WC Saga Seeking Voice Actors (February 7, 2011)

Well, you see, there is a good example of there being no one 'CIC'. :)

Let me ramble a little more--I have some theories and some ideas but they haven't come together yet (... and I'm bored at work!).

I may be wrong, but I have always felt like I've been sold as the boogieman here--as if people are told 'oh, LOAF hates Saga, therefore everyone at Crius hates it, don't bother going there'. I want to express that that isn't the case and that even if it were ever true it hasn't been for many, many years.

I think there's an unfortunate history--when we were younger we all (and I especially) liked to fight about these things. We were kids who were passionate about Wing Commander specifically and who had grown up in the 'wild west' version of the internet... where serving in horrific Usenet flame wars was a badge of honor and where everything was a little bit more intellectual than emotional. Back then, you could have a tooth and nails argument with your friend in the morning and then chat about the new game happily that night. It was a strange culture... and, again no fault modesty, I was always very, very good at arguing. I can take a questionable stance and I can fight it to the death--I'm great with the language, I'm great with selling to the crowd, I'm great at all that. So I guess I hope you know I recognize that and that it makes it a little harder to trust me later on.

So, over the years it has been a hard thing to give up in this age of social networking and general access, even though it was not something that brought any real pleasure. It's a strange problem, really. There are four or five threads going on right now in the general chat that are *amazing*. They make me so happy to get to poinst to them--the one about working on the WCPedia, discussing Flint and Rachel's childhoods... the Heart of the Tiger one that was just started. But what thread is everyone (myself included) coming here to see, everyone wasting their passion on? This one, because it's sexy and gossipy and all that. I have a mess of Privateer 2 videos I should be transcribing right now and I know that would be so much more productive and enjoyable than this... but it's addictive, this sense of conflict. And it's something I want to get past so we can all work on Wing Commander instead.

Anyway--because we fought years ago I think it was hard to move forward and no one really wanted to take that leap. Which was a shame for all parties involved because when we joked about the dark screenshots that was a real criticism, not some hope that we were "nailing" a project we hated. Do you know what I mean?

A few other points:

- In re-reading my posts it seems like I'm 'going after' Tolwyn regardless--I want to step away from that. I do not know him very well, save that he is a Wing Commander fan and that should be good enough for me. I would be happy to talk with him about his project here or anywhere else. If there is a fence to be mended, let's figure out a way to do that and work together?

- Here's a bad point, which falls into the gossip column that is getting this thread so many page views. I received a bizarre, quasi-threatening, schizophrenic e-mail from Psych last night about this thread. It's one of the craziest things I've seen, veering from trying to explain oddly specific points about this thread (Viper81's team bio was supposed to be a joke that someone posted?) to absolutely crazy rants (apparently we hate Psych not because he spent years bullying posters here but because he was an athlete in high school? How would we even know that? Why would we care?*). My reply was that I wasn't interested in talking about any of this--he decided to leave the community and I'm not interested in any more behind the screens maneuvering. I'm happy to chat with him in public about this, if he is interested. (* - by the by, I must add that I hate /myself/ as much as I hate Psych for this, since I was the one who let him do this because I couldn't stand to shut down an 'old friend'.)

... but, moving forward--I wonder if we could get to know each other better? I would LOVE to learn more about the German Wing Commander community and I would finally I think welcome the opportunity to tell you more about myself. If we get to know each other as friends then I think it is much harder to misunderstand things, to fight about things that do not matter and so on. I just want to express somehow that I'm more than some guy who has been angry about Wing Commander--I'm a whole person like you are.

AND NOW

Lars brought up the update with the Saga cruiser, which brings me to a question I had about it. The update mentions lost concept art of the ship... so I'm curious what that is? That's the kind of discussion I'd like to have when there's Saga news, I guess. I pride myself as a Wing Commander historian, so that's the sort of thing that interests me.

(Okay, one last disjointed thought that probably fits in above. I mentioned that I know it's hard to trust me because I'm a slick talker... but I also want to point out, based on something said above, that I don't have some massive goal here. I came to this thread because a friend was worried about posts he saw at WingCenter and I hope we're going to make something positive come from all of this... so I need to express that I'm not looking to get more posters to visit the CZ or more hits for the front page or anything like that. One thing I hope you will learn and believe about me is that I'm an incredibly solitary person at heart. It is honestly an occasional fantasy of mine to be the last Wing Commander fan, still dedicated to writing the wikipedia and updating the news even though no one else will ever see it. I think this is a chance to fix some old mistakes and to make some friends and learn some new things and help each other... but there's nothing more than that to my desire.)
 
I'm sorry Dundradal, I didn't mean to ignore you.

But I can't agree that the problems between the CIC and Saga are long solved. There are some that exist until today.
What you mentioned is part of that (that's because I wonder why you accuse me of ignoring what you said).

-----------------------
EDIT:sadly what Loaf posted while I was writing proves that I'm right. kinda.
-------------------

And I do get your point.
I also think that some if not all of the news updates on wcsaga.com are a bit over the top. But well... not everybody agrees with us. There are quite some people who actually like that semi-professional over-the-top style. So I won't judge Tolwyn for using it, because that updates had a bit of an impact on people who liked WC back in the days but never even heard of the CIC, WingCenter, or that there even is an active Wing Commander community. That's because the updates were "shiny" enough that someone who is not part of the Community actually took a look and visited the website.
For us as community members the whole thing looks a bit silly, that's right. But I see no problem in doing something not only for the regular community but also for those who love Wing Commander but don't visit the CIC regularly.

