WC1 Era Fleet Questions

D

DJ Erik

Spaceman
I've come up with some questions that I haven't been able to find out the answers for, and I want my story to be as accurate as possible. So here they go:

1. In the case of Exeters with a figher compliment, is there a Wing Commander? If I remember right, there was a WC on the Tiger's Claw but Commander Halycon assigned you to your wingmen instead of actually having the WC do it. Would there be a WC on a smaller ship such as a Exeter, or would it just be handled by a commander like Halycon?

2. What are the approximate numbers of ships that were involved at the final battle at Venice in WC1? The Tiger's Claw was there for certain but since Blair only took out the space station we didn't get as large of a view of the battle as it was described.

3. In the time of SM1-SM2, where was the rest of the fleet in the Vega Sector located? Since the TC was stalking carriers behind enemy lines and was the only confed carrier in that series, we didn't have any run-ins with other allied capships other then defending the Drayman transports in SM1, or at least that I can remember.

Thanks for helping.
 
I'll answer these as best as I can. Colonel Halcyon was the Wing Commander of the TCS Tiger's Claw. He was responsible for holding briefings and maintaining the Claw's fighter wing. When he assigned people like Maverick (Blair) as wing leader, that simply meant when out flying with a wingman, Maverick was in charge of the flight regardless of rank. If he told his wingman to sing, his wingman did it. I'd say the Exeters and other non-carrier ships with pilots, may have had a fighter wing lead by Wing Commander, however they might have been part of the Navy rather than the Space Forces.
 
1. In the case of Exeters with a figher compliment, is there a Wing Commander? If I remember right, there was a WC on the Tiger's Claw but Commander Halycon assigned you to your wingmen instead of actually having the WC do it. Would there be a WC on a smaller ship such as a Exeter, or would it just be handled by a commander like Halycon?
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Halcyon was the Wing Commander. He was only actually captain of the ship during Operation Thor's Hammer when a replacement for the recently departed Captain Thorn could not be easily recieved.

An Exeter wouldn't have a Wing Commander, though. Wing Commanders coordinate multiple fighter squadrons... since an Exeter carries only a single squadron, the highest Space Forces position onboard would be Squadron Commander.

2. What are the approximate numbers of ships that were involved at the final battle at Venice in WC1? The Tiger's Claw was there for certain but since Blair only took out the space station we didn't get as large of a view of the battle as it was described.
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At least two other Bengals were at Venice: the TCS Kyoto (which provided Foxtrot Wing in Venice 2) and the TCS Eagle's Talon (which arrived towards the end of the battle, per the WC1/2 guide). Other than that, there aren't really any other details.

3. In the time of SM1-SM2, where was the rest of the fleet in the Vega Sector located? Since the TC was stalking carriers behind enemy lines and was the only confed carrier in that series, we didn't have any run-ins with other allied capships other then defending the Drayman transports in SM1, or at least that I can remember.
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There isn't too much information.

During Secret Missions 2 Shotglass mentions that "the fleet" chased a Kilrathi strike force from Vega Prime... and several other locations are mentioned from which the Kilrathi are pulling ships (Ardai, Deneb and Tau Ceti).

Super Wing Commander's Secret Missions "1.5" (between SM1 and SM2) ends with four Bengal groups (including the Tiger's Claw) attacking the Kilrathi research base at Jakarta.
 
There are basically three positions:
1. C.A.G - Commander of air (or aerospace) group.
2. Squadron Commander
3. Wing Leader.

Wing leader is the pilot who leads a group of fighters form a single squadron on a mission (on WCU, basic fighter group is 2 fighters, it was changed on prophecy, WC IV, and the Kilrah run on WC III).

Squadron commander is the leader (big boss) of a squadron of fighters (10-12 fighters), mainly on logistic issues, command issues, and when the entire squadron lunches on a mission together. He is basically a mother and father to his pilots, but have no effect on their assinment.
During WC1 and WC2 you always hear of the squadrons (Killer Bees, Yellow Jackets, Starslayer, Blue Devils) but never hear of their squadron commanders. (the entire squadron concept is droped on WC3 and 4).
During prophecy, however, Sittileto is named as the Diamondback squadron commander, and Maniac was named as the Black Widow squadron commander.
Squadron commanders also show up on the WCU novels.


