[SPOILERS] Star Wars movie thread... [Don't read this thread if you haven't seen the movie yet]

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I'd argue that it's trying to do exactly what the original did with regards to the big picture - treating it like something the characters understand implicitly so they'd never take time to explain it. You didn't come out of the original Star Wars knowing what the Empire or the Rebellion really is. Everything was a juicy hint -- but we went years or even decades before we found out why the senate mattered or what the clone wars were... the first Star Wars didn't even explain who Darth Vader was in the scheme of things, save Leia clearly recognizing him as someone important. It's the boring, big picture stuff that took us out of the world in the prequels, rather. It's immersion, and totally intentional.
 

-danr-

Vice Admiral
I'd argue that it's trying to do exactly what the original did with regards to the big picture - treating it like something the characters understand implicitly so they'd never take time to explain it. You didn't come out of the original Star Wars knowing what the Empire or the Rebellion really is. Everything was a juicy hint -- but we went years or even decades before we found out why the senate mattered or what the clone wars were... the first Star Wars didn't even explain who Darth Vader was in the scheme of things, save Leia clearly recognizing him as someone important. It's the boring, big picture stuff that took us out of the world in the prequels, rather. It's immersion, and totally intentional.

It's tantalizing, for sure. I just think that following the grand victory for the Rebel Alliance at the end of Episode VI, some of us are left scratching our heads about this pseudo 'Empire' and wondering - 'how the hell did these guys make a comeback?'
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I like the idea that all the new characters are essentially just Star Wars fans; it's kids who fetishize stormtroopers and so now cosplay and then others who talk about Luke and Han like they're legendary characters.
 

Hunter_13

Commodore
I just think that following the grand victory for the Rebel Alliance at the end of Episode VI, some of us are left scratching our heads about this pseudo 'Empire' and wondering - 'how the hell did these guys make a comeback?'
I always found myself scratching my head thinking "that's all they had to do? Blow up the Death Star while the Emperor and Vader were on it"? We're talking about an Empire that spanned how many star systems? There's no chain of command beyond the Emperor and Vader? Of course the old EU covered this to some degree, and some folks thought it was redundant, "fighting the Empire AGAIN?", but it actually makes sense. The Old Republic didn't fall because it was defeated, it fell because it was gradually transformed into the Empire.

Seems like in the new canon, the Alliance just rested on its laurels and hoped everyone would fall in line and follow the New Republic, while in reality, normal folks on most planets probably didn't care enough, and were still under Imperial control. They drew down their military force and didn't seem to go for the "retake the galaxy star by star" from the Empire doctrine.
 

NinjaLA

Alex Von T.
same, hunter. they blew up a death star, probably bankrupted the galactic economy and did massive damage to the empire.. but they still had all those thousands of star destroyers someone had to blow up...
 

-danr-

Vice Admiral
I always found myself scratching my head thinking "that's all they had to do? Blow up the Death Star while the Emperor and Vader were on it"? We're talking about an Empire that spanned how many star systems? There's no chain of command beyond the Emperor and Vader? Of course the old EU covered this to some degree, and some folks thought it was redundant, "fighting the Empire AGAIN?", but it actually makes sense. The Old Republic didn't fall because it was defeated, it fell because it was gradually transformed into the Empire.

Seems like in the new canon, the Alliance just rested on its laurels and hoped everyone would fall in line and follow the New Republic, while in reality, normal folks on most planets probably didn't care enough, and were still under Imperial control. They drew down their military force and didn't seem to go for the "retake the galaxy star by star" from the Empire doctrine.

Yes, there must have been a lot of Imperial ships and personnel still active after the battle of Endor; this might explain all of those TIE fighters we see in VII. That said; what happened to all the clones? Fin certainly wasn't one.

I used to see the destruction of the second Death Star, and the deaths of the emperor and Vader as being similar to the way in which the Kilrathi fell apart after the destruction of Kilrah. Now it's explicitly stated in the rules at the CIC not to make comparisons between different universes, but this is more for the purpose of analogy. After Kilrah fell, the Kilrathi immediately surrendered (as Taggart suggested they would) - followed by Kilrathi clans fighting and scrambling for power. I always thought that the destruction of the Death Star would have been a similarly demoralizing blow for the Imperial forces, combined with planets gaining confidence and overthrowing their Imperial overlords (in the re-mastered ROTJ we see a statue being pulled down and feverish celebrations on many worlds).

Maybe though, what actually happened - as you suggested, was that many of these worlds remained under the control of the remnants of the Empire. Since we hear about the 'Republic' in The Force Awakens - perhaps we can deduce that the Empire became more of a 'faction' than a ruling power. It became the First Order.

Also note, I haven't read any Star Wars extended universe or novelizations (man, it pains me to spell that word with a 'z' - but the CIC forum is a largely American audience :)...when in Rome...)
 

