Tarawa vs. Victory

Winner:

  • Tarawa

    Votes: 12 46.2%

  • Victory

    Votes: 14 53.8%
  • Total voters
    26
frostytheplebe

frostytheplebe

Seventh Part of the Seal
I know that there aren't many people who like vs. threads, but i thought i'd give one a try anyway.

Well... after flying off my fair share of light and escort carriers(Victory, Firekka, Intrepid, etc.) I was thinking about who would win in a fight. The dedicated carrier Victory, packing a full wing of fighters, supplies, and weapons. Or the Tarawa... from what I've seen of these, they also have terribly out of date fighters (At least from fan projects) but then they also have some of the more modern craft as well. So given thier fighter compliments, histories, weaponry, storage space, speed, and armor, who would win?

I personally would have to go with the "First to Kilrah." These CVEs have always struck me as being pretty damn fast, and in a fight, speed is a very dangerous advantage.
 
Does Victory have Blair and Maniac on board? That would pretty much eliminate Tarawa's chances.

Maybe more importantly, does Tarawa have O'Brien at the helm?
 
I know that there aren't many people who like vs. threads, but i thought i'd give one a try anyway.
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Don't worry about it - the rule about versus threads refers to "SpaceBattles" style idiot debates about whether or not Star Wars Star Destroyers can beat the Star Trek Enterprise. Comparing two Wing Commander ships is perfectly appropriate.

Well... after flying off my fair share of light and escort carriers(Victory, Firekka, Intrepid, etc.) I was thinking about who would win in a fight. The dedicated carrier Victory, packing a full wing of fighters, supplies, and weapons. Or the Tarawa... from what I've seen of these, they also have terribly out of date fighters (At least from fan projects) but then they also have some of the more modern craft as well. So given thier fighter compliments, histories, weaponry, storage space, speed, and armor, who would win?

I personally would have to go with the "First to Kilrah." These CVEs have always struck me as being pretty damn fast, and in a fight, speed is a very dangerous advantage.
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The Tarawa actually has a larger wing of fighters (45 vs 40).

Depending on what specific time we're picking up the Victory, the Tarawa's medium fighters are also mostly newer - Rapier IIs are much newer than Hellcats. The heavy fighters are closer... the Thunderbolt is (presumably) a bit newer than the Sabre, but the Tarawa was operating brand new B-model Sabres (... though, of course, Victory swaps her 'bolts for the first ever Excalibur squadron after a point...). Victory has the advantage in terms of light fighter age - Arrows are newer than Ferrets (though they're not a *new* design by any means). Victory has a significant advantage in terms of bombers, though... the Tarawa doesn't have anything equivalent to a dedicated Longbow squadron.

The Tarawa is a much newer design than the Victory by eighty odd years - but as you noted the Yorktown is a dedicated carrier and the Wake is a transport conversion. You probably have more efficient loading/launching/etc. on the Victory (and if characters come into play, Rachel Coriolis is supposedly a heavily decorated/record-holding chief tech...). Tarawa herself is a much newer ship, too - by 30 odd years.

Victory has an advantage in sheer firepower in a pounding match... she mounts a Capital Ship Missile launcher and a network of laser batteries. Tarawa has a hodgepodge of fighter-class weaponry... but then she's also much faster.

Does Victory have Blair on board? That would pretty much eliminate Tarawa's chances.
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Blair flew off the Tarawa for a time, as well.
 
McGruff said:
Does Victory have Blair and Maniac on board? That would pretty much eliminate Tarawa's chances.

Maybe more importantly, does Tarawa have O'Brien at the helm?
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I think Bondarevsky falls into the same category as Blair and Maniac in terms of skill. His kill numbers won't be as high as he entered the war later than the two of them and also spent 2667-2669 in a ship command role.

O'Brian was only in command of the Tarawa for a few weeks before his death.
 
Sparks was on the Tarawa at that point.

... and Tolwyn was intentionally assigning his top people to Victory in the months leading up to deploying the Behemoth.
 
O'Brian was only in command of the Tarawa for a few weeks before his death.
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Do we know this for sure? We know he was in command from when the carrier left Earth (and then there's over a month in End Run before they leave for Kilrah). Since he was involved in designing the CVEs, it seems likely thathe may have been around for things like her shakedown cruise...
 
Yeah my only other thing is that the Yorktown class just seems a far more solid design, while the Wakes... I dunno, they look a bit rickety inside and out.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Do we know this for sure? We know he was in command from when the carrier left Earth (and then there's over a month in End Run before they leave for Kilrah). Since he was involved in designing the CVEs, it seems likely thathe may have been around for things like her shakedown cruise...
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Possibly, but at the same time he talks about the bridge crew as if they had just come aboard, as they still hadn't "gotten it" yet.

My point was more to show that O'Brian was in command only at the very beginning of the Tarawa's career. Bondarevsky was in command of the Tarawa longer than any other person it appears (although I don't recall if we know anything about the tour of duty after Bondarevsky goes to the Coventry following BoT other than she takes severe damage during an attack) and I'm also just thinking of the Tarawa's period from commissioning until the end of the Kilrathi war.
 
Tarawa. A slightly larger fighter wing (45 to 40 as mentioned earlier), an unknown number (or al least I don't know the number) of torpedo tubes, and heavier AA weapons (Neutron Guns and Mass Drivers to HotT Laser Turrets) gives the Tarawa the win IMO.
 