That's one of the reasons why I think there is still need of discussion, because when you are very active somewhere you don't realize that there are people who think completely different.

Ok, and in case that I misunderstood what you said again:
If you mean that it is wrong to do a mod not only for the active community but also for others, well, I don't share that opinion but that's ok.
 
Hey there,

first I didn't wanted to post anything here, in fact I had no big interest at all posting in this community for quite some years (except my latest models, since I hoped someone wanted to use them) :) Because of my own subjective image I had drawn to myself about some people here. But honestly, about the last few things I was reading here, I couldn't helped myself and now I post anyway. Maybe, the thread could be split, since it isn't really about voice acting anymore.

At start, I want to thank Loaf for your words. I really have to say, you suprised me with that. Sofar I held a heavy personal grudge about you the last few years, because of some evil feelings. I really have made my picture about you years ago, and I can assure you, on the list of people I don't like you were on page one. I'm sorry, but this was just my opinion about you. I think it's about time that I rethink that, and your posting here made me do so, maybe You are right, we are growing up (some more, some less). I still find a light harsh subton in some posts here (not from you Loaf), but I don't want to argue about that. As I thought, a lot from our "troubled" past with this board / people is really a problem of misunderstandings and misinterpretings, which then resulted into open agressions and insulting comments and finally into ignorings. We were all holding a grudge already, so there was no more room left for a normal way to clear it out. Maybe now, that some time has passed, we can do another try. I will try to stay objective in the following, but I will also post my own , deadly honest opinions (because I'm always honest to the core, and even if I often fell on my nose because of this I will not change that). So, if anyone has the feeling to flame me, these are just my "personal" opinions on this matter, not the ones from the WCS Team :)

First, let me say, that I see myself no longer as an active member of the WCS, I see myself more like a member in honor for many years. Shortly after we released the prologue, my life went to hell, and I couldn't do anything active for a long time and more or less left the team. I have tried to make a comeback in the last months, but I must realize, the project has evolved to much since then, so that I can't find myself another way in. In the past, I spent several thousends (really :) ) of working hours into it, and therefore I was anxious of getting it done, it was "my" work, and I wanted it finished. Since I was so long away, I cannot find the same passion to the existing work as before (because there isn't much left from me), which resulted into my complete dropout, I simply don't have the energy for it anymore, so I walked on to something different (doesn't belong here)

But I wanted to adress a few issues from the past, from the time where I was, together with Tolwyn, the fuel that kept the project moving. :) I hope, that we can now finally clear a few things out, and start a normal dialogue like you suggested, Loaf. Also I'm currently trying to remove anything from my life that I feel negative, and this is some of it ;-)

Let's begin with the Nazi Thing. I could post a 10 page long thread about this alone. That post from ghost is, from european view, completly inacceptable. I see now, it was a joke, but when I saw it first, I simply couldn't believe my eyes, and my first thought was "This time, they definitly reached the border of every taste, no matter how much they hate us". I cannot say, how angry It made me when I read that. So I take on Lars suggestion, next time at least make a smilie behind it, but that won't make it much better to be honest. (Btw, I use smilies a lot, but not because I like the neat look, I think they are essential for an only text conversation).

You americans certainly have a different connection to the Nazi stuff. You and the allies have only fought outside your country to end it, and honestly, I'm damn happy you did. I don't even want to think about it, what could have happen if the nazis wouldn't have been stopped or if adolf would have gotten the hand on the first A-bomb, or if germany would have become your testing field for the first. Luckily, the nazis were defeated before, and the a-bomb didn't dropped on us (sorry if any japanese is reading this, I don't meant that dropping it on your head was any better, it shouldn't have been done at all) The only good thing was, that it shocked every one so much, that we haven't dropped another one in about 70 years, and I hope it stays this way . In America it's now a glory and honourable remembering (the war and the victory over hitler germany, not the A-Bomb !), but in Europe, especially germany, polen, russia and others (the jews especially), the memory of the terror and pain never really left. Maybe it's good. We must remember the errors from the past, to prevent them in the future. (again, I could post 10 pages about this as well ) It's now, that more than 70 years have past, the 4th generation is living, but the memory and awe is always present. In School, TV, everywhere. As soon as someone says something racistic, he will be flamed as nazi. The borders are incredibly thin in this issue. The only good thing was, it made my birth possible because my parents are both refugees (my mother from jugoslavia, and my father from hungary, so I'm no "Arier" :) )

Of course there are always assholes, who think different, the so called "Neo-Nazi" (just like americans who still hate black people, or think the indians were threatened well). But this people are not even worth mentioning in my eyes, they are anarchist and should be ignored (and would be the first in the KZ, if Hitler was still alive, because he allowed no such behaviour at all, they just don't realize that). But even politics have to be very very sensitive to say no false words, or other example, no too hard punishments (escpecially germans) can be done in german crime law, or someone will stand up and scream "it's like in the third reich". That's totally idiotic, and one reason why germans law for crime punishments is simply laughable. In America, hitler is often mocked in a cartoon (seen some of them myself, they are awesome funny indeed) . I just say this, to give you people some impressions, for you the nazi stuff is maybe a minor footnote in history, for europeans it's an always present ghost (demon) from the past. So please be careful with such phrases whenever you are talking "international" :)

The leading core in the Saga Team is German. Tolwyn is German, Lars is german, I'm german. We are the members with the longest duty time, and the ones who did most of the work in summary (just pointing out, I don't want to decrease anyones work). A few more are german, some left, some go while the times has passed. Example : Viper61 ! I always liked him, he was helping us in some technical explanation regarding WC and was a really nice guy, and then he vanished, from one day to another, years ago. That also happens in the internet. I spent much online time with Tolwyn throughout the years, and he is a nice guy and a very good friend. I'm always impressed about the energy he is giving into this project, for more than 10 years now.