The C.A.G is the big chief. he command all space force assets on a given ship. He is the guy who sits with the captain and the command staff as they set the tactical operations for the ship, and he is the one who gives the orders to the pilots. (and is the one to set their assinments).
a C.A.G can be doubled as captain of a ship (Halcyon on Thor's Hammer, Blair on WC4, Bendarovsky on End Run).
On a non-dedicated carrier, with a small number of fighters (2-3 squadrons) The C.A.G position will be logically assigned to the most senior Squadron commander -
on an Exeter, which has only one squadron, the squadron commander will automaticly double as C.A.G (he is in command of ALL the space force assets aboard).

Bare in mind that all three positions are command postions - not ranks!
On an Exeter the C.A.G can be an LT., while on WC1 on the 'Claw, you as a pilot, can rise up to LT. Colonel and still be a pilot of the line - it all depends on the size of the ship.
 
I guess now is as good a time as any to deal with the insane weirdness of Wing Commander fighter wing layouts.

The biggest issue is that Wing Commander uses the term 'Wing Commander' to mean two things. It refers at different points to both the traditional sense of the position (commander of multiple fighter squadrons onboard a carrier) and what would today be called an element commander (commander of individual groups of fighters during a mission, assigned on a per-flight basis.) In the first two games you are the 'Wing Commander' because you're commanding elements ('wings') of fighters on particular missions. In WC3, Blair is 'Wing Commander' because he's in command of all the squadrons assigned to the Victory.

Okay, so far, so good. We've got Wing Commander -> Squadron Commander -> Wing ('Element') Commander. In the case of the Tiger's Claw Colonel Peter Halcyon commands the 88th Fighter Wing, which is made up of Yellowjacket, Killer Bee, Black Lion, Screamin' Shepard, Blue Devil and Star Slayer squadrons (which is to say, it has six squadron commanders).

Then WCP comes along... (G)

Now, CAG. As best we can tell, CAG is a fairly vestigial position in Wing Commander - it's a Naval billet that exists only on carriers with multiple fighter wings (the Vesuvius and Midway-class ships). Think of it as the 'super Wing Commander' (hah!) - a CAG will coordinate multiple fighter wings in the same way that a Wing Commander will coordinate multiple fighter squadrons. The Midway has one CAG is over three Wing Commanders who are over fifteen (five each) Squadron Commanders.

Now, Prophecy makes this even more confusing by again messing up the terminology. What the Prophecy FMV sequences refer to as 'squadrons' are, in fact, 'wings'. My understanding is that this was a mistake that couldn't be fixed later on, since it was impossible/implausible to reshoot video sequences. The TCS Midway has three fighter *wings* of 84 fighters each, *not* three fighter *squadrons*. Each of those wings is then divided into five sixteen fighter *squadrons*. (That's why Stiletto is unique - she's an especially young *Wing Commander*).

During WC1 and WC2 you always hear of the squadrons (Killer Bees, Yellow Jackets, Starslayer, Blue Devils) but never hear of their squadron commanders.
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Most of their squadron commanders are established at some point. For instance, the WCP Guide confirms that Major Taggart was squadron commander of the Killer Bee's... and the 'end game' medal sequence in WC1 says that Blair was squadron commander of the Black Lions.

(the entire squadron concept is droped on WC3 and 4).
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Squadrons are around in WC3 and 4 - they're prevalent in the novels (the Victory has four squadrons, Maniac commands a squadron on the Intrepid, etc.).
 
HammerHead said:
There are basically three positions:
1. C.A.G - Commander of air (or aerospace) group.
2. Squadron Commander
3. Wing Leader.

Wing leader is the pilot who leads a group of fighters form a single squadron on a mission (on WCU, basic fighter group is 2 fighters, it was changed on prophecy, WC IV, and the Kilrah run on WC III).

Squadron commander is the leader (big boss) of a squadron of fighters (10-12 fighters), mainly on logistic issues, command issues, and when the entire squadron lunches on a mission together. He is basically a mother and father to his pilots, but have no effect on their assinment.
During WC1 and WC2 you always hear of the squadrons (Killer Bees, Yellow Jackets, Starslayer, Blue Devils) but never hear of their squadron commanders. (the entire squadron concept is droped on WC3 and 4).
During prophecy, however, Sittileto is named as the Diamondback squadron commander, and Maniac was named as the Black Widow squadron commander.
Squadron commanders also show up on the WCU novels.