I'll take the Falcon_Fire way out and be very noncommited in my response by simply quoting - "Ships don't fly themselves, Admiral"
 
RogueBanshee said:
Tarawa. A slightly larger fighter wing (45 to 40 as mentioned earlier)
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This is not necessarily true - what we actually know is that the Tarawa carries 3 fighter squadrons and the Victory carries four squadrons.
During the pre-BOE period the standard squadron size is assumed to be 15-16 fighters, while post-BOE squadrons are 10 fighters each (an in-direct reference in the WC4 novel).

It is quite possible that the fighter complement for both ships is based on the number of squadrons, from which the number of fighters is calculated.
(making the Tarawa's fighter complement at 45 fighters pre-BOE / 30 fighters post-BOE
and the Victory's fighter complement at 60 fighters pre-BOE / 40 fighters post-BOE)
 
Also, the Tarawa's fighter count might have been reduced slightly below the optimum to make room for the Marine landing shuttles on the Kilrah mission.

Fighter matchups:

Ferret VS. Arrow: Ferret has larger gun capacitors and faster refire for moderately higher damage capacity closer in, but Arrow has longer gun range and a slight speed edge, as well as packing eight missiles to the Ferret's two. Unless a Ferret pilot can keep within mass driver range of the Arrow, the Arrow wins, all else being equal.

Rapier II vs. Hellcat: The Cat has an edge in gun damage and shields, but the Rapier has longer range guns (and Laser/Particle isn't THAT much weaker than Ion/Neutron), and greater speed and agility. Missile load is equal. Rapier wins.

Sabre-D vs Thunderbolt VII, anti-capship:
The Sabre has more speed and agility, and can carry more torps. The Thunderbolt has more shields and can thus tolerate more turret fire. Thud wins in single-torp strikes if enemy fighters are not on its tail, but Sabre wins otherwise.

Sabre-D vs. Thunderbolt VII, head-to-head:
The Sabre carries eight missiles, up to six of which can be replaced with torps. The Thunderbolt carries six missiles and has an additional hardpoint that mounts a single torpedo-sized munition. The Thunderbolt has stronger guns and shields, but the Sabre's greater speed and agility makes it harder to bring them to bear. I would call this match a toss-up, with victory depending chiefly on pilot skill.

Sabre-D vs. Longbow, anti-capship:
The Sabre's greater speed and agility allows it to lock torps from outside of turret range (assuming that lock range exceeds turret range), and then close in with more than twice the speed of the Longbow, so they are pretty evenly matched in a turkey-shooting contest (i.e. no fighter cover to worry about). The Longbow would suffer if an enemy got on its tail, despite its heavy missile load, while the Sabre would be able to break off and dogfight, although this would delay the torp launching. Escorted Longbows would probably outperform escorted Sabres in speed of capship destruction if there is enemy fighter cover to worry about, due to their greater endurance.

Sabre-D vs. Longbow head-to-head:
The Sabre is fast enough to run circles around the Longbow and even strafe it, but it must dodge the Longbow's SIXTEEN missiles. Sabre wins unless the Longbow pilot gets a missile hit.
 
Ijuin said:
Also, the Tarawa's fighter count might have been reduced slightly below the optimum to make room for the Marine landing shuttles on the Kilrah mission.
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That was only on that one raid. Otherwise it had its normal fighter loadout.
 
That was only on that one raid. Otherwise it had its normal fighter loadout.
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It's the same fighter complement either way - remember that we meet the Tarawa well before Bear knows it's going to Kilrah... and then he has to figure out how to add the landing craft to the existing fighter complement.

Sabre-D vs Thunderbolt VII, anti-capship:
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The Tarawa carried the *Sabre-B*, not the -D. The B was a model designed specifically for the CVE, adding a bombadier-copilot.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
It's the same fighter complement either way - remember that we meet the Tarawa well before Bear knows it's going to Kilrah... and then he has to figure out how to add the landing craft to the existing fighter complement.
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Good point. That should have been fresh in my mind as well since I've been slowly working on Bear's WCPedia entry. Although, it was Sparks who came up with the idea for using null gravity units and the storage hooks on the ceiling of the flight deck to store the LCs.

Why wasn't O'Brian down here supervising this stuff? He worked on transports.
 
Dundradal said:
Good point. That should have been fresh in my mind as well since I've been slowly working on Bear's WCPedia entry. Although, it was Sparks who came up with the idea for using null gravity units and the storage hooks on the ceiling of the flight deck to store the LCs.

Why wasn't O'Brian down here supervising this stuff? He worked on transports.
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I thought he mostly worked on drinking himself under the desk....:p
 
Ijuin said:
Fighter matchups:

Sabre-D vs Thunderbolt VII, anti-capship:
The Sabre has more speed and agility, and can carry more torps. The Thunderbolt has more shields and can thus tolerate more turret fire. Thud wins in single-torp strikes if enemy fighters are not on its tail, but Sabre wins otherwise.

Sabre-D vs. Thunderbolt VII, head-to-head:
The Sabre carries eight missiles, up to six of which can be replaced with torps. The Thunderbolt carries six missiles and has an additional hardpoint that mounts a single torpedo-sized munition. The Thunderbolt has stronger guns and shields, but the Sabre's greater speed and agility makes it harder to bring them to bear. I would call this match a toss-up, with victory depending chiefly on pilot skill.
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I'm going to center in on this part, because it's the one I checked.

How does one compare ships from WC2 to ships from WC3? I mean, this poster claims the Sabre-D has better agility...but if you look at the stats in the ship section the Saber has 8/8/8 and the Thunderbolt has 50/50/50.

The same is true of the shields and hull armor ratings, it's 12, I think to 150. Are we just to assume that the measuring levels were different, and we should assume there's another zero on everything from the early years? Maybe LOAF can answer this, or point me somewhere where someone already has...
 
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