For a mod, 10 years is incredibly long. On the other hand, there is a simple reason for it. The engine is developing faster then the mod itself. It would have been wise to make a "freeze" at some point, but the benefits from the new code where always greater then the negative aspect about another delay. So, in the result we started all over and over again. Fuck, I think I have made a few models quite a few times. Alone 4 Tallas, and I don't know on how many arrow models i worked :) On the other hand, each new version was way better than the first, so that's a good reason to go on. Luckily, now the game nearly catched up with the engine, and finally they are close to betatest (would be even closer, If I wouldn't have let them down just now, but I cannot change that).

Again for the following, I can now only speak for the time, where I was active and helped Tolwyn with PR and stuff. So if you dislike anything, it only me who is the enemy :) My thinking in that time was always this:

Do we make this game for the WC Community ? Yes, but not alone for you ! We are doing it for everyone who likes playing space action games, no matter if they know WingCommander or not. And be honest, from the new generation of players, not everyone even knows WingCommander these days. So the idea is, to reach as many people as possible, not only the remaining fan core (which I see in the CIC, you are keeping it alive). If we can reach and satisfy these minority (you) too, that would be awesome. But if not, and the rest of the estimated players (+90 %) will like it, then it's fine. That was always my thinking. But because we were WC Fans ourself, we always tried to stay as close to canon as possible. Only if I saw, that staying canon will do any negative effect on overall gameplay (for the other +90% users) i had starting to fight against canon ( I remember a incredibly stupid discussion about a new hellcat model. All four gun barrels where mounted on the bottom in a row, and the two in the middle where a little longer. That made it look good and more asthetical. But noooo, it was against canon, and then we started to argue. Boy, was I angry that day). I'm just writing this to show you, how I was thinking. I cannot say, this is still the major thinking behind the current game idea, but I guess (und sincerly hope) so. For the simple fact, it's logic for the game design. We want to reach as many players as possible, INCLUDING YOU. But NOT ONLY you. If we have to decide between 90% of the users and 10% of the users, we would take the 90%. Everyone would. If there are problems, then we have to think what part must be skipped/changed, to reach the best possible result. I hope you undertand how I see this, I don't think that you, the "real" WC fans are unimportant or nothing worth, the contrary is the case. But not the entire "potential" fanbase has priority. Again, this is ONLY MY view from a marketing point of view, and does not need to reflect the opinion of the current saga team leadership :)

Let's talk about some issues from the past :) You cannot come along with everybody, Not in the internet, and not even in a team sometimes. I cannot say, that everyone in the WCS team has become a friend of mine, some I even dislike(d). But if that's the case, and the work getting done is helping, than it's necessary to put personal feeling aside and try to stay on a neutral "business" base. In the same manner it's handled in forums or even work overall. I cannot say, that I like many of the CIC staff or senior members (yet), for different reasons. Same goes for you, I'm pretty sure that I'm very disliked here because my actions in the past against the freelancer mod. I had my reasons, was very angry and reacted emotional that day. Unfortunately, I should have think more about it, because it turned out, that I attacked a person, that was totally not guilty. I apologized, we cleared that out pretty quickly together and it was forgotten, but I'm sure I left a remaining opinion about my person in some peoples head around here. Same goes for some actions or insults against us. Such things stay in the memory, and form an opinion about these people. One reason, why this board wasn't very visited anymore from any staff member. Why posting here, if it just leads into stress ? People which are interested, will find us without CIC, and if they want to discuss about Saga, it could be done elsewhere. So why should we even bother to risk another stupid forum fight or personal insults that inflict our enthusiasm for working on the game. ? Therefore, we left.

But I was always positively touched, that you are still posting news (which shows the neutral part of journalism), but often they also ended in stupid discussions or insults, so there was also no need for big discussions for us.

Now, there seems to be a huge misfeeling between you Loaf, and Psych. I know that for long, but I don't know any details (and do not really care either). I don't want to say too much about this, or how I stand to Psych, I just want to say this : This isn't, and was never, Psych's Mod. And even if I'm no longer an active member of WCS, I can say, that he is not the one who does any descisions, that others has to follow. Tolwyn has the last word, and he usually picks the right ones. When I joined 9 Years back, Psych helped with technical stuff and information, so that we were staying as close to the canon as possible. Later, we decided to use Psych's story for the game (If I remember, the first setting of WCS was while or past WC4). The story was very good, even if some parts where not to everyones liking. Also, I'm just adressing the "Mission Story" with that. Until today, I haven't even read the Prologue Sidestory. If parts are not to everyones liking, these parts will then be discussed, and corrected whereever we felt in necessary. And certainly the same is happening nowadays. So all I want to say for this matter : Whatever your grudge with Psych might be (and whatever he wrote you as mail according to this), he cannot speak for the entire team. So please, and I point this one to Psych too, if you guys have personal problems, then please clear them personally without dragging other people from the WCS into it. WCS is not involved.

