Various issues found in WCP/SO

Iceblade

Admiral
How is it possible for the Nephilim in and out of a navpoint without there being a jumpnode nearby. Is there anything in the canon to explain this, even with regards to Priv.2 information?

Another thing I found rather odd was the size of the capships. They look a little to small to fit the new standard fighters. How anybody could fit a 6 devastators on top of the other craft on board the Cerberus is beyond me. You can forget fitting Tigersharks on board those Plunketts as well. Has anybody checked the in-game sizes using the fighters or at least speed and the clock as a measure? I can understand of they scaled down the size on the capships for engine and gameplay purposes, but I would to know what ya'll think. (btw, I see similar problems in WC3, where is the room below the hanger to fit those fighters?

In addition, what is the official canon behind the high speeds and autopiloting? Is the mission timer supposed to be indicative of just our time or the whole mission (being maybe a few seconds off as it doesn't take into account in between nav travel times)? I find it rather odd how often the Cerberus to left alone with no fighter cover. Granted it is supposed to be rather hidden from the bugs and pretty close to where we are assaulting. The fact that we always seem to be able to return to the Cerberus or Midway rather quickly even though they complain of being attacked, must indicate that our wing has very quick patrol times. Your thoughts?

What is with the size of the WCP craft, they are huge compared to the Excalibur (WC4 and by extension WCSO)? Don't they both have both m/am engines?

The WCP "squadrons" (aka wings), why do they all of sudden have names like squadrons (the black widow wing?)? Also have they always called the flights (like alpha flight, beta flight, etc.) wings (eg alpha wing, beta wing, etc.)?

Okay, how are the different wings (squadrons) split with regards to who flies which craft. Very often it seems pilots switch between different fighters and bombers. (This is fine for craft the Diamondbacks and Black Widows....the Shrike is not that bad from a maneuverability perspective (granted, they don't have the fast turning of the Panther), but it doesn't seem like it would be that hard to switch between the Panther and Shrike. The Vampire and Devastator on the other hand are polar opposites, the devastator is practically a medium corvette with afterburners. So do we take this to mean that aside from a select group of pilots, that every pilot only flies one particular craft or do we assume that each pilot has two craft (maybe three if you include the wasp)? Man, this would be so much easier to figure out if they had written a book for Prophecy like they did the last two. Oh well.

I think I will do some number crunching with the squadrons and get back you ya'll on the pilot number thing.
 
The squadrons in WC1 and 2 had names but they didn't seem to bother with them in 3 and 4, probably because the character was rated to fly any of the fighters and therefore didn't move from squadron to squadron with each promotion.

If I remember the tech correctly, the bugs could jump in and out of a system without a jump node nearby because the jump point still exists. The node just serves to mark the point's location and augment the navigational data needed for the jump. It's theoretically possible for any jump drive equipped ship to cross an uncharted jump point. Then again I may have misunderstood your question and I may have the tech wrong.
 
Well, it was just the fact that some Devil Rays and Barracudas actually in and surprise my wing there was still some distance away from the jumppoint (jumpnav) when the Cerberus was leaving Sirius.

Anyway, here is the pilot rundown as per the dev docs:
18 Black Widow
17 Diamondback
16 Wolfpack

Add onto that 4 for Diamondback (Maestro, Dallas, Stiletto, and Zero) and 3 for Black Widow (Hawk, Spyder, and Maniac)? Quick question, though, wasn't Roulette in the wolfpack? The comm_characters dock has her in Black Widow. Then of course we have Casey in Diamondback.

Meaning 21, 22, and 16 for a grand total of 59 pilots.

So let's suppose, each pilot has three craft a piece, that gives us 84 pilots. Well, that means that we are only missing 25 pilots. Interestingly enough, if we split these up onto the various wings, we get 28 per wing. How nice and even. That actually works to half each wing into two squadrons of 14, a rather nice number for post-Kilrathi war wings.

