Survivors

[McGruff]

I was just thinking about the loss of both the Tiger's Claw and the Concordia, and how it seems that a great many of the major characters who served on them managed to somehow survive the destruction of the ships.

Off the top of my head, Blair, Maniac, Angel, Hobbes and Paladin make it into WC3. Iceman is killed in some separate incident. Hunter makes it into the novels. I'm working on End Run now, and it features Bear, Sparks, and Doomsday who are transferred to the Tarawa before Concordia goes down.

Did anyone besides redshirts we didn't actually know manage to die with the carriers?

 

[Shaggy]

Well the ones you mentioned were all pilots so they would likely have been outside the ships at the time. I think in Blair's case he was recuperating in the hospital when Concordia bought it.

 

[McGruff]

Just seems that most or all of the major characters managed to somehow not be around for the destruction of their ships, either on board or trying to defend them.

Maybe Stingray, anyone know what happened to him?

 

[Dundradal]

Off the top of my head, Blair, Maniac, Angel, Hobbes and Paladin make it into WC3. Iceman is killed in some separate incident. Hunter makes it into the novels. I'm working on End Run now, and it features Bear, Sparks, and Doomsday who are transferred to the Tarawa before Concordia goes down.

Bear, Sparks, Doomsday and Lonewolf Tolwyn also continue on after the war. Bear actually survives the destruction of his destroyer (Conventry) during the Behemoth debacle. I don't want to ruin too much for you if your in the process of reading the novels, so you can see what happens to the rest on your own.

 

[Vinman]

I thought Halcyon and Shotglass went down with the Claw

 

[poopnoodle]

well, i always thought it was due to the ten year difference between the first and second game, honestly maniac became a test pilot, angel got promoted, hobbes was relegated to the backwater station, and paladin got a nice hawiian shirt; let me know if i got any details wrong (it's been a while).

-brad

 

[McGruff]

Bear, Sparks, Doomsday and Lonewolf Tolwyn also continue on after the war. Bear actually survives the destruction of his destroyer (Conventry) during the Behemoth debacle. I don't want to ruin too much for you if your in the process of reading the novels, so you can see what happens to the rest on your own.

I'm guessing we find out about all that in the WC4 novelization? It's the only one I haven't read yet. (not counting the movie/pilgrim crap)

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I'm guessing we find out about all that in the WC4 novelization? It's the only one I haven't read yet. (not counting the movie/pilgrim crap)

Why did you think this was something you should post? It's not a criticism, because the entire point of your post is that you haven't even read the books. Who are you trying to impress here? There's no group ot teens smoking outside the gym, wholly amused by your antics. There's no machine worth raging against. In what way could your horrible mind possibly have balanced your inevitable banning against the want of letting everyone know your opinion on a subject despite being wholly ignorant of it? I know I've kid about this in the past, but in all seriousness now: are you honestly this stupid?

Goodbye and good riddance.

(And no, it's not from the Wing Commander IV novelization, it's from False Colors -- it's the entire setting of False Colors.)

 

[Bandit LOAF]

McGruff's wilfull ignorance aside, the thread itself is still an interesting topic.

The Tiger's Claw is the problematic situation, from a grand-narrative perspective... it's the case where people who the WC2 concept intended to kill eventually found their way back via retroactive continuity.

The characters seen in Wing Commander II were suppoed to be the only ones who survived: Bluehair (on patrol), Angel (transferred to the Austin), Paladin (retired), Maniac (went crazy and sent home) and then the two visitors from the Austin. But since then we've had...

* Hunter (on furlough at the end of Freedom Flight, returned too late)
* Iceman (survived through the WC1/2 Ultimate Strategy Guide, explained later as part of the Prophecy backstory)
* Shotglass (Voices of War says that he gave a character a set of silver wings "after K'Tithrak Mang")

... to make matters worse, other characters have since been connected to the Tiger's Claw or invented specifically to have survived. We see "Vanderman" in Fleet Action, and then the Wing Commander Prophecy material says that Hawk served a stint onboard as a comm tech.

Another thing to remember, though, is that in the original game characters didn't have to 'die' at any one point. You could have Knight killed in action somewhere in the Vega Campaign and never see him again, and never imagine him being on the Tiger's Claw at the end...

The Concordia is less spectacular, because all of the characters left the ship *before* the story of her death was created. You may be reading End Run after Wing Commander III destroyed the Concordia, but it was written well before that decision had been made. It's not some trick to get arround accidentally killing Bear, Sparks, Doomsday and such (in fact, if not for End Run we wouldn't even know Bear had ever served as a Concordia pilot) -- he was someone they rescued from the Gettysburg in SO1. These characters were specifically 'given' to the novel line in '92-93, never to be mentioned again.

As for characters who actually died with their ships (or, at least, haven't appeared again), we have Knight, Halcyon, Stingray and Major Edmonds (I believe we know for sure that Halcyon is dead).

 

[Delance]

As for characters who actually died with their ships (or, at least, haven't appeared again), we have Knight, Halcyon, Stingray and Major Edmonds (I believe we know for sure that Halcyon is dead).