Often, if issues came up, it's a matter of taste. Best example : Dark pictures. Ask the other team members, how often I bitched about those dark images :) Not even because I'm still using a CRT; which makes everything much more darker, I also hated it everytime when people posting images with dark shadows. Yes, Space is black, and it might be very realistic if a ship is only visible on that side that the suns shine on, but on the other side, this is a game, and at least I want to see the shipmodels in the game, because I'm a graphic whore. Personally, I always thought that showing dark images is not the best PR, but not because YOU guys are bitching about it, it was just bad overall, more people would like to see it, and don't want to see it "realistic". This is a game, not a space documentation. But the question is, how are the groups split ? Do more people like it dark, or more people like it black ? We mentioned that you can set this for your liking (or simply turn up gamma) to calm everyone down, but you will never be able to satisfy everyone with a image or even an entire game. Hell, sometimes a new shipmodel is shown on HLP (not WCS related); it's so dark that all I can say seeing this picture is : Wow, nice black flat picture with some engine glows in the middle :) Obviously, dark is "in" these days :) Not my liking, but It looks I'm pretty much alone with that :)

Now, regarding the "press" releases :

I always was very interested that we were mentioned and well known throughout everywhere, and that for a simple fact : There are people out, who don't know about this project. And (seeing todays games), everyone who knows it, will like to play it (if he is interesting in SciFi of course). The only intention behind this is advertising, make more people know, that this mod is existing. So we were just doing them the favour to get the hands on a good and free game. If we reach max downloads, that's the "payment" for the countless working hours we get. No money, no paddles on the back, just the knowledge "yes, I made something cool, that now a lot of people enjoy". Reaching the 100 K downloads for the prologue was a great feeling for me. If only 500 or 1000 peoples would play this, then I would have to admit to myself, that I wasted my time all these years. Certainly, no one will receive any joboffers after the game is finished.

Of course, that's just MY motivation and doesn't need to reflect everyone else (others surely have different motivations). But I always tried and helped that we are not sound to bragging or something, that's what I don't like at all. But I have to agree, that some of the newer news or ship news and also some of the olders one do sound a little strange. I would have phrased them differently, but I simply thought "Just a news anyway", and continued working on the models. I haven't read the most new stuff, and also not listen to any interviews, some might be a little over the top. But it's not so, that we were asking for interviews, they ask us. WingCommander ist still (even while not known widely anymore) one of the best games ever, and if magazines found it that someone is working on WC, then often they approach us, because it's worth mentioning. Also about the "Producer", there is nothing wrong with the term in my (german) eyes :) The producer is the brain and the head behind the team. The one that keeps it running, is giving tasks to the teams, and putting the pieces together into the final picture and is responsible for the success. Not more, not less :)

So, that's just what I wanted to say (for quite some time actually). Again, I'm no longer an active Member of WCS and saying this as a free user, and in defense to my previous team mates, because I think they deserve better. If anyone (from CIC; WCS or whatever feels offended), then just feel offended from me alone, and be man enough and write me in person so that we can clear it out like grown ups :)

Cheers
Starman

P.S. Sorry for typos. I proofreaded, but as usual I wrote way to much :)

(edit)

For a mod

Maybe this should be rephrased ! In my opinion, WCS has left (just like Standoff) the definitions of a mod long ago. We are talking about complete games, that are just using existing, but highly upgraded engines.
 
I don't even think it has a lot to do with the update posts being 'over the top' so much as being 'more of the same.'

With Standoff, even if it was incredibly nerdy at it's core, we got updates about game progress, specular shading and even the occasional screenshot. It had the feel of a labor of love.

I probably can't speak for anyone else here, but it's the little stuff that got me excited about Standoff in the first place. *I* can make pretty pictures, but I'm impressed by 'wrapping up cutscenes for episode 4' not just hitting render in my 3d editor of choice or taking a screenshot in game. Those are neat too, but not if they are the only thing presented.

What I'd like to see from Saga is more of the minutia. Let us know you are still making progress by talking about some of the nerdier aspects of modding. This is the real reason most of us check the CIC daily. It doesn't just have pictures of Lindsey Lohan's mental breakdown like every other blog out there. we get to see papercraft fighters, and resin molds, and updates to existing wing commander games like the high res mod for prophecy.

I'd love to see you guys get in touch with your inner nerd.
 
I'm sorry Dundradal, I didn't mean to ignore you.

But I can't agree that the problems between the CIC and Saga are long solved. There are some that exist until today.
What you mentioned is part of that (that's because I wonder why you accuse me of ignoring what you said).

Then let go of grudges. I stated my issues. Those aren't things that people should get in arms about.

What I mentioned? You mean modders saying they are on the "Red Carpet" for an interview? The thing is I can see how that can meant to be funny, but the thing is given the track record of Saga news releases it fits the "ohh look at us!" mentality.

I said you ignored me because there were not direct replies to what I stated. It's not meant to be a mega-insult, merely pointing out.

-----------------------
EDIT:sadly what Loaf posted while I was writing proves that I'm right. kinda.
-------------------

How? That doesn't make sense.

And I do get your point.
I also think that some if not all of the news updates on wcsaga.com are a bit over the top. But well... not everybody agrees with us. There are quite some people who actually like that semi-professional over-the-top style. So I won't judge Tolwyn for using it, because that updates had a bit of an impact on people who liked WC back in the days but never even heard of the CIC, WingCenter, or that there even is an active Wing Commander community. That's because the updates were "shiny" enough that someone who is not part of the Community actually took a look and visited the website.