AD

Finder of things, Doer of stuff
Now it's explicitly stated in the rules at the CIC not to make comparisons between different universes, but ...
For the most part that rule is more about making threads and posts with the sole purpose of pitting two universe against each other (such as 'star trek is better than everything because xyz'). Still, it's rarely the case where situations in one series will perfectly match another.

Regarding the fall of the empire though, the film language in ROTJ suggests a universal end to the empire, but not in its original incarnation. If you take off the tacked on coda in the special editions you only really see celebrations on Endor. The coda makes sense when you want a happy and conclusive end to the whole series.

The reality of regime change in current politics has almost never been some clean change of government. Celebrating in the streets has more often than not given way to horror when factions star fighting for control of whatever pieces are left to pick up. Alliances are usually fairly tenuous and break down after a while when disadvantaged parties realise that they aren't much better or possibly are even worse off under the new system.
 

Hunter_13

Commodore
No worries -danr-, spell it any way you want, I read enough Warhammer 40k to not even notice the changes :).

Not sure destroying Death Star II with Vader and the Emperor on board is tantamount to the destruction of Kilrah (beyond elimination of the Emperor). Seems more comparable to the destruction of the Behemoth (only Tolwyn wasn't aboard... even though it might have been best had he died that way). There was a lot in the EU about Jedi Battle Meditation and how that is what made the Imperial Fleet so effective (depending on your definition of "effective"), and when the Emperor was killed, they fell into disarray. Destruction of Kilrah eliminated the hierarchies across the board at all levels, along with the "will" to fight..... and a metric crap-ton (tonne?) of their fleet.

Certainly enough on both sides of that coin, so your point is well taken.

As far as the clones, their DNA was modified so that they would age fast. That's how they were a fully-formed fighting unit inside 10 years of their order. Some of this falls into the EU, but some found ways to slow the aging process to normal levels, but most just died of "old age". From the new canon of the TV Show "Rebels" covers this, but I won't spoil it for you.
 

Hunter_13

Commodore
same, hunter. they blew up a death star, probably bankrupted the galactic economy and did massive damage to the empire.. but they still had all those thousands of star destroyers someone had to blow up...
Agreed. That reminds me of the Robot Chicken Star Wars spoof, where Vader calls the Emperor after the first Death Star is blown up...

"That thing wasn't even paid off! Do you have any idea what that's going to do to my credit?!!!"
 

Jdawg

Commodore
saw it for the third time over the weekend and the more I watch the force awakens the more I love it. It has about 5 key scenes that I love watching every time.

Im worried about episode 9 though, bc Jurassic World was an ok action/monster movie, but I liked it less and less the more I saw of it. and we all know the director of ep 9 is the director of Jurassic world.
 

NinjaLA

Alex Von T.
well..to be fair, 30+ years have passed in universe as well..it's pretty clear to me that the new republic had a hard time establishing itself and the rebellion which became the republic fleet had a seriously insurmountable amount of mop-up to accomplish. also it sounds like Leia was more beloved as a rebel leader than as a politician. makes more sense that way... she's written as a bit stand-offish (ask Han) so when governing was the business of the day, she returned to fighting imperial remnants. So did Han,.. at least his business of burning every bridge, after he crossed it :p
 

-danr-

Vice Admiral
So what does everybody make of Harrison Ford purportedly being involved in Episode 8? A flashback scene? A ghost? Didn't actually die despite being stabbed through the heart, thrown down a giant chasm and presumably incinerated when the Starkiller base went up?
 

capi3101

Admiral
So what does everybody make of Harrison Ford purportedly being involved in Episode 8? A flashback scene? A ghost? Didn't actually die despite being stabbed through the heart, thrown down a giant chasm and presumably incinerated when the Starkiller base went up?

I've already placed my wager on Force Ghost. Still sticking to that one for now.
 

Hunter_13

Commodore
So what does everybody make of Harrison Ford purportedly being involved in Episode 8? A flashback scene? A ghost? Didn't actually die despite being stabbed through the heart, thrown down a giant chasm and presumably incinerated when the Starkiller base went up?
Yeah, I'm going with flashbacks. Either from Kylo or from Luke (both).
 

-danr-

Vice Admiral
All good suggestions, never considered the idea of a Holo, but that would make sense. Perhaps a pre-recorded message that somehow helps to cause conflict within Kylo Ren upon hearing it.

Or, as Capi suggests, a force ghost. I actually, even as a kid used to wonder if Solo was force sensitive. I guess because of scenes like this one:


That, or just a good pilot who knows the limits of his ship. Either way, I'm in denial about the whole thing and hoping he's still alive .
 

-danr-

Vice Admiral
I've started playing X-Wing alliance again :) It's been so long; just wanted to fly a Corellian YT-1300 (like the 'Falcon) again.

You know what's great about Star Wars? It doesn't conflict in any way with the Wing Commander Universe. In my head, both happened/will happen.
 
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