Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I don't think I said anything at all about promotions.
WC:T Byrd Scoutship wip
- Thread starter Chevieblazer
- Start date
Chevieblazer
Spaceman
no, you didn't
but the timeline you outlined in you previous post suggests that, since tolwyn is an admiral in wcm, andf that takes place between several wca episodes, in all of which he's "just" a comodore
but the timeline you outlined in you previous post suggests that, since tolwyn is an admiral in wcm, andf that takes place between several wca episodes, in all of which he's "just" a comodore
t.c.cgi
Vice Admiral
Chevieblazer said:
One thing you are 'bypassing' is the flagship system. A commander of a fleet is expected to reside in that fleet most of the time, and so he'll have to pick a ship to make his home. Admiral "Bulldog" Halsey was not the captain of the USS Missouri at the end of WW2, but it was his flagship, so that's the ship he was on. I don't think Tolwyn was ever "captain" of any of the ships we see him on, they were merely his flagship. And it would be called a "flagship" because Admiralty is a "flag" rank, not because the ship is 1337 somehow, but it's typically prefered that it is. I mean, seriously, who wants to command from some rusty old Venture corvette.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
What you're forgetting is that a Commodore is a one star Admiral (note that Tolwyn and Bellegarde have the same rank insignia in the movie). Tolwyn is not promoted to Vice Admiral until after the events of Wing Commander Academy. (Wing Commander uses the antiquated 'Commodore' as its O-7, which in the modern navy is Rear Admiral, Lower Half.)
Per the Heart of the Tiger novelization, Tolwyn took command of the Tiger's Claw as flagship of a 'makeshift squadron' to defend against a Kilrathi invasion while Blair was a 2nd Lt. Tolwyn accused Captain Thorn (who replaced Capt. Gerald following Pilgrim Stars) of cowardice and took over the ship himself. Tolwyn was left in command as 'punishment' for pulling the stunt in the first place -- these are the circumstances under which Tolwyn commanded the Tiger's Claw for twelve episodes of Academy.
While this is generally accurate, you forget Tolwyn's penchant for "usurping" command of his flagships himself.
As mentioned above, he took command of the Tiger's Claw from Capt. Thorn -- and in Wing Commander III he took command of the Victoroy from Capt. Eisen. He also commanded the Concordia (WC2) for seven years (per Fleet Action)... although the cirumstances under which he recieved that command are unknown. (The ship we know he *didn't* command is the movie Concordia, which had a different captain... suggesting possibly that Tolwyn hadn't been aboard her for very long.
t.c.cgi
Vice Admiral
Bandit LOAF said:
"Admirals by definition do not usurp..."
Yes, I know he tends to bench the ship's captain in favor of going hands-on, but he's never "the captain", so he doesn't 'return to captaining the TC' he just moves his flag there, as he does with other ships (such as the Victory, Concordia, etc). A micromanaging quality that I've never seen appreciated with my own eyes.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
t.c.cgi said:"Admirals by definition do not usurp..."
Yes, I know he tends to bench the ship's captain in favor of going hands-on, but he's never "the captain", so he doesn't 'return to captaining the TC' he just moves his flag there, as he does with other ships (such as the Victory, Concordia, etc). A micromanaging quality that I've never seen appreciated with my own eyes.
No, it's more than just moving his flag -- remember in Wing Commander III he actually removes Eisen from command and takes over. He'd made Victory his flagship earlier, and then later relieved Eisen and made himself captain.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
We already had a freaking post about this in this thread. I posted a damned picture proving my point.