Now this doesn't make sense. How is it that the Saga website was able to draw these people in but the larger WC news sites were not? Is that because instead of creating a mod the mod was too busy trying to sell itself to others? I just don't see how "semi-professional over-the-top-style" had this effect.


For us as community members the whole thing looks a bit silly, that's right. But I see no problem in doing something not only for the regular community but also for those who love Wing Commander but don't visit the CIC regularly.

I can assure you that regular people think the same.


Ok, and in case that I misunderstood what you said again:
If you mean that it is wrong to do a mod not only for the active community but also for others, well, I don't share that opinion but that's ok.

No, that's not what I was getting at. My point was that Saga is supposed to be a WC mod, yet they have no presence (or even attempt at) on the CIC where the majority of wingnuts come. Instead, wingnuts see "press releases" and "interviews on the red carpet" coming out that sound not aimed at wingnuts at all, but instead seem to be aimed at getting attention for the modmakers themselves. If a mod brings more people into the community that's great, but you have to remember that the only reason there is a Saga mod is because there is a Wingnut community. It is wrong however, to do a mod that isn't aimed for the community but is instead a vehicle of self-promotion. Why do you think EA had the reaction it did when it saw the Saga releases? That should be setting off a light bulb in your head.....
 
I think Starman explained it better than I did, so I wont try again now.

But just as I said before, I think you have some valid points there and I also agree with you at some of them. For example with the "red carpet interview"-thing. That has various reasons.
However, I agree with Starman when it comes so the audience. I really like the CIC community despite its year-long grudge against Saga, but limiting the WC community to the people who are active at the CIC sounds wrong to me (again, that's just my opinion).

But I am not the one in the team who has to decide which way to go when it comes to communication with the audience. Also I'm a totally different person than Starman and would for example be happy with just some 500 people seeing what I spent hundreds of work hours for.
But I can also understand why someone thinks different. Saga is a chance to celebrate what Origin gave us years ago. It is a chance to tell everybody that there are still people who like WC, like space combat and want to play that. Maybe if 200,000 people or more download and play Saga there will be people at EA who think about releasing another official WC, with all the things in it that I loved years ago: Action, story, fancy graphics and cutscenes.
I would be happy with that.

My work on Saga was mainly doing some medals, squad logos and interface work, and I also did some testing, a bit on the uniforms and helped with the German translation. So I didn't do much (just a few hundred hours compared to Tolwyn's and other's countless hours of working on Saga), but I flinch every time somebody claims that the Saga team is just a bunch off assholes who piss over the community and want to promote themselves. The work I did was for the community, to be part of something that will be remembered in a positive way. A work of WC- and space-combat fans for exactly those people who played WC back in the last century, loved it, and were disappointed of what happened then. And for all the other people who like kicking ass in space.
 
Just to come back to the original topic I will be a bit lazy and just copy past what I wrote in our forum at the CIC about voice-requests.

We have received lots of feedback and files over the time. Espacialy the last request along with the images brought us a lot of feedback.
Seems like people like to take a look at who the voice before they apply ^_^

Anyway Tolwyn is currently in contact with about 60 different voiceactors, sorting out who plays what role and sending around the scripts.

So thanks to everyone who has send in his or her files but its time that we close our request topic for the time beeing.
 
However, I agree with Starman when it comes so the audience. I really like the CIC community despite its year-long grudge against Saga, but limiting the WC community to the people who are active at the CIC sounds wrong to me (again, that's just my opinion).

Again what are you talking about? There is no grudge. If there is it is only in your heads. If there is such a grudge why is Saga on the front page so often?

Our biggest complaint, Saga was too dark to see anything...wow that's really a deep seated hatred. It sounds like someone can't take constructive criticism....

I'm not saying you just do it for the Wingnut community but that should be your core focus. Saga would not exist without the community and I think you need to understand that. I don't want it only geared for those who here, but those should be who you are aiming to award with your work. If you don't want to treat those people to Saga then who are you really doing it for and why? Because 99.99999% of mods are aimed at giving back to the communities. I'm not saying limit it, but these people should be your core audience and the only reason they know anything about Saga is that it gets front-paged.

But I am not the one in the team who has to decide which way to go when it comes to communication with the audience. Also I'm a totally different person than Starman and would for example be happy with just some 500 people seeing what I spent hundreds of work hours for.

I don't think that's the case though. You keep saying that limiting Saga to the wingnut community is wrong. But then you say if "500 people seeing what I spent hundreds..." so which is it? I keep stating not to limit it to the wingnut community but instead be a part of the wingnut community. Now Saga is some weird thing in its own world that the CIC tries to inject back in the community with front page stories.


My work on Saga was mainly doing some medals, squad logos and interface work, and I also did some testing, a bit on the uniforms and helped with the German translation. So I didn't do much (just a few hundred hours compared to Tolwyn's and other's countless hours of working on Saga), but I flinch every time somebody claims that the Saga team is just a bunch off assholes who piss over the community and want to promote themselves. The work I did was for the community, to be part of something that will be remembered in a positive way. A work of WC- and space-combat fans for exactly those people who played WC back in the last century, loved it, and were disappointed of what happened then. And for all the other people who like kicking ass in space.