Alas, the "Mr. Knight" who piloting a Broadsword bomber on the movie the same Knight of WC1, or a different character?

Did Halcyon ever fly?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Same character and probably. You don't get to command a fighter squadron without having been a fighter pilot at some point.

 

[McGruff]

Apologies for the willful ignorance, it gets the better of me sometimes.

Concerning the Claw's approach to K'Tithrak Mang, would most of the fighter compliment be caught 'on the ground' or would a good number of them be out on patrol/picket duty as Blair was? Assuming there was a substantial number of Confed pilots in space when the carrier was destroyed, it would be logical to assume that they would rendezvous and try to make it to safety as Blair did.

Makes me wonder what they would do in a similar situation, only deep behind enemy lines similar to the Sivar mission with no hope of rescue. I guess the options are pretty limited with no carrier to go back to - self destruction, a last ditch attack on whatever target was available, trying to find an inhabitable world to try to wait out the war without being caught, or of course drifting endlessly through the void.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Apologies for the willful ignorance, it gets the better of me sometimes.

In case you simply didn't know, the Wing Commander novelization was written based only on the script, since such adaptations need to be printed and ready in advance of a theatrical release. Because of this, Mr. Telep relied on the games as visual and background references... and he consulted our community's experts on fitting everything together. Even if you didn't like the movie, the book is written entirely for Wing Commander fans and their idea of continuity.

(It also includes all the things cut from the film, the traitor subplot and such -- so if you're being honest about why the movie sucks instead of just a general sci-fi brat, you can use the book to understand how it was originally supposed to fit together.)

Concerning the Claw's approach to K'Tithrak Mang, would most of the fighter compliment be caught 'on the ground' or would a good number of them be out on patrol/picket duty as Blair was? Assuming there was a substantial number of Confed pilots in space when the carrier was destroyed, it would be logical to assume that they would rendezvous and try to make it to safety as Blair did.

The background at the time was that they were all in space running patrols in preparation for the final strike -- so much that there was no wingman for Maverick.

Makes me wonder what they would do in a similar situation, only deep behind enemy lines similar to the Sivar mission with no hope of rescue. I guess the options are pretty limited with no carrier to go back to - self destruction, a last ditch attack on whatever target was available, trying to find an inhabitable world to try to wait out the war without being caught, or of course drifting endlessly through the void.

They were behind enemy lines, to a significant extent... it's just lucky that the Kilrathi had a strong reason to allow the TCS Austin to escape after the attack on K'Tithrak Mang failed.

I think Secret Ops' losing ending answers this quesiton, though... if you get stuck in an impossible place, Captain Murkins tells you to take your suicide pills.

 

[KoN21]

I think Secret Ops' losing ending answers this quesiton, though... if you get stuck in an impossible place, Captain Murkins tells you to take your suicide pills.

Speaking of Enoch Murkins, do we have any idea where his nickname "Clippy" comes from, because it wasn't clarified in Sec Ops and I know a lot of my fellow WC fans know more than most.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Speaking of Enoch Murkins, do we have any idea where his nickname "Clippy" comes from, because it wasn't clarified in Sec Ops and I know a lot of my fellow WC fans know more than most.

No... I actually asked some of the guys who wrote the fiction about this some years ago, and they apparently never decided what it meant, either.

 

[Mancubus]

The characters seen in Wing Commander II were suppoed to be the only ones who survived: Bluehair (on patrol), Angel (transferred to the Austin), Paladin (retired), Maniac (went crazy and sent home) and then the two visitors from the Austin. But since then we've had...

You forgot Spirit

 

[PopsiclePete]

As for characters who actually died with their ships (or, at least, haven't appeared again), we have Knight, Halcyon, Stingray [...]

I don't remember seeing that reference to Stingray's death, where is it, I'd like to know how/when he died ?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I don't remember seeing that reference to Stingray's death, where is it, I'd like to know how/when he died ?

There isn't one -- re-read the bit you quoted... it's a list of people who are either dead or just never mentioned again.

 

[Sylvester]

We know Halcyon and Knight are dead from the "Good Losing Ending" of Wing Commander II, I.E., the one where you don't destroy K'Mang but instead blow up two Fralthras in Gwynedd. The conversation that plays when you shoot down Jazz in this ending is different from the one in the K'Tithrak Mang ending.

How many deaths are you responsible for, Colson? Specialist McGuffin, General Halcyon, Iceman, Knight, Hunter, everyone else on the Tiger’s Claw… And Mariko… And you think I’ll let you live, bastard? No, I don’t think so...

This is also raises some questions on who communicated with whom. Because Freedom Flight was written before Wing Commander II, and Hunter was alive in the novel. However, this quote seems to imply that he died on the Tiger's Claw. And apparently, the producers of Prophecy forgot this line when they brought up Iceman as well.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Producers?

But seriously, it's a conversation that didn't actually happen in the continuity... and which had already been contradicted before Prophecy. We shouldn't give it much weight.