[SPOILERS] Star Wars movie thread... [Don't read this thread if you haven't seen the movie yet]

Aginor

Vice Admiral
Disagree with you there LOAF, for me XWA did it just right.
Although I have to agree with others that it aged pretty badly. I might install it anyway and try that mod, since I liked the gameplay and immersion back in the days.

Oh, btw: Does anyone know whether there is an explanation why Kylo Ren's grandpa (Vader, duh) doesn't just appear out of thin air and tell him "Grandson, you're on a bad way. You can stop now". Do Force ghosts vanish some time after the death of the person? Or is Anakin just an ass and does nothing?
I think I read something about that topic back when the EU still existed, but I can't remember.
 

Hunter_13

Commodore
I think I read something about that topic back when the EU still existed, but I can't remember.
In Heir to the Empire (set 5 years after ROTJ) Obi-wan tells Luke that he can no longer manifest to him, and that he had to completely join the Force. In the canonical "Clone Wars" final season, and mentioned in Episode III (hurlp.... sorry, I puked in my mouth a little bit) it is explained that Qui-Gonn had to teach Yoda (then Yoda taught Obi-wan) the technique of maintaining his consciousness after death to manifest himself to other Force sensitives (i.e. not all Jedi can do it.... even though Anakin did it at the end of ROTJ.... so who can say?).

I'm going with the "he had to join the Force completely after his ghostly shelf-life was up" theory. My question is, might there be an Anakin Force ghost AND a Darth Vader one as well? Kylo seemed to talk to the Vader head as though it had "shown" him something before. Could have just been used as a tool by Snoke...
 

Mindcrime

Commodore
My only guess is that Snoke is somehow powerful enough to trick Kylo into thinking he is communating with Anakin when in fact it is Snoke who controls these visions. Kinda how Palpatine was doing to Anakin in Ep 3 to manipulate him into joining the dark side to save Padme.

Disagree with you there LOAF, for me XWA did it just right.
Although I have to agree with others that it aged pretty badly. I might install it anyway and try that mod, since I liked the gameplay and immersion back in the days.

Oh, btw: Does anyone know whether there is an explanation why Kylo Ren's grandpa (Vader, duh) doesn't just appear out of thin air and tell him "Grandson, you're on a bad way. You can stop now". Do Force ghosts vanish some time after the death of the person? Or is Anakin just an ass and does nothing?
I think I read something about that topic back when the EU still existed, but I can't remember.
 

Aginor

Vice Admiral
In Heir to the Empire (set 5 years after ROTJ) Obi-wan tells Luke that he can no longer manifest to him, and that he had to completely join the Force. In the canonical "Clone Wars" final season, and mentioned in Episode III (hurlp.... sorry, I puked in my mouth a little bit) it is explained that Qui-Gonn had to teach Yoda (then Yoda taught Obi-wan) the technique of maintaining his consciousness after death to manifest himself to other Force sensitives (i.e. not all Jedi can do it.... even though Anakin did it at the end of ROTJ.... so who can say?).

I'm going with the "he had to join the Force completely after his ghostly shelf-life was up" theory. My question is, might there be an Anakin Force ghost AND a Darth Vader one as well? Kylo seemed to talk to the Vader head as though it had "shown" him something before. Could have just been used as a tool by Snoke...
Ah, Heir to the Empire! I haven't read it, but I talked to other fans about its content long long ago.
I think you have a good explanation there, even ghosts can't stick around forever.

My only guess is that Snoke is somehow powerful enough to trick Kylo into thinking he is communating with Anakin when in fact it is Snoke who controls these visions. Kinda how Palpatine was doing to Anakin in Ep 3 to manipulate him into joining the dark side to save Padme.
Good theory!
 

Hunter_13

Commodore
Ah, Heir to the Empire! I haven't read it, but I talked to other fans about its content long long ago.
I think you have a good explanation there, even ghosts can't stick around forever.
WHAAAAAT??? Get a copy (along with Dark Force Rising and The Last Command) now, I'll take your "thank you" now too! ;)
The unabridged audiobooks are excellent as well, though I'd go with the newer editions.
 