No one said you pissed all over the place or assholes. I definitely said I think Saga is more a promotional vehicle than a fan-mod. You seem to put a lot of heart this statement, but then I can say that if that is the case why aren't you on the CIC talking about the latest Saga work completed? Or showing something off to the fans that gave you the ability to do what you are doing? Instead there's the stupid press releases and red carpet crap. I'm hoping you are seeing the differences here.

I've spent the last few posts basically screaming for Saga to get off their asses and jump back into the wingnut community. Several others have tried to do the same but it always falls on deaf ears. Use your damn forum and post updates (not press releases) let wingnuts know what you are doing. If you can't handle criticism (much of it very valid, dark screens, that stupid ass long convo in the prologue that was unskippable, having all the keys not mapped to WC) then I don't know what to tell you because all of that is aimed at IMPROVING Saga not just being dicks.
 
Just to come back to the original topic I will be a bit lazy and just copy past what I wrote in our forum at the CIC about voice-requests.

Thanks for the update, gevatter Lars - but while that solves the original post, I think this thread has gone away from that somewhat.
 
Just to come back to the original topic I will be a bit lazy and just copy past what I wrote in our forum at the CIC about voice-requests.

Awe man! I've been away for a week and not had a chance to record an audition :( was going to do it this evening! Oh well, fingers crossed this is the last hurdle before release :)
 
@LeHah
I know that the topic has gone another way but I think I have heard enough of both sides and think its time to move on or in this case come back to the original topic.

@Madman
You might still give it a try. I doubt that Tolwyn will notice one more mail or less. ^_^
 
@Dundradal:
What seems to be me stating two contrary things is much simpler: One is my opinion and the other one is my explanation of what the Saga team does.
As I said I'm not the one who decides which course to take. I said I'd so some things differently but I understand (and want to explain to you) why the leaders of Saga decided to do it like they do.

Also as you already noticed I think there was a grudge between the CIC and Saga (or at least some important people here and there) even before I joined the community. And I also say some of it still exists.
You said that you disagree with that, so I think I understand why at least half of my explanations don't make sense to you. I can't change that, sorry.
But I think we could prove that. I just don't want to dig out all that old crap now. I can do that and send it to you as a PM if you want. I just don't want to open old wounds if possible. We are on a good way now and I want to pursue that instead of digging through old threads and so on.

And yes, you are right: There have been great improvements since... let's say 2007 or so. And I agree that some people in "team Saga" still think the CIC hates Saga. I'm not part of that group but... you know... It is hard to overcome such things when they have lasted for years.

I hope that was a bit clearer now than my earlier postings. After all those years my english is still worse than it should be, I think. Especially in complex discussions.

EDIT:
Also I agree with Lars, I want to go back to the original topic if possible. We can continue our discussion in another thread or via PM if you wish.
 
Also as you already noticed I think there was a grudge between the CIC and Saga (or at least some important people here and there) even before I joined the community. And I also say some of it still exists.
You said that you disagree with that, so I think I understand why at least half of my explanations don't make sense to you. I can't change that, sorry.
But I think we could prove that. I just don't want to dig out all that old crap now. I can do that and send it to you as a PM if you want. I just don't want to open old wounds if possible. We are on a good way now and I want to pursue that instead of digging through old threads and so on.

How many times do I have to say it? There is no grudge. If there is a grudge it's coming from one direction...

You are also talking about things from years ago. I already know what you are talking about but I'm pretty sure the entire damn olive tree has been extended in this thread multiple times. I do not want any PMs about it. LOAF already stated if we are going to do this let's do it in the open. Instead of holding onto old grudges why not move forward and get back to being a part of the WC community instead of this weird project that has connections to WC.

And yes, you are right: There have been great improvements since... let's say 2007 or so. And I agree that some people in "team Saga" still think the CIC hates Saga. I'm not part of that group but... you know... It is hard to overcome such things when they have lasted for years.

You've just proved the point I've been making for several posts. It's not coming from here. It is difficult to overcome, but it's not impossible. Grow up and move on. I've gotten into heated screaming matches with every member of the CIC staff and have been banned from the CZ and #wingnut multiple times back in the day. Do I hold that against them? No. I still come here several times a day, I'm in #wingnut all the time and I have no hard feelings against them. What's done is done.

Enough of the "ooohhh they were mean to us in 2005!" Yeah awesome...that was six years ago. Get over it.

I find it particularly interesting that no one else from the core Saga team has not posted. It's only people on the fringe that seem to be replying. That says a lot.

I hope that was a bit clearer now than my earlier postings. After all those years my english is still worse than it should be, I think. Especially in complex discussions.

EDIT:
Also I agree with Lars, I want to go back to the original topic if possible. We can continue our discussion in another thread or via PM if you wish.

This thread has already been transformed. Keep the discussion here. If there is a need to split the thread I'm sure an admin will do it.
 
A little something I like to say here and what I allready said over at the WingCenter where this discussion is also followed very closely is this.

Personaly I think that everything that has to be said about the "relationship/bad press" topic has been said.

Now is the time to take what I heard and do something with it.
As it is the usual case I think there is a compromise to what has been said and what has to be done.

First of all thanks to Loaf for beeing so open minded. Its something that made me rethink my opinions and I will try to take this chance that has been opend up here.
To be more precice to what I have in mind is the following.

Talking with Tolwyn we decided that the website news will stay as they are.
Let me also tell the reason why.
From the feedback we got from people like the magazins to yesterdays mail of a voice-casting-agency that offered us their help, these feedback where not only positive as it brings the project further along its way, its that these people said that they wouldn't have concidered talking to us if it wouldn't have been for how we write the news.
So I hope you can understand our decision here.