Chevieblazer
Spaceman
ok, guys, take it easy.
rat, loaf is pretty much a walking wc lexicon, so i doubht you can beat him by just saying "you are wrong"
how about that:
how come that bossman was dead in wcm, and back to life in wc1? and what about paladin? he was officially retired(though inofficially intelligence) from the service, and in wc1 he's serving on the claw as a normal pilot, to be back to "retired" in wc3
and angel? she was the wing commander in wcm(know this because blair says he screwed up with the wc after his encounter in bossman's cockpit and in wc1 she's just a captain?(and don't tell me that's the same because iceman bossman and paladin were outranking her)
rat, loaf is pretty much a walking wc lexicon, so i doubht you can beat him by just saying "you are wrong"
how about that:
how come that bossman was dead in wcm, and back to life in wc1? and what about paladin? he was officially retired(though inofficially intelligence) from the service, and in wc1 he's serving on the claw as a normal pilot, to be back to "retired" in wc3
and angel? she was the wing commander in wcm(know this because blair says he screwed up with the wc after his encounter in bossman's cockpit and in wc1 she's just a captain?(and don't tell me that's the same because iceman bossman and paladin were outranking her)
Mace
Vice Admiral
I think this is indeed one of the movie's most diverting parts you adressed,
bossman gave you hints in the tiger's claw bar. yet he died before blair ever met
him.
As for the other contradictions:
I believed that the movie took place after academy, not during, however the end of red and blue tolwyn ordered them to head for the tiger's claw, he was present at the academy, then the tiger's claw and not aboard the concordia at the other side of confederation territory. given date facts might say different, but i'd say the
following order would seem more "real"(to me)
WCA, by the end of the series, after the dolos encounter, blair and maniac
go back to the academy for graduation.
wing commander movie, tolwyn get's word from the pegasus, and takes special
interest because of blair's presence on the dilligent(paladin was not in WCA,
so that they had never met does not contradict anything) the claw was now
flying with battered older fighters(losses during early stages of the conflict?
(other characters from the cartoon might have been killed in action or transferred by then)
WC1(directly after the movie), blair performs regular duties on the tiger's claw as a normal pilot, climbs through the ranks and makes a difference again... Paladin
flew a broadsword in the movie, so he has flight clearance and could have been
put on the flight roster, perhaps even by his own will, since in WC3 he makes another remark that he wanted to strap himself back into a cockpit again and
fight alongside blair once more. given the short time between WCmovie and
WC1, he'd likely still be flying
placing WC2,3,4 and prophecy would not be a problem, this is obvious.
And Paladin was also retired in WC2, not just in WC3.
this might contradict a lot of "set rules", but this was my vision of the timeline,
feel free to tell me where I am definitely wrong.
bossman gave you hints in the tiger's claw bar. yet he died before blair ever met
him.
As for the other contradictions:
I believed that the movie took place after academy, not during, however the end of red and blue tolwyn ordered them to head for the tiger's claw, he was present at the academy, then the tiger's claw and not aboard the concordia at the other side of confederation territory. given date facts might say different, but i'd say the
following order would seem more "real"(to me)
WCA, by the end of the series, after the dolos encounter, blair and maniac
go back to the academy for graduation.
wing commander movie, tolwyn get's word from the pegasus, and takes special
interest because of blair's presence on the dilligent(paladin was not in WCA,
so that they had never met does not contradict anything) the claw was now
flying with battered older fighters(losses during early stages of the conflict?
(other characters from the cartoon might have been killed in action or transferred by then)
WC1(directly after the movie), blair performs regular duties on the tiger's claw as a normal pilot, climbs through the ranks and makes a difference again... Paladin
flew a broadsword in the movie, so he has flight clearance and could have been
put on the flight roster, perhaps even by his own will, since in WC3 he makes another remark that he wanted to strap himself back into a cockpit again and
fight alongside blair once more. given the short time between WCmovie and
WC1, he'd likely still be flying
placing WC2,3,4 and prophecy would not be a problem, this is obvious.
And Paladin was also retired in WC2, not just in WC3.
this might contradict a lot of "set rules", but this was my vision of the timeline,
feel free to tell me where I am definitely wrong.
Chevieblazer
Spaceman
well, it's closest to be working, i grant you that
ChrisReid
Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
RAT said:
Hey, maybe next time you could actually read all the posts that explain how this works rather than repeat the same incorrect stuff you posted earlier.