-danr-

Vice Admiral
I'm going with the "he had to join the Force completely after his ghostly shelf-life was up" theory. My question is, might there be an Anakin Force ghost AND a Darth Vader one as well? Kylo seemed to talk to the Vader head as though it had "shown" him something before. Could have just been used as a tool by Snoke...
I've been thinking along the same lines, there's another LucasArts production where a certain voodoo lady repeatedly tells us 'true evil can never be destroyed' :)

Joking aside, we know it's possible for those on the Dark side to still have 'good in them' - as seen with Vader in ROTJ, I think Luke even sensed it in ESB. I wonder if this would mean the 'darker' side of their being can manifest itself as a force spectre too; i.e. Vader and Anakin being two separate ghosts. It would certainly add a new dimension to Obi Wan's explanation that 'Darth Vader killed your father'.

O/T: X-Wing Alliance is so hard!
 

-danr-

Vice Admiral
Also, having only seen Episode VII the once so far, doesn't Kylo Ren say something along the lines of "Show me again, grandfather, the power of the dark side" - like he's in touch with Vader but not Anakin.
 

capi3101

Rear Admiral
Been giving X-Wing Alliance a try of late. My big issue so far has been adjusting to the changes in the HUD from X-Wing and TIE Fighter. I'd also forgotten about the changes they made to how shields work in XvT, which has carried over. Had to tone down the default combat simulator encounter from Ace AI to Veteran AI while I'm adjusting to the changes, but I have been able to start smoking Eyeballs again at least...in the TIE/ad, TIE/D and Missile Boat. Going to have to switch back to Rebel hardware at some point...

A conflict between the Force Ghosts of Anakin/Vader would be an interesting twist, I have to admit - the whole notion of Anakin being 'The Chosen One' who 'will bring balance to the Force' and all that muck from the prequels.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Despite all the speculation, I don't think we're going to see anyone turn out to be "Darth Plagueis"; he's a throw-away line in a movie Disney doesn't especially want us to remember happened. No one is spending hundreds of millions of dollars to explain something that didn't go anywhere in the prequels.
The Darth Plagueis story is a great bit of world-building - its a morality fable within the main story, giving greater dimension to the SW universe - but it wasn't meant to be taken so literally as many fans seem to want it to be. It may - MAY - be the Emperor slyly telling us his own backstory, but thats as far as it goes. I sincerely doubt that Disney would put ANYTHING about the Prequels into their new material.

To be honest, the new film takes a LOT from the Expanded Universe materials - The First Order returning from the far reaches ala Thrawn, for instance - so if you go back and see any parallels between the new stuff and the previous stuff, you can get a (very) rough idea of whats to come.
 

SabreAce

Rear Admiral
Joking aside, we know it's possible for those on the Dark side to still have 'good in them' - as seen with Vader in ROTJ, I think Luke even sensed it in ESB. I wonder if this would mean the 'darker' side of their being can manifest itself as a force spectre too; i.e. Vader and Anakin being two separate ghosts. It would certainly add a new dimension to Obi Wan's explanation that 'Darth Vader killed your father'.
Reaching back into the old EU for a moment...

When Luke sets up the new Jedi Academy on Yavin 4, the spirit of a fallen Jedi-turned-Sith named Exar Kun who has been on Yavin for millenia works to corrupt Luke's students. He is said to manifest as a "dark man", and causes quite a bit of havoc (this is when the whole mess with the Sun Crusher enters the EU), before the students band together to banish Kun's spirit completely.
 

Hunter_13

Commodore
When Luke sets up the new Jedi Academy on Yavin 4, the spirit of a fallen Jedi-turned-Sith named Exar Kun who has been on Yavin for millenia works to corrupt Luke's students. He is said to manifest as a "dark man", and causes quite a bit of havoc (this is when the whole mess with the Sun Crusher enters the EU), before the students band together to banish Kun's spirit completely.
Good point, perhaps the helmet/skull acts like an anchor, much like the Massassi Temple did for Kun. For that matter, much like the Sith Amulets he and Ulic Qel-Droma got their hands on.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
The Darth Plagueis story is a great bit of world-building - its a morality fable within the main story, giving greater dimension to the SW universe - but it wasn't meant to be taken so literally as many fans seem to want it to be. It may - MAY - be the Emperor slyly telling us his own backstory, but thats as far as it goes. I sincerely doubt that Disney would put ANYTHING about the Prequels into their new material.