As for the communication with the CICs community. I will try to break the ice slowly. It has been quite for such a long time and I think what we currently have, this state of "what should we do" is kinda fragile. So I want to test the "waters" first before going deeper into it. ^_^

I will now go over to our board at the CIC and see what can be done.
So please people. Stay calm, stop argueing everything to death and lets get a bit more productive, shall we?
 
A little something I like to say here and what I allready said over at the WingCenter where this discussion is also followed very closely is this.

You realize how creepy this sounds? Why hasn't Tolwyn had an appearance to talk about these things? Staying in the shadows isn't helping.

Talking with Tolwyn we decided that the website news will stay as they are.
Let me also tell the reason why.
From the feedback we got from people like the magazins to yesterdays mail of a voice-casting-agency that offered us their help, these feedback where not only positive as it brings the project further along its way, its that these people said that they wouldn't have concidered talking to us if it wouldn't have been for how we write the news.
So I hope you can understand our decision here.

I do not and actually think it continues to support the thesis I stated earlier. I see talk of "gaming magazines" and "voice-casting agency" now why the hell does a mod need that? This is what professional games do, not fan mods.

They didn't consider talking to you when they thought you were a mod. However those news stories portray Saga as an all new game based on all this new creative material based on WC stuff. You are straying far too close to the danger zone with that stuff. Why were the other WC mods able to get by without this? Why does Saga need it to move forward? Standoff was done entirely in house. There wasn't appeals to voice acting forums and press releases to gaming mags. That just looks like an attempt to self-promote and use Saga to get somewhere else. Why not instead appeal to the WC community for the help you'd need? It clearly seems there are many that want to help here....


As for the communication with the CICs community. I will try to break the ice slowly. It has been quite for such a long time and I think what we currently have, this state of "what should we do" is kinda fragile. So I want to test the "waters" first before going deeper into it. ^_^

Oh give me a break. Be an adult. Stop the pussyfooting and just move forward. It's not like we've never met. Just keep the community informed. It sounds like there is a fear of criticism or something from over there. People have opinions. I mean we are still arguing over WC2 and WC3 more than a decade later. It's not going to end the world.

Post a progress report of where the mod stands. It would be really great to create a progress chart like Standoff had to show fans what was left. I don't want to see model showcases or screenshot threads. Give us some meat as to what's left. Let us know some cool things you've worked in. You aren't giving up trade secrets, but instead sharing with the community.

I will now go over to our board at the CIC and see what can be done.
So please people. Stay calm, stop argueing everything to death and lets get a bit more productive, shall we?

I'm pretty sure that has been the goal of many of the posters here. I've continually called for moving beyond things from 5 or 6 years ago. But there's always something else.

I believe I've said all I want to say about this. I hope Saga will start being active in the community that gave them the ability to do what they are doing and will knock off the dumber stuff.
 
I have to disagree with you Dundradal. At least in some points.

You realize how creepy this sounds? Why hasn't Tolwyn had an appearance to talk about these things? Staying in the shadows isn't helping.

Granted!

I do not and actually think it continues to support the thesis I stated earlier. I see talk of "gaming magazines" and "voice-casting agency" now why the hell does a mod need that? This is what professional games do, not fan mods.

I can understand the Saga-Team here. Why not contacting gaming magazines or "using" the personal network? Just because it is a fan-modification, it doesn't have to be all DIY. Sure, there are fans, that want to help. And those fans are being contacted as well. AFAIK, there are some CZ-members, who are being considered to be in the cast. I guess, the Saga-guys consider this project their baby, their piece of art. And they want to take care, that they used the best resources, they can get. Wouldn't everyone be happy, if they get Mark Hamill to do some Voice-Overs? Who knows? That would be a great fan-service. And even if they have to hire and pay him. That would be some great shit. I think, it's more than okay to say: "Okay, this is our project. We want to do the best we can. Let's see, with whom we can work together"

As long, as they are not selling the product, it is a great fan-service.

Oh give me a break. Be an adult. Stop the pussyfooting and just move forward. It's not like we've never met. Just keep the community informed. It sounds like there is a fear of criticism or something from over there. People have opinions. I mean we are still arguing over WC2 and WC3 more than a decade later. It's not going to end the world.

Now that's over the top, I think. He clearly says, that he wants to do it better. And he clearly says, that there were some things in the past. Perhaps it is as you said: There is no grudge coming from you, but perhaps from them. And that won't change from now to then. He wants to do things in a different way, now let's see, what happens.
 
I know everyone has been waiting for me to weigh in on this thread again... but if you are hoping that I spent the last day in deep thought about these issues, I am sorry to disappoint: I've been playing Privateer 2 for the WCPedia. :)

I don't think there is much in my power to add. I want to ask LeHah and Dundradal to try and keep an open mind about Saga. It is a big step that Lars is willing to come here and talk about it, answer questions and so on. We should treat his decision to do that with the respect it deserves rather than as a way to bring back old arguments. If we are going to fight--and I'm not so naive as to think people will stop fighting just because I ask them--make sure it's about something that matters.

So: I want to 'officially' thank Starman©, Lars and Aginor for their posts, just so you know that your willingness to come here after all this really is appreciated. It's a great step, and more than anything I suppose I could do (I could go post to WingCenter if you want, but it seems like it would be insulting not to speak German).