Chevieblazer said:
The movie spans a mere two days in the timeline. Lots of pilots go missing for longer than two days. Bossman is found before you encounter him in WC1. And LOAF just detailed what Paladin does.
Chevieblazer said:
Angel is technically a squadron commander. It's really obvious. The term "wing commander" gets thrown all over the place. Angel only commands a tiny group of fighters compared to the full ship's "wing."
Mace said:
That's just silly. LOAF used the established facts and told everyone exactly what days certain things occur a few posts up. You're wrong to make a timeline based on your gut feelings instead of educated knowledge of the actual dates.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Particularly if he's just vaugely ranting about something we already discussed -- with screenshots! -- earlier in the thread. I'm perfectly willing to argue about just about anything, but "they're not 2nd Lts!" is nonsense when I've already gone out of my way to post a picture of Archer's door.
Paladin doesn't say anything about being "retired" in the movie, you're thinking of The Secret Missions 2 where he claims he's retiring.
He was, in fact, not retiring -- he's still in the service in Wing Commander II, both as Tolwyn's operative and as someone charged with military duties (readying Ghorah Khar for attack, for instance)... and then he's a flag officer in Wing Commander III. He doesn't actually retire until after the war.
(As for Bossman, we just don't know; I would personally posit that there's a story to be told in which he's captured. It would fit well with some of the odd facts of his situation - like the fact that his fighter was recovered without a body in it...)
As the novel confirms, Angel was squadron commander of the Black Lions squadron, not commander of the 56th FW. Col. Halcyon appears in the novelization of the movie.
Per The Confederation Handbook, Tolwyn was on his way back from Earth after adressing the Senate.
Wing Commander Academy takes place after 'graduation' -- we see Flight School in Red & Blue, not the Space Naval Academy. (Furthermore, the Sivar-Eshrad is an annual event -- we know it took place long after Wing Commander I started on 2654.110).
Rapiers aren't older than Scimitars, though. I'm not clear why people are so darned sure that 'not seen' and 'don't exist' are the same thing. How many of the Tiger's Claw's 104 pilots do we see in WC1? Whose to say the 90-or-so we don't have names for don't include people like Archer?
Chevieblazer
Spaceman
well, i think the big problem most people have with incorporating the movie into the main wc storyline is that it looks so stunningly different in just about every respect.
(i mean sure there are some minor flaws in the storyline(like bossman and a few other minor things that don't quite add up(i said paladin had officially left the service, of course he was still active for intelligence) but in wcm he's in active service.
also, your explanation that angel is in command of a different squadron doesn't realy explain why she's called the wc in wcm-especially if halcyon was around)
but i mean, the claw looks like a hot dog bun, the rapier is a ww2 fighter refit, and the kilrathi ships look so un-kilrathi and so un-alien that digital anvil used them all again for starlancer cutscenes(the ans reliant is a kirlathi cruiser, for example) and nobody noticed they were originally supposed to be alien ships.
i know this was intentional, but makes it that much harder to see a connection. i mean wca had a different visual style than wc1, but they were related and clearly distinguishable as wing commander
i know this isn't the point to brag on about wcm visuals, but you have to admit it makes it way easier to regard wcm as a seperate entity(like striker said a reinvention of wc1) that an actual part of the same storyline
(i mean sure there are some minor flaws in the storyline(like bossman and a few other minor things that don't quite add up(i said paladin had officially left the service, of course he was still active for intelligence) but in wcm he's in active service.
also, your explanation that angel is in command of a different squadron doesn't realy explain why she's called the wc in wcm-especially if halcyon was around)
but i mean, the claw looks like a hot dog bun, the rapier is a ww2 fighter refit, and the kilrathi ships look so un-kilrathi and so un-alien that digital anvil used them all again for starlancer cutscenes(the ans reliant is a kirlathi cruiser, for example) and nobody noticed they were originally supposed to be alien ships.
i know this was intentional, but makes it that much harder to see a connection. i mean wca had a different visual style than wc1, but they were related and clearly distinguishable as wing commander
i know this isn't the point to brag on about wcm visuals, but you have to admit it makes it way easier to regard wcm as a seperate entity(like striker said a reinvention of wc1) that an actual part of the same storyline
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Yeah, except nobody had this problem with games like Super Wing Commander or Privateer -- people are just looking for a reason to complain about the movie, but "IT'S NOT CANON!!!" isn't it.