Another way of looking at this is having 84 pilots per wing and each wing is split up into 3 squadrons with each squadron piloting one craft (piranha, wasp, or tigershark...panther, wasp, etc.) The great heroes (Maestro, Zero, Stiletto and Casey can't seem to stay put in one squadron or another and keep switching until they get promoted and the intrawing switching continues behind the scenes. :p crazy, but it makes more sense than every pilot has three fighters for themselves.
 
How is it possible for the Nephilim in and out of a navpoint without there being a jumpnode nearby. Is there anything in the canon to explain this, even with regards to Priv.2 information?

I think you're looking at a mixture of ships just arriving on scene and using conventional jump points.

Another thing I found rather odd was the size of the capships. They look a little to small to fit the new standard fighters.

Prophecy is the first game that actually attempts to properly scale fighters and capships in the game engine.

In addition, what is the official canon behind the high speeds and autopiloting? Is the mission timer supposed to be indicative of just our time or the whole mission (being maybe a few seconds off as it doesn't take into account in between nav travel times)? I find it rather odd how often the Cerberus to left alone with no fighter cover. Granted it is supposed to be rather hidden from the bugs and pretty close to where we are assaulting. The fact that we always seem to be able to return to the Cerberus or Midway rather quickly even though they complain of being attacked, must indicate that our wing has very quick patrol times. Your thoughts?

I think you're overusing the concept of "canon" and trying to create explanations for things that aren't issues to begin with. The mission clock in Prophecy doesn't count when you're in autopilot. There's no reason to believe that anything unusual happens during autopilot in Prophecy compared to any other game.

What is with the size of the WCP craft, they are huge compared to the Excalibur (WC4 and by extension WCSO)? Don't they both have both m/am engines?

Not necessarily, but what would that have to do with it? The Excalibur is actually larger than most craft in WCP.

Okay, how are the different wings (squadrons) split with regards to who flies which craft. Very often it seems pilots switch between different fighters and bombers. (This is fine for craft the Diamondbacks and Black Widows....the Shrike is not that bad from a maneuverability perspective (granted, they don't have the fast turning of the Panther), but it doesn't seem like it would be that hard to switch between the Panther and Shrike. The Vampire and Devastator on the other hand are polar opposites, the devastator is practically a medium corvette with afterburners. So do we take this to mean that aside from a select group of pilots, that every pilot only flies one particular craft or do we assume that each pilot has two craft (maybe three if you include the wasp)?

This is nothing new for Prophecy. We see pilots rotate between very different fighters and bombers often throughout the series. Pilots are qualified to fly multiple fighters in WC.

The squadrons in WC1 and 2 had names but they didn't seem to bother with them in 3 and 4, probably because the character was rated to fly any of the fighters and therefore didn't move from squadron to squadron with each promotion.

There were four squadrons on the Victory in WC3 - Red, Blue, Green & Gold.

It's theoretically possible for any jump drive equipped ship to cross an uncharted jump point.

It's not just theoretically possible. Even as civilians in Privateer, we have missions where our job is to jump and explore uncharted jump points.

So let's suppose, each pilot has three craft a piece, that gives us 84 pilots. Well, that means that we are only missing 25 pilots. Interestingly enough, if we split these up onto the various wings, we get 28 per wing. How nice and even. That actually works to half each wing into two squadrons of 14, a rather nice number for post-Kilrathi war wings.

This math is pretty fuzzy. The basic size of a wing does not change. If you had six squadrons aboard a ship, they'd just be the same wing (with obvious exceptions such as when the Midway borrows the Wolf Pack from the Eisen, but the Midway was designed for three full wings and roughly 250 pilots).

Another way of looking at this is having 84 pilots per wing and each wing is split up into 3 squadrons with each squadron piloting one craft (piranha, wasp, or tigershark...panther, wasp, etc.) :p crazy, but it makes more sense than every pilot has three fighters for themselves.

That's not crazy, that's how it works, except for there being three squadrons among 84 pilots. We see multiple squadrons flying the same fighter on the same carrier in almost every game.
 
I think you're looking at a mixture of ships just arriving on scene and using conventional jump points.