** One important note that might be confusing someone else (or maybe I'm just especially dumb): I did not, until the other day, realize that there are two Starmen (Starman© and Starman). I had been speaking to the *other* Starman about releasing Wing Commander ebooks a few months ago, all the while thinking he was the one from Saga and that we were friends now. Oops.

I see things mentioned here about the FreeLancer mod and specific years and incidents and I did want to say that I have absolutely no memory for the specifics of past drama. I honestly do not remember Saga fighting with Freelancer or when I've yelled at who or why. I sometimes look up old posts and am angry about how I treated people in the past. So I wanted to say where my head was in all that. I will go the grave with a copy of Fleet Action burned into my head... but this stuff, as important as it feels at the time, leaks out immediately.

Which brings me to one other point. Dundradal says:

I've gotten into heated screaming matches with every member of the CIC staff and have been banned from the CZ and #wingnut multiple times back in the day. Do I hold that against them? No. I still come here several times a day, I'm in #wingnut all the time and I have no hard feelings against them. What's done is done.

This is true history. It may not matter to you now (and it doesn't have anything to do with Saga or voice acting), but I wanted to say it here in the open, for the world to see that I am honestly sorry about treating you badly in the past. It really is something that comes to mind once in a while and that I cringe about. You are a good man and one of the most dedicated WingNuts there has ever been.
 
I don't think there is much in my power to add. I want to ask LeHah and Dundradal to try and keep an open mind about Saga. It is a big step that Lars is willing to come here and talk about it, answer questions and so on. We should treat his decision to do that with the respect it deserves rather than as a way to bring back old arguments. If we are going to fight--and I'm not so naive as to think people will stop fighting just because I ask them--make sure it's about something that matters.

I was at work thinking about how to reply to this thread - if at all - and had been thinking something similar I guess. I was going to ask Dund to back away from the discussion, not because I particularly am siding with the Saga people but because, Dund is old-school. He often comes across as brash and it may sound like he's being antagonistic... maybe even more so when translated through google or babelfish or something. But what's really there is just frustration, and a passion for Wing Commander. I'm sure passion is at least one thing the Saga folks should appreciate.

This does not mean Dund doesn't have a specific issue he was trying to address. I completely understand the frustration. I've never really been vocal one way or the other regarding Saga except perhaps voicing similar frustration on IRC amongst friends.

My own particular history with Saga has been pretty much from the sidelines. I've observed the drama, and rhetoric. but I don't really care about any of that. I'm CIC staff now, but I wasn't involved at the time and really don't care about the drama now that I am a more involved WC community member. I've been impressed with the obvious care that went in to alot of the art work in the prologue or stuff seen in the news.

So where does the frustration come in? Consider the reaction to Dundradel's critiscm: Saga and or Tolwyn's reaction is pretty much the same as it's always been. "Thanks but no thanks... we'll just keep doing things our own way." It was the same thing when people complained about no autopilot in the prologue and having to remap the unneccessarily cluttered key bindings. It's the same now. Yes, you need to have vision and stick to it, but is that really how you react when it's pointed out that you're methods are getting you the *wrong* kind of attention?

Now Dund mentions a specfic news update the Saga team made. The point wasn't that you shouldn't do news updates or interviews. I would even encourage that. The issue he had is with the language of the update, and it's been that way with nearly all the Saga updates whether it's casting calls, image releases or trailers.

The issue I personally have with the language is that it seems to misrepresent what your MOD is about. Words like "red carpet" and "exclussive access" are self-aggrandizing nonsense. It makes it sound like you're prettending your MOD is more important than it is. Worst of all, it also feels (perhaps unjustified) like there's a layer of deception going on. Why are people volunteering professional work for a MOD? If I asked myself the question, then I'm certainly not the only one asking.

I really hope I'm wrong, but it's really hard to dismiss that kind of feeling when it's pretty clear that SAGA has a ton of work to do. It's no where near done. I'd love to believe it has a chance to be out by this coming Christmas but every time we finally get insight into what's left to be done it's clear that there's so much more to do. So if so much work was left who the heck put their stamp on a trailer that said "coming this winter" ? Why not ask the person to kindly redo it with an ambiguous date like "coming 2011"?

Barely a month later Tolwyn posts to a voice acting club forum asking for voice actors. That's fine in and of itself, but he posts a spring release date as a goal. I'd be pretty surprised if that happened. Without any dialogue turned in or converted to the right format? Without a single mission being complete? With all the voice acting calls that have gone out over the years, you would think that at the very least the main character wouldn't be up for grabs. The legnth of the character list seems like every role is being recast. Again? Really? I just cant help but feel awful for all the people that volunteered their time to do voices and models the many other times a call went out for help.

It just feels like you're building your whole project backwards. You figure out your structure and make it playable with text dialogue and *then* fancy textures and voices are the *last* thing done. I realize it's a learning process, and maybe alot of the old assets were unusable, but none of us here see that. What we see are smarmy news releases that on the surface make everyone think that more progress is being made than is really fair.

Yes it's hard to show people the progress of parts of a project that aren't inherently visual. What people like dund want to see isn't necessarily the actual game (though a release would be nice;)) but rather that he knows actual work was done on making a playable release rather than just that the models were redone for the fifteenth time. :).

I hope you don't take offense to this. I wish that you can understand that I really want you to have insight into why people feel the way they do.
 
Back
Top