Putting your hands over your ears and pretending not to understand why a $40 million motion picture looks different from a 320x200 256 color video game (whose fighter designs include both Firefox *and* the Last Starfighter) just isn't cute six years later.
Angel is a 'wing commander' in the movie in the same sense as Blair in the original game -- she's what is referred to as an element commander today.
Putting your hands over your ears and pretending not to understand why a $40 million motion picture looks different from a 320x200 256 color video game (whose fighter designs include both Firefox *and* the Last Starfighter) just isn't cute six years later.
Angel is a 'wing commander' in the movie in the same sense as Blair in the original game -- she's what is referred to as an element commander today.
Chevieblazer
Spaceman
well privateer pretty much used wc2 ships, so there's nothing really to complain about.
and super wc, well i don't know it, so there's nothing i can say about that
i guess you mean the rapier is the firefox and the raptor the last starfighter?
and super wc, well i don't know it, so there's nothing i can say about that
i guess you mean the rapier is the firefox and the raptor the last starfighter?
Howard Day
Random art guy.
Whoo! I think I'll get in on this.
So, Loaf is pretty much correct in his timeline and such. As for the whole visual Look & Feel thing:
No one has a problem with SWC because we know why the ships are like they are. The original 3d models for WC1 were out-sourced to a different company. To the best of my knowledge no copies of these models survived. Therefore, the Origin guys had to pretty much make a bunch of new ship models from scratch. Not surprisingly, these models got used elsewhere. The result? We don't view the SWC designs as "canon". At least the majority doesn't seem to - and that includes WCNEWS. The Ships section doesn't even mention the designs. No problem.
The whole pluging your ears thing - Loaf, buddy, there's no reason that they couldn't upped the designs from the original games to Feature-film quality. Hell - I've done just that on both the Dralthi and Hornet, and they look DAMN nice. Easily better than the contrived rapier design in the film...Don't get me wrong - I like the idea of a big-ass gun as much as the next guy - but those designs are rather odd.
Last Starfighter? StarFox? Hmmm. Maybe. Probably not. You can do this with any ship in the WC shipyard. Lemme give you an example. Do you have a staple remover? Yes? Then you have the design of both the Longbow anf the Arrow sitting on your desk. Push the two prongs together and hold it so the flat wings are parallel to the ground. A Longbow!
Release the prongs and place back on your desk. Behold! A landed Arrow! Wow!
The human eye is very, very good at spotting patterns and similarities. That's what makes looking at clouds so much fun. You can see lots of similarities and shapes that just aren't really there. The only similarity between the Raptor and the Last Starfighter is the curved wing surface. And it wasn't a wing in the last starfighter, but an actual piece of hull. Engine/weapon/cockpit/wing layouts are all different. Same for the Starfox fighter. The only similarity to the Hornet is a vauge delta wing shape. Engines, Cockpit and weapons are all in different places. These are just very loose similarities.
Anyhow - At this point I pretty much have no recourse but to accept the movie timeline as accurate. It doesn't directly contradict anything we know about the WC universe and fighting and argueing further about it is pretty much the most useless waste of time I can think of.
So, Loaf is pretty much correct in his timeline and such. As for the whole visual Look & Feel thing:
No one has a problem with SWC because we know why the ships are like they are. The original 3d models for WC1 were out-sourced to a different company. To the best of my knowledge no copies of these models survived. Therefore, the Origin guys had to pretty much make a bunch of new ship models from scratch. Not surprisingly, these models got used elsewhere. The result? We don't view the SWC designs as "canon". At least the majority doesn't seem to - and that includes WCNEWS. The Ships section doesn't even mention the designs. No problem.