The C.A.G is the big chief. he command all space force assets on a given ship. He is the guy who sits with the captain and the command staff as they set the tactical operations for the ship, and he is the one who gives the orders to the pilots. (and is the one to set their assinments).
a C.A.G can be doubled as captain of a ship (Halcyon on Thor's Hammer, Blair on WC4, Bendarovsky on End Run).
On a non-dedicated carrier, with a small number of fighters (2-3 squadrons) The C.A.G position will be logically assigned to the most senior Squadron commander -
on an Exeter, which has only one squadron, the squadron commander will automaticly double as C.A.G (he is in command of ALL the space force assets aboard).

Bare in mind that all three positions are command postions - not ranks!
On an Exeter the C.A.G can be an LT., while on WC1 on the 'Claw, you as a pilot, can rise up to LT. Colonel and still be a pilot of the line - it all depends on the size of the ship.
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The Commander Air Group can command anything from a single wing to several wings, as they control all aerospace assets on a carrier - and what they consider 'squadrons' on the Midway seem to be more like the wings of an older-style carrier. Exeter carries a squadron - they'll have a Squadron Commander. A full-sized fleet carrier or even a small escort carrier would have a Wing Commander, like Colonel Halcyon or Bondarevsky before he took command of the Tarawa.

However, I doubt you'd see a 'CAG' on anything less than a carrier - anything short of a wing would probably be too small for this.
 
HammerHead said:
(...) and Maniac was named as the Black Widow squadron commander.
Squadron commanders also show up on the WCU novels. (...)
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I did never really understand that: didn't Hawk have this position before him? Why suddenly switch to Maniac? AFAIK, Hawk didn't screw anything up until this point.
Anyway, after LOAF's post it'd mean that Maniac/Hawk were Wing Commander of the "Black Widow"-Wing, right?

And please LOAF, if you can, could you quote the parts which show that Paladin was squadron commander of the Killer Bees? Not very important, just out of curiosity. Thanks.
 
What I ment is that the C.A.G is a 'job' - on small, non-dedicated carrier ships (destroyer with fighters) this 'job' is given to the senior squadron commander in addition to his regular job. on a full-fledge carrier, it is a 'full time job' and is maned by a specific, relativly high ranking officer (relative to the ship's size).

HammerHead said:
On a non-dedicated carrier, with a small number of fighters (2-3 squadrons) The C.A.G position will be logically assigned to the most senior Squadron commander -
on an Exeter, which has only one squadron, the squadron commander will automaticly double as C.A.G (he is in command of ALL the space force assets aboard).
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Any way, the WCU made a mess of a lot of things... we only try to make sence of some of it :) .

this is the big fun after all :D
 
I did never really understand that: didn't Hawk have this position before him? Why suddenly switch to Maniac? AFAIK, Hawk didn't screw anything up until this point.
Anyway, after LOAF's post it'd mean that Maniac/Hawk were Wing Commander of the "Black Widow"-Wing, right?
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Despite the fact that it makes *sense* that Hawk would be in charge of the Widows, I don't believe it's ever actually stated. He may have been onboard as commander for the (yet to arrive) third squadron.

And please LOAF, if you can, could you quote the parts which show that Paladin was squadron commander of the Killer Bees? Not very important, just out of curiosity. Thanks.
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I don't have a WCP Guide handy, but there's actually a reference to that particular retcon in the ICIS Manual: "Maniac: That’s right. We served on the Tiger’s Claw, under Paladin, who you babies know as Senator Taggart."
 
Bandit LOAF said:
I don't have a WCP Guide handy, but there's actually a reference to that particular retcon in the ICIS Manual: "Maniac: That’s right. We served on the Tiger’s Claw, under Paladin, who you babies know as Senator Taggart."
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Plus in the WC3 novel, when Paladin greets Blair, it says that Paladin was Blair's first squadron leader. So LOAF's thoughts makes sense.
 
Dragonslayer said:
LOAF i was just wondering where in the SWC script it talks about the four Bengal groups attacking the Kilrathi research base.
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You see them in the last scene.
 
Thanks for the help. Now that the command question is cleared up I can correct my writing(With interesting plot twist to boot at the end :D)

One more question though. Since it'd only be one one squadron on a Exeter, how would the fighter configuration be, considering that it can hold up to 18 fighters? At the moment in Hell's Unicorns the Exeter in question is holding twelve Scimitars and six Hornets. Would this be wrong then? Since usually a single squadron only uses a single type of fighter, but then the average squadron has around twelve ships or so; how would the other six ships be accounted for?
 