Still, I was in a nav still quite distant from the jumppoint. Not to mention there were several occasions where tritons jumped when there was no jumppoint. I guess maybe the ability to jump doesn't require being that close to the jumpbuoy's location, but that really doesn't make any sense with the canon from the Kilrathi era.


Prophecy is the first game that actually attempts to properly scale fighters and capships in the game engine.

Hmmm.....well I did get about 11000 kilometers for the Plunkett (or if kps is actually mps within a nav, then 11000 meters). This is still off by an order of ten, but the oddity with which the speeds and sizes are handled, I would guess about 1100 (which more accurately measured would probably be 1200 meters for the ship).

Quick question, is it in canon the explanation I have previously read regarding the open or closed swoops (sp?) and autopilot, which changes the speeds of the craft by several orders of magnitude? Or even the idea that the craft go at a reduced speed when at a navpoint?

Not necessarily, but what would that have to do with it? The Excalibur is actually larger than most craft in WCP.

Not in SO. I see in the canon (or at least the CIC's database) where it is supposed to be almost twice as long as most WCP craft, but it looks like the same length as the Vampire. They must have shortened the later productions models. (btw, I was using the ship switcher and simulator of SO to examine this) (also the Thud is about in the same boat) They really should have shrunk the size of those craft in WCP/SO, you are just too large when compared to everything, especially the Plunkett. How the heck can you even land a tigershark on those things?

This is nothing new for Prophecy. We see pilots rotate between very different fighters and bombers often throughout the series. Pilots are qualified to fly multiple fighters in WC.

Yeah, well usually each squadron flys just one craft or two craft. Just seemed odd to have fighters pilots so casually jump to flying heavy bombers. Then again we had a lot of fighter jumping on the Victory that was done for gameplay and was changed for something more reasonable in the novel.

There were four squadrons on the Victory in WC3 - Red, Blue, Green & Gold.

That is what I mean, whole flight wings usually don't get a title, but then again I guess we can assume that the Diamondbacks, Black Widows, and the Wolf Pack are not separate wings but actually three squadrons that comprise one of the Midway's three wings. This actually makes quite a bit more sense and doesn't require saying the terminology they used for WCP was completely wrong in most insistences in WCP with regard to wings/squadrons (except of course the part about Maniac being the squadron commander and actually being the wing commander for both the DBacks and Widows (and any of the other squadrons of the wing).


It's not just theoretically possible. Even as civilians in Privateer, we have missions where our job is to jump and explore uncharted jump points.

Sorry, never played Priv1, so it is indeed completely possible.
 
Still, I was in a nav still quite distant from the jumppoint. Not to mention there were several occasions where tritons jumped when there was no jumppoint. I guess maybe the ability to jump doesn't require being that close to the jumpbuoy's location, but that really doesn't make any sense with the canon from the Kilrathi era.

What are you talking about? You only see one or two games with jump buoys around. In most games random "unmarked" jump points are used as nav points.

Quick question, is it in canon the explanation I have previously read regarding the open or closed swoops (sp?) and autopilot, which changes the speeds of the craft by several orders of magnitude? Or even the idea that the craft go at a reduced speed when at a navpoint?

Yes, but it isn't a necessary or even necessarily relevant concept for Prophecy here.

Yeah, well usually each squadron flys just one craft or two craft. Just seemed odd to have fighters pilots so casually jump to flying heavy bombers. Then again we had a lot of fighter jumping on the Victory that was done for gameplay and was changed for something more reasonable in the novel.

Again, this isn't a Prophecy issue. We see this frequently throughout the entire series.

That is what I mean, whole flight wings usually don't get a title,

We don't know that. We don't fly off huge multi-wing megacarriers in prior games, so it never comes up.

but then again I guess we can assume that the Diamondbacks, Black Widows, and the Wolf Pack are not separate wings but actually three squadrons that comprise one of the Midway's three wings. This actually makes quite a bit more sense

If you assume that, then you break a dozen other references in the game. Being less strict with the squadron/wing terminology - treating each of the "squadrons" as prior games would use "wings" - fixes all that.
 
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