The whole pluging your ears thing - Loaf, buddy, there's no reason that they couldn't upped the designs from the original games to Feature-film quality. Hell - I've done just that on both the Dralthi and Hornet, and they look DAMN nice. Easily better than the contrived rapier design in the film...Don't get me wrong - I like the idea of a big-ass gun as much as the next guy - but those designs are rather odd.
Last Starfighter? StarFox? Hmmm. Maybe. Probably not. You can do this with any ship in the WC shipyard. Lemme give you an example. Do you have a staple remover? Yes? Then you have the design of both the Longbow anf the Arrow sitting on your desk. Push the two prongs together and hold it so the flat wings are parallel to the ground. A Longbow!
Release the prongs and place back on your desk. Behold! A landed Arrow! Wow!
The human eye is very, very good at spotting patterns and similarities. That's what makes looking at clouds so much fun. You can see lots of similarities and shapes that just aren't really there. The only similarity between the Raptor and the Last Starfighter is the curved wing surface. And it wasn't a wing in the last starfighter, but an actual piece of hull. Engine/weapon/cockpit/wing layouts are all different. Same for the Starfox fighter. The only similarity to the Hornet is a vauge delta wing shape. Engines, Cockpit and weapons are all in different places. These are just very loose similarities.
Anyhow - At this point I pretty much have no recourse but to accept the movie timeline as accurate. It doesn't directly contradict anything we know about the WC universe and fighting and argueing further about it is pretty much the most useless waste of time I can think of.
Maj.Striker
Swabbie
Banned
I've probably aired my thoughts on the movie more than enough times but again, I'll try to concisely provide my viewpoint on it.
The movie was a unique story of events that unfolded within the WC universe told to us through the vision of the series creator(s). It is cannon because it came from the creators who approved it, therefore it is. (None of that, but it contradicts this! arguments need apply. Take your complaints to the Star wars Universe...one could argue that Lucas did the same thing with his three recent movies). Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not cannon...it's as cannon as cannon can possibly get. If I write a story about three characters who save earth from a giant squid and you really like the story...and then I write a followup story where all three characters get captured and hideously tortured and murdered by the offspring of the squid who has a time machine and takes them back and time and murders them so they can't stop his father from destroying the earth so that in the end of the second story everything is destroyed. I'm the series creator, if I say it is then it is cannon...simple as that. Regardless of whether it makes sense or not (I'm not saying that the movie doesn't make sense merely that the content of someone's work does not establishing its authenticity as cannon the origin of the content is what makes it "cannon.").
The movie was a unique story of events that unfolded within the WC universe told to us through the vision of the series creator(s). It is cannon because it came from the creators who approved it, therefore it is. (None of that, but it contradicts this! arguments need apply. Take your complaints to the Star wars Universe...one could argue that Lucas did the same thing with his three recent movies). Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not cannon...it's as cannon as cannon can possibly get. If I write a story about three characters who save earth from a giant squid and you really like the story...and then I write a followup story where all three characters get captured and hideously tortured and murdered by the offspring of the squid who has a time machine and takes them back and time and murders them so they can't stop his father from destroying the earth so that in the end of the second story everything is destroyed. I'm the series creator, if I say it is then it is cannon...simple as that. Regardless of whether it makes sense or not (I'm not saying that the movie doesn't make sense merely that the content of someone's work does not establishing its authenticity as cannon the origin of the content is what makes it "cannon.").
Howard Day
Random art guy.
cannon =! canon
Chevieblazer
Spaceman
lol, lot of guns in that post.
but yes, that is part of the dilemma with the movie. even if it won't fit at all(like bossman) or only with a very long and somewhat fragile line of argument, its canon because chris roberts wrote it.
he could basically have blair die in the movie(and thereby making miraculously resurrected in wc1) and it'd still be canon
but yes, that is part of the dilemma with the movie. even if it won't fit at all(like bossman) or only with a very long and somewhat fragile line of argument, its canon because chris roberts wrote it.
he could basically have blair die in the movie(and thereby making miraculously resurrected in wc1) and it'd still be canon