To be honest, the new film takes a LOT from the Expanded Universe materials - The First Order returning from the far reaches ala Thrawn, for instance - so if you go back and see any parallels between the new stuff and the previous stuff, you can get a (very) rough idea of whats to come.
I don't think they're returning from anywhere; I think the idea is that the Republic has set up a sort of uneasy truce with Imperial remnants for some time... and they've taken that time to rearm and reorganize. (It's literally World War II, with the Republic lend-leasing Leia's Resistance ships and pretending to be neutral.)

There was a hint at Thrawn in one of the recent novels, though (Aftermath, I think.) I don't know how I feel about that... I'd kind of like for there to be two separate chunks of Star Wars at this point.

I do think we'll see some things from the prequels (we had Ewan McGregor already!)... but it's going to be stuff that fans recognize and never something so obscure as basing your three movie plot around something no one remembers Palpatine talking about (or, if they do, something no one remembers WHY :)) Always good to look at this sort of thing broadly: the people who know all these details, who read all the comics and novels (you know, us) are .1% of the people who are going to go see the movie... scripts will be written for them, but never to them.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Also, having only seen Episode VII the once so far, doesn't Kylo Ren say something along the lines of "Show me again, grandfather, the power of the dark side" - like he's in touch with Vader but not Anakin.
I believe this is what Leia is explaining a bit later... Snoke has tricked him.
 

Mindcrime

Commodore
I believe this is what Leia is explaining a bit later... Snoke has tricked him.
All this makes me wonder more about the Knights of Ren. How many are there? How long have they been around? Are they all sith? Did they kill the jedi that Luke was training? Shit man.....I need my episode 8 already! Lol
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
I've been thinking along the same lines, there's another LucasArts production where a certain voodoo lady repeatedly tells us 'true evil can never be destroyed' :)

Joking aside, we know it's possible for those on the Dark side to still have 'good in them' - as seen with Vader in ROTJ, I think Luke even sensed it in ESB. I wonder if this would mean the 'darker' side of their being can manifest itself as a force spectre too; i.e. Vader and Anakin being two separate ghosts. It would certainly add a new dimension to Obi Wan's explanation that 'Darth Vader killed your father'.
Well, if you don't mind a bit of philosophy, true evil can never be destroyed only in the sense that true evil does not exist. Evil is darkness compared to light (an analogy made explicit in Star Wars, of course) - and darkness is not a property by itself, it is simply the absence of a property. Even the Emperor had good in him - he was alive, and that's a "good" property :).

But in regards to force ghosts, I don't think the film gave us any reason to believe that Kylo Ren is seeing any ghosts at all. There's no reason to think that his little Vader shrine is anything more than just a mute idol. He might look to it for inspiration in the same way that you might go for a walk in the park for inspiration, but that doesn't mean that Vader speaks to him any more than trees speak to you.

Oh, and as for Episodes 8 and 9. After much careful deliberation and a few very interesting conversations about the patterns visible in the original six films and how these patterns appear to be being repeated in the new films, I'm going to make two predictions about them. We'll have to wait and see how utterly wrong I will turn out to be :).
1. Rey is not related to Luke or Kylo Ren. She is not a lost sister or lost daughter. Her origins are similar to Anakin's. She will romance Luke, and bear a child, most likely a girl (though possibly twins again, since it runs in the family). In a Dune-like twist, this is what Snoke actually wants - he's trying to breed a superior Kwisatz... err, Sith. In this sense, regardless of who he is, he is actually continuing the work of Darth Plagueis. In the same way that it was implied the latter was responsible for Anakin's birth, we may well find out that Snoke is responsible for Rey's.
2. Rey will confront Kylo Ren and Snoke in a scene reminiscent of the Anakin-Dooku-Palpatine scene in Episode 3, and of course, the analogous Luke-Vader-Palpatine scene in Episode 6. Continuing the Star Wars tradition of scenes that repeat past scenes with a variation, this scene will resemble both of these, but will unfold differently. Just like in Episode 6, Snoke will invite Rey to join the dark side. The twist is that Kylo, feeling guilty about his father, "succumbs" to the light side when he realises that Snoke actually means Rey will replace him, and understands that he's been duped and manipulated all along. In the same way that Luke tried to attack Palpatine and was deflected by Vader, we will see Snoke attacked by Kylo, and deflected by Rey, who then proceeds to kill him and replace him. This, of course, will pave the way for a second trilogy, where Rey's daughter squares off against Rey to bring her back. I do not, however, have any idea about how they will make this different to Episodes 4-6, other than the fact that this time it will be a "girl thing".

