Tarawa vs. Victory

[Bandit LOAF]

Experience is sure to be an issue as well - Eisen states repeatedly that the Victory is falling apart and has been giving poor assignments as a result. The Tarawa meanwhile, has a battle-tested crew that had to fight through hell and high water just to get back into Human Controlled space.

By 2669, though, Victory was getting incredibly experienced personnel - part of Tolwyn's plan for supporting the Behemoth. The fighter wing assigned to the Victory in late 2668 (36th FW) was run by highly experienced veterans... Maniac Marshall, Ralgha nar Hhallas, etc.

(... and, of course, it might be worth noting that Tarawa ends the war crippled while Victory goes deep into Kilrathi space multiple times and makes it out scratch free multiple times in the same period...)

 

[Ijuin]

What do you mean exactly...

I believe that he is implying that when being flown by Landreich personnel, a carrier can launch faster than when flown by Confleet personnel due to Landreicher's tendency to cut back on safety margins. A Landreicher crew would probably only check over things once or twice instead of three times, and would allow less time for a fighter to get clear before launching the next one if they were in a hurry, for example.

 

[rtheriaque]

I normally dislike such comparisons, but whereas it's Friday morning at work...

The outcome depends on the type of action we're discussing. Ship vs. ship? Wing vs. wing? Edge in personnel?

History shows us that the most capable ship or force doesn't necessarily win. The first to locate or strike is often the victor, and even then much depends on circumstance. A study of the Battle of Midway shows that circumstance is often the critical element. The number of things that went right for the US force borders on the supernatural: the delayed Japanese recon flight from the Tone, the suicidal attack of the first torpedo squadron that lowered the Japanese CAP to water level, Nagumo's indecision with strike loadouts causing delays... It's incredible.

With two carriers fighting as intended, it would come down to first strike. An alpha strike off a deck arriving to find a light CAP would crush a small carrier before she could get her planes up.

In a ship to ship battle, I'd again look to historical precedent and the "spirit" of Wing Commander (one that seems to mirror WWII rather closely). Victory, being a prewar light carrier, was built as a supplement to a battleship and never as a centerpiece to a fleet. I have to believe she was built to at least participate in a fleet action, and as such be capable of absorbing more punishment (though, to be fair, that punishment would be assumed to be aimed at the fleet's big guns). The transport-based escort carriers of WWII absorbed damage like transports (ie, not particularly well).

So... As a carrier battle? Whoever finds the other carrier first. In a stand-up fight? CVL over CVE.

 

[RogueBanshee]

In a stand-up fight? CVL over CVE.

The probelm with that statement is that Tarawa actually has better anti-capship firepower then Victory. As far as we know all Victory has for anti-capship work is one capship missile launcher and Tarawa has multiple torpedo tubes which means Tarawa has a higher chance of scoring a hit. And if three torpedo hits spread across two days can cripple Concordia then one or two should easily cripple or destroy Victory.

 

[Jason_Ryock]

By 2669, though, Victory was getting incredibly experienced personnel - part of Tolwyn's plan for supporting the Behemoth. The fighter wing assigned to the Victory in late 2668 (36th FW) was run by highly experienced veterans... Maniac Marshall, Ralgha nar Hhallas, etc.

Eh, I don't see it, though. Tarawa had to fight through hell and highwater to accomplish their mission, as a crew. By the end of the mission, even Kevin Tolwyn had come down off his high horse. They had better experiance, I think, because they were in the fight together.

Alot of the people in WC (I remember mostly Bear, but I'm sure there are others) seem to resent being transferred away from the "high profile" ships of the fleet (IE: The Concordia, or the Claw). And I think that would contribute to the Tarawa's better level of...cohesion, I think the word is?...that stems from their experiance.

(... and, of course, it might be worth noting that Tarawa ends the war crippled while Victory goes deep into Kilrathi space multiple times and makes it out scratch free multiple times in the same period...)

...but the Victory didn't nail 5 cat carriers in drydock! And of course, Tarawa will always be First to Kilrah.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Eisen Vs. Bondarevsky yet.

 

[Dundradal]

...but the Victory didn't nail 5 cat carriers in drydock! And of course, Tarawa will always be First to Kilrah.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Eisen Vs. Bondarevsky yet.

6 Carriers in dry dock along with the accompanying construction facilities, a cruiser construction yard, orbital base, and dozens of smaller ships.

 

[Jason_Ryock]

6 Carriers in dry dock along with the accompanying construction facilities, a cruiser construction yard, orbital base, and dozens of smaller ships.

I'd love to know how many other ships they destroyed on their way out. Does anyone have a count? I know there was at least a cruiser.

 

[Dundradal]

I'd love to know how many other ships they destroyed on their way out. Does anyone have a count? I know there was at least a cruiser.

