carrier.
 
Best Fighter: Dragon (Super powerful guns, Fission cannons, Infinite Afterburners, Cloaking, fast, agile...yeah it was the best. )

Best Bomber: Excalibur (It destroyed a Mother!@#$ Planet, not even a couple of Kilrathi Dreadnoughts were able to do that)
 
Any number of other Confed cloak-carrying, jump-capable, Temblor-equippable, atmospheric-capable heavy fighters with the speed and manoeuvrability of a light fighter?
 
Any number of other Confed cloak-carrying, jump-capable, Temblor-equippable, atmospheric-capable heavy fighters with the speed and manoeuvrability of a light fighter?

I remember Blair taking out a major starbase, a wing of Imperial Guard, and Prince Thrakhath himself all alone in his little stolen undershielded Sabre in a single mision without a cloak or wingmen to back him up. I think he could manage to drop a bomb into a canyon with the same ship on a good day.

But Kilrah would be much more heavily defended and he'd never make it anywhere close without his cloaking device you say? Well, K'tithrak Mang was the Kilrathi command center and key to the entire Enigma sector - which they expected to be attacked, not to mention the current residence of the Crown Prince. Something wouldn't be any more heavily defended than that.
 
I remember Blair taking out a major starbase, a wing of Imperial Guard, and Prince Thrakhath himself all alone in his little stolen undershielded Sabre in a single mision without a cloak or wingmen to back him up. I think he could manage to drop a bomb into a canyon with the same ship on a good day.

But Kilrah would be much more heavily defended and he'd never make it anywhere close without his cloaking device you say? Well, K'tithrak Mang was the Kilrathi command center and key to the entire Enigma sector - which they expected to be attacked, not to mention the current residence of the Crown Prince. Something wouldn't be any more heavily defended than that.

Didn't you forget the MASSIVE armada that the Kilrathi were creating around Kilrah (you know the one that crushes Earth on the loosing path). Without being able to cloak Blair would never have managed to get in. Not to mention the fighters there were protecting the EMPEROR (a slightly higher title then the Prince).
 
More than enough force to stop a Confed fleet or two, but Christopher Blair with a grudge? I don't think so.
 
More than enough force to stop a Confed fleet or two, but Christopher Blair with a grudge? I don't think so.

"Blair...Blair...Use the For---err...super-human mathematical ability?"

Not to mention the Kilrathi armada was designed to destroy the whole goddamn Con-Fleet and Earth itself.
 
Blair could've traded cloak for an astromech droid....but I agree that without either, he wasn't getting through! :D
 
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