...And no, I am neither drunk nor smoking anything :). The main problem with the above is the presumption that the new directors and producers will be interested in continuing the pattern that Lucas had established (with total authorial control) in the first six episodes. This is certainly not a given. I think one of the main questions with the new Star Wars films is the question of authorial control - are these films going to ultimately have one author (Kathleen Kennedy), or do the film directors really get sufficient freedom to exert authorial control over their individual films.
 

Vidmaster

Rear Admiral
The movie has an extreme lack of context to its world... Who the fuck is the resistance, why is their base on that planet where Han is looking for a ride to Leid and... argh do not get me started on that. The Republic does not fare any better, what is the New Republic presented here anyway? And worst are obviously the bad guys, the First Order. The only thing we are given is that they have arisen from the ashes of the Empire. What is their range of power, what are there resources? Comparing it directly to A New Hope, they establish context and a history of the Empire with only a few lines of dialog: okay, it is more or less galaxy wide, there is a senate constantly loosing power until some Emperor actually closes it down and establishes and even more direct control over the provinces via the regional govs. In short, the roman empire. The Order seems to have the resources to repurpose a fucking planet but that is just another thing the movie glosses over, similarly to the destruction of a whole fucking star system. Is that an every day occurrence or what (ignoring the fact that everyone seemingly sees that on the sky)? I also found the characters pretty weak aside from Ray (stellar performance by the actress) and Han (stellar performance from the old actor). I also really liked the look and sound of the movie, at least that. Rekindled the magic in some spaces...

Biggest problem of the movie is that there are way way way to many conveniences, something that seems to happen in all the recent big budget movies, including the rebooted Star Trek movie also by JJ. It is also to quote-heavy, too much fan-service so to speak.

Overall, I am pretty disappointed.
 

Aginor

Vice Admiral
Well, if you don't mind a bit of philosophy, true evil can never be destroyed only in the sense that true evil does not exist. Evil is darkness compared to light (an analogy made explicit in Star Wars, of course) - and darkness is not a property by itself, it is simply the absence of a property. Even the Emperor had good in him - he was alive, and that's a "good" property :).

But in regards to force ghosts, I don't think the film gave us any reason to believe that Kylo Ren is seeing any ghosts at all. There's no reason to think that his little Vader shrine is anything more than just a mute idol. He might look to it for inspiration in the same way that you might go for a walk in the park for inspiration, but that doesn't mean that Vader speaks to him any more than trees speak to you.

Oh, and as for Episodes 8 and 9. After much careful deliberation and a few very interesting conversations about the patterns visible in the original six films and how these patterns appear to be being repeated in the new films, I'm going to make two predictions about them. We'll have to wait and see how utterly wrong I will turn out to be :).
1. Rey is not related to Luke or Kylo Ren. She is not a lost sister or lost daughter. Her origins are similar to Anakin's. She will romance Luke, and bear a child, most likely a girl (though possibly twins again, since it runs in the family). In a Dune-like twist, this is what Snoke actually wants - he's trying to breed a superior Kwisatz... err, Sith. In this sense, regardless of who he is, he is actually continuing the work of Darth Plagueis. In the same way that it was implied the latter was responsible for Anakin's birth, we may well find out that Snoke is responsible for Rey's.
2. Rey will confront Kylo Ren and Snoke in a scene reminiscent of the Anakin-Dooku-Palpatine scene in Episode 3, and of course, the analogous Luke-Vader-Palpatine scene in Episode 6. Continuing the Star Wars tradition of scenes that repeat past scenes with a variation, this scene will resemble both of these, but will unfold differently. Just like in Episode 6, Snoke will invite Rey to join the dark side. The twist is that Kylo, feeling guilty about his father, "succumbs" to the light side when he realises that Snoke actually means Rey will replace him, and understands that he's been duped and manipulated all along. In the same way that Luke tried to attack Palpatine and was deflected by Vader, we will see Snoke attacked by Kylo, and deflected by Rey, who then proceeds to kill him and replace him. This, of course, will pave the way for a second trilogy, where Rey's daughter squares off against Rey to bring her back. I do not, however, have any idea about how they will make this different to Episodes 4-6, other than the fact that this time it will be a "girl thing".