Though it may have been different in WC1 times, by the time Prophecy rolls around, squadrons fly numerous types of craft - the Diamondbacks fly Piranhas, Tigersharks, and Wasps, for example, and the Black Widow/Wolfpack squadrons also fly multiple types.

Furthermore, given that a destroyer is intended to work as an escort for other capital ships, it makes sense that there would be some form of long-range scout on board. While the Scimitars are the primary attack force, the Hornets provide the extra speed/range necessary to serve as scouts for the destroyer and whatever fleet it is a part of.
 
One more question though. Since it'd only be one one squadron on a Exeter, how would the fighter configuration be, considering that it can hold up to 18 fighters? At the moment in Hell's Unicorns the Exeter in question is holding twelve Scimitars and six Hornets. Would this be wrong then? Since usually a single squadron only uses a single type of fighter, but then the average squadron has around twelve ships or so; how would the other six ships be accounted for?
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Squadrons were larger at that point in the war, and sometimes had two types of fighters (WC1's Blue Devil squadron, for instance, had an optimal strength of fourteen Scimitars and two Broadswords.)

I would say that twelve Scimitars and six Hornets is reasonable. We've seen Exeters carrying both light fighters (Hornets in the WC1/2 USG) and medium fighters (Rapier IIs, in SM1/2 - nine(?) of them)... and the Rapier II is the Scimitar's nominal replacement, so 9+scimitars/rest Hornets makes sense to me.

Though it may have been different in WC1 times, by the time Prophecy rolls around, squadrons fly numerous types of craft - the Diamondbacks fly Piranhas, Tigersharks, and Wasps, for example, and the Black Widow/Wolfpack squadrons also fly multiple types.
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See above for a note regarding Prophecy's mixup between 'squadron' and 'wing'.
 
Another options (which you actually took without noticing) is that the ship has 2, or rather one and a half, squadrons - You did name them "Hell's unicorns" and "Honshu Hornets" - the "Unicorns" is the full squadron (of Scimitars) on the "Honshu" is a half-squadron of hornets.
It is not uncommon to find "light" squadron with smaller then standard number of ships.
 
HammerHead said:
Another options (which you actually took without noticing) is that the ship has 2, or rather one and a half, squadrons - You did name them "Hell's unicorns" and "Honshu Hornets" - the "Unicorns" is the full squadron (of Scimitars) on the "Honshu" is a half-squadron of hornets.
It is not uncommon to find "light" squadron with smaller then standard number of ships.
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Coventry, in WC3, had a half-squadron. Half-squadrons do exist in the WC universe - but that doesn't necessarily mean that they'll have a squadron and a half-squadron on the same ship - it's more likely to have one full squadron, or else have a squadron and spare fighters.
 
Haesslich said:
Coventry, in WC3, had a half-squadron. Half-squadrons do exist in the WC universe - but that doesn't necessarily mean that they'll have a squadron and a half-squadron on the same ship - it's more likely to have one full squadron, or else have a squadron and spare fighters.
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I was only making a suggestion...
In my mind it's would be better, story-wise - some competition between the squadrons... the bigger squadron flying the old buckets of bolts against the small, "elite" squad flying the smaller, more nimble, newer ships... then the big squad gets the newest toy on the fleet, and the small squad get their ego kicked off the deck...

But hey, I'm not writing the story :D

(Not this one, anyway... :) )

(EDIT: You can even split the number diffrently - 10 and 8 or 9 and 9 - and make two distictive squads.)
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Despite the fact that it makes *sense* that Hawk would be in charge of the Widows, I don't believe it's ever actually stated. He may have been onboard as commander for the (yet to arrive) third squadron.



I don't have a WCP Guide handy, but there's actually a reference to that particular retcon in the ICIS Manual: "Maniac: That’s right. We served on the Tiger’s Claw, under Paladin, who you babies know as Senator Taggart."
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Regarding Hawk's position: I thought it'd be in the WCP guide - which sadly we both don't have handy at the moment to check. :)

I see what you and Psych mean about Taggart. Could very well be - though I personally wouldn't have figured out. :)
 
Allright - the WCP Guide says that Hawk was, indeed, command of the Black Widows at the start of the game... and that Maniac was his XO.

It also says that Blair was 'under the command of Major James Taggart' during his first posting to the Tiger's Claw.
 
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