If you are thinking of the cruiser I think you are, then that one was killed by Grierson and the Intrepid right before the Concordia shows up.

They might also kill one in Kilrah, but not sure off the top of my head. I'm going through ER slowly so that I can finish fleshing out the Bondarevsky WCPedia entry.

 

[floundericiousMI]

I'd love to know how many other ships they destroyed on their way out. Does anyone have a count? I know there was at least a cruiser.

The Kagimasha (?) hit a Kilrathi frigate (destroyer? it's been a while!) head on during their high speed run after the gas-giant tractor beam slingshot trick in the Kilrah system.

 

[Jason_Ryock]

If you are thinking of the cruiser I think you are, then that one was killed by Grierson and the Intrepid right before the Concordia shows up.

They might also kill one in Kilrah, but not sure off the top of my head. I'm going through ER slowly so that I can finish fleshing out the Bondarevsky WCPedia entry.

They dumped one right before their run into the Gas Giant, I believe. Which was the one I was thinking about.

 

[powell99]

For me it's the Victory hands down. The Victory does have the Top crew, and while the Tarawa may have been the first to Kilrah, but the Victory's Air Wing launched the strike that killed a planet. Something has to be said of the fact that it was an older ship and it survived the War intact.

 

[Dundradal]

The Kagimasha (?) hit a Kilrathi frigate (destroyer? it's been a while!) head on during their high speed run after the gas-giant tractor beam slingshot trick in the Kilrah system.

IIRC it was a fighter that it collided with that caused its destruction (Sartha is jumping to mind but not sure)

Anybody got their ER handy?

 

[rtheriaque]

You nailed it, Dundradal- she was kamikazied by a Sartha.

"Projected impact on Kagimasha!"

 

[frostytheplebe]

For me it's the Victory hands down. The Victory does have the Top crew, and while the Tarawa may have been the first to Kilrah, but the Victory's Air Wing launched the strike that killed a planet. Something has to be said of the fact that it was an older ship and it survived the War intact.

Yeah but the Victory had a decent escort: A cruiser and two destroyers. Plus, wasn't there a diversionary attack going on at the same time as Blair lowered the boom on Kilrah? I seem to remember something about "escorting the big boys" being used in that manor.

Did the Tarawa have any such escort??

 

[Dundradal]

During the Kilrah raid Confed mounted a large diversionary attack in Hyperion that was the main focus of the kats.

The Tarawa had 2 escorts on the Kilrah raid, TCS Intrepid and TCS Kagamashi.

 

[DangerousCook]

I'm going to center in on this part, because it's the one I checked.

How does one compare ships from WC2 to ships from WC3? I mean, this poster claims the Sabre-D has better agility...but if you look at the stats in the ship section the Saber has 8/8/8 and the Thunderbolt has 50/50/50.

The same is true of the shields and hull armor ratings, it's 12, I think to 150. Are we just to assume that the measuring levels were different, and we should assume there's another zero on everything from the early years? Maybe LOAF can answer this, or point me somewhere where someone already has...

Why is this question being ignored?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Why is this question being ignored?

To get *you*!

The answer to the question differs depending on the statistic.

Take the Y/P/R values. Those listed for the Wing Commander 1 and 2 ships are, simply, wrong. Take the Sabre - if it's *actual* Yaw value were 8 dps then it would take 45 seconds to turn it 360 degrees. We've all flown Sabres, we know that's not the case. Despite what the manuals say these must only be comparative numbers - a Sabre is more maneuverable than a Scimitar is more maneuverable than a Dorkir and so forth. They can't be used against the correct numbers used in WC3. Want to compare a WC2 ship to a WC3 ship? Get your stopwatch.

Armor and shields are generational - a Sabre built in 2669 would have several times the amount of armor and shield protection as one built in 2665... and a Hellcat serving in 2665 would have only a sliver of the amount recorded in 2669. Armor alloys and shield generation technologies improve constantly, and both make a huge leap at the end of the war (think of the armor in Privateer - if your ship is armored in Plasteel then the same centimeter of armor is ten times as effective as ordinary Durasteel... and then Tungsten is 20x and Isometal is 60x).

 

[Jason_Ryock]

Want to compare a WC2 ship to a WC3 ship? Get your stopwatch.

We use to have a guns chart that showed the damage the guns dealt from every game, for some reason I was under the impression that these values were taken straight from the game engine itself (If I'm wrong, please correct me!).

Is there no hope that similar extractions could be made for the capabilites of the ships?

As another question, the Thunderbolt and Excalibur make apperances in the WCP engine. Would it be safe to compare the stats of a thunderbolt from that engine to the stats of say, a Vampire, in the same engine for comparison sake? I know that the WC2 ships aren't actually in the game, but it was just an idle question, I suppose, about game stats. Are they considered 'canon'?