...And no, I am neither drunk nor smoking anything :). The main problem with the above is the presumption that the new directors and producers will be interested in continuing the pattern that Lucas had established (with total authorial control) in the first six episodes. This is certainly not a given. I think one of the main questions with the new Star Wars films is the question of authorial control - are these films going to ultimately have one author (Kathleen Kennedy), or do the film directors really get sufficient freedom to exert authorial control over their individual films.
No offense Quarto, but I really hope you are wrong since that would be extremely lame and unsatisfactory. Also Rey romancing Luke?? ewww.



Speaking of theories:
A theory I like (Actually when I wanted to post it somewhere and was looking for pictures someone already had had the same idea. Grrr....) is that Rey's staff once belonged to Darth Plagueis.
- She doesn't like to touch the light saber (at least she says so), so she puts it on the staff
- She can already fight with a staff
- Darth Plagueis had a lightsaber he could put on his staff, and her staff looks pretty much like the staff from Darth Plagueis, judging by a recent (2014) official Hasbro Star Wars action figure.
- Out of universe: it is her signature weapon, it is everywhere in the merchandise and so on. A Jedi can't just have a normal staff as a signature weapon

EDIT: And yeah, I know that it was denied by the actor at some point. I still think it might actually be true.

It most likely wouldn't have too much impact on the story (I don't believe in the "staff corrupts Rey" theory or something similar weird), still I am curious whether that could actually be the case.
 
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Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Everything about Darth Plaugeis with the exception of what Palpatine says in Revenge of the Sith is non-canon now. Probably can't take too much from toy accessories anyway, there's an Admiral Ackbar with a wrist-mounted missile launcher on my desk at work :)

Rey's staff is shorthand for the viewer: it exists to explain why she's already competent with a lightsaber in act 3. Despite Abrams' unfortunate fascination with coincidence, they spend a good bit of time setting up for that final battle! (The other one you don't notice right off is all the time spent with Chewie's bowcaster... it seems like a bland comedy runner until you realize it was all to set up to explain how wounded Kylo Ren must be going into the fight.)

(... and no Disney is not going to have 64 year old Mark impregnate 23 year old Daisy Ridley. It's not THAT big a fantasy for old fans :))
 

Mindcrime

Commodore
Loaf is pretty dead on to what I think here. Plaugeis only exists in a few lines of dialogue now. I just rewatched episode 3 yesterday and all we know is:
1) he was Palpatines master
2) he taught Palpatine too much
3) He could keep others from dying
4) he was nicknamed "the wise"
5) Palpatine killed him in his sleep

Everything else we read in books isn't cannon anymore. Also the staff is likely just some random weapon she found on Jakku and practiced hard with for protection. Also like Loaf said the whole purpose of it was so people wouldn't bitch about how good she is with a ligjtsaber(even though people still bitch about it lol). And finally, I watched the movie 3 times and I'm pretty damn sure she is Lukes daughter and was hidden away on a desert planet like how Obi Wan did with Luke. That's the only assumption I will make cuz it seems pretty clear. I thought for a while she could be Lukes nephew cuz how fatherly Han was towards her but it seems more like how an uncle would treat his little niece. Last thought, I LOVE how Han finally uses the bowcastee and it got some love. I always loved that weapon.

Everything about Darth Plaugeis with the exception of what Palpatine says in Revenge of the Sith is non-canon now. Probably can't take too much from toy accessories anyway, there's an Admiral Ackbar with a wrist-mounted missile launcher on my desk at work :)

Rey's staff is shorthand for the viewer: it exists to explain why she's already competent with a lightsaber in act 3. Despite Abrams' unfortunate fascination with coincidence, they spend a good bit of time setting up for that final battle! (The other one you don't notice right off is all the time spent with Chewie's bowcaster... it seems like a bland comedy runner until you realize it was all to set up to explain how wounded Kylo Ren must be going into the fight.)

(... and no Disney is not going to have 64 year old Mark impregnate 23 year old Daisy Ridley. It's not THAT big a fantasy for old fans :))
 

Aginor

Vice Admiral
Grrr.... Dammit Star Wars....
I am still really confused and a bit angry about all the canon-not-canon-or-maybe-canon thing.
Is there a TL;DR somewhere about what is actually canon and what isn't?

I thought it was like:
- All movies (EP 1-7)
- Clone Wars animated series
- Rebels animated series
- that one backstory book released recently, forgot the title
- everything from the EU that doesn't contradict any of the above, so Nomi Sunrider or Plagueis would probably be safe? And what about all the Old Republic stuff?
 
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