Size of the Confederation and Kilrathi territories.

[Bandit LOAF]

Well, take the pilgrims for example. They have nothing to do with any of the Wing Commander games or novels and are never mentioned at all except for the movie. For all intents and purposes, they basically don't exist in the main wing commander setting.

That's not a contradiction, though. "If we haven't seen it, it can't exist" doesn't make sense -- this kind of thinking, for example, rules out Wing Commander 4's even larger (but more popular) retcon (the Border Worlds).

I actually didn't mind the movie itself that much. If taken on its own it wasn't all that bad but it definately wasn't anything like the Wing Commander games or novels. Trying to "integrate" the movie into the rest of the Wing Commaner universe is basically a lost cause because so much of the material simply doesn't match up. The material that DOES match up is still potentially useful, but it defiantely needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

I would argue that "integrating" a movie written and directed by Chris Roberts is a lot more important than concerning ourselves with the exact same issues in books written by third party written-for-hire authors.

And I'm not sure what you mean about my "begging for an FTL drive"? I was asking about a source giving the total size of the Confederation and Kilrathi territories. Some of the distances are given in Fleet Action, but they don't seem to give a total distance to travel from one edge of Confederation or Kilrathi space to the other.

Weren't you the guy who was talking about how long it would take for someone with an FTL drive to cross the Confederation?

I clipped out part of the published WCU Map in a post above, maybe you missed it.

 

[Devari]

That's not a contradiction, though. "If we haven't seen it, it can't exist" doesn't make sense -- this kind of thinking, for example, rules out Wing Commander 4's even larger (but more popular) retcon (the Border Worlds).

I would argue that "integrating" a movie written and directed by Chris Roberts is a lot more important than concerning ourselves with the exact same issues in books written by third party written-for-hire authors.

I never said that pilgrims can't exist. I said for all INTENTS AND PURPOSES, they don't exist in the main Wing Commander setting because they have never been mentioned. If the pilgrims did exist in the Wing Commander game/novel setting, they are so utterly inconsequential to have never, ever been worth mentioning. In the movie, however, they are very important from a historical perspective and played a critical part in developing interstellar travel. So the games/novels are obviously in conflict with the movie because these two situations simply aren't compatable. In one case pilgrims are mentioned and important (the movie), in the other case they're unmentioned and unimportant (games/novels). So trying to "integrate" the movie with the games/novels simply doesn't work. It requires you to take totally separate ideas and somehow make them both work at the same time.

I agree that the novels aren't perfect either, but they're much easier to combine with the games than the movie is. In almost all cases the games and novels compliment each other extremely well, with the novels providing a large amount of background material that was then incorporated directly into later Wing Commander games and documentation.

Weren't you the guy who was talking about how long it would take for someone with an FTL drive to cross the Confederation?

Yes, I was comparing jump drive travel to warp or hyperdrive travel. I wasn't saying that an FTL drive would necessarily be better, only that it could probably cross Confederation/Kilrathi space fairly efficiently since the Confederation and Kilrathi territories seem to be only a few thousand light years across.

I clipped out part of the published WCU Map in a post above, maybe you missed it.

I noticed it, but I'm not sure what to make of it. It seems to suggest that roughly a quarter of the galactic disk has been explored. Since it's roughly 50,000 light years from the galactic core to the edge of the galaxy, this doesn't agree with the games/novels because Earth, Kilrah and surrounding territories have been described as only a few thousand light years apart. Where did this map come from?

As I side point, I've downloaded and started reading the WC bible. So far it confirms the information that Haesslich provided about jump and FTL drives and seems to be a reliable source for background info (some of the fighter stats are incorrect, but all of the general information looks good). It looks like the WC bible is a compilation of background information from both the novels and games, since it has a timeline that includes the major events from the games and novels up to and including WC3.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I never said that pilgrims can't exist. I said for all INTENTS AND PURPOSES, they don't exist in the main Wing Commander setting because they have never been mentioned. If the pilgrims did exist in the Wing Commander game/novel setting, they are so utterly inconsequential to have never, ever been worth mentioning. In the movie, however, they are very important from a historical perspective and played a critical part in developing interstellar travel. So the games/novels are obviously in conflict with the movie because these two situations simply aren't compaible. In one case pilgrims are mentioned and important (the movie), in the other case they're unimportant and unmentioned (games/novels). So trying to "integrate" the movie with the games/novels simply doesn't work. It requires you to take totally separate ideas and somehow make them both work at the same time.

I don't see what you're going on about - they have been mentioned in the movie, which is part of the "main Wing Commander setting".

Look at the Border Worlds - they weren't mentioned anywhere in the first three games... but suddenly they were the group responsible for keeping the Kilrathi at bay because Wing Commander IV said so. No one questions that (anymore), because no one has an axe to grind with Wing Commander IV (anymore). The Wing Commander movie gave Blair a space religion - it's retroactive continuity, not the end of the world.

(No, the Pilgrims aren't especially important in the greater scheme of things - they charted Pulsars for a period in history... the Confederation developed the Akwende Drive completely independantly -- that's explicitly part of the backstory in the Confederation Handbook. I mean, we see a Pulsar jumped... what, one other time in all the rest of Wing Commander? And it's our 'Pilgrim' character who gets sent to do it!)

I agree that the novels aren't perfect either, but they're much easier to combine with the games than the movie is. In almost all cases the games and novels compliment each other extremely well, with the novels providing a large amount of background material that was then incorporated directly into later Wing Commander games and documentation.

So, what, because we don't like the movie we're going to sit around with our hands in our ears until the next Wing Commander game shows up and lists its little story in a timeline? *That's* what makes something relevant?

Yes, I was comparing jump drive travel to warp or hyperdrive travel. I wasn't saying that an FTL drive would necessarily be better, only that it could probably cross Confederation/Kilrathi space fairly efficiently since the Confederation and Kilrathi territories seem to be only a few thousand light years across.

Oh, it's certainly not better - it's a historical curiosity in the Wing Commander universe, something that existed before the jump drive was developed. They were far less efficient and much more dangerous.

Privateer 2 also has an FTL drive, the "D Drive".

I noticed it, but I'm not sure what to make of it. It seems to suggest that roughly a quarter of the galactic disk has been explored. Since it's roughly 50,000 light years from the galactic core to the edge of the galaxy, this doesn't agree with the games/novels because Earth, Kilrah and surrounding territories have been described as only a few thousand light years apart. Where did this map come from?

It's one of the little charts that surrounds the Wing Commander Universe Map.

 

[Devari]

I don't see what you're going on about - they have been mentioned in the movie, which is part of the "main Wing Commander setting".

Actually, the Wing Commander movie is a "alternative" or "reinvented" Wing Commander setting. The characters, ships, technology and background from the orignal Wing Commander universe have all been changed (often very signficantly) to produce a product that is very different from the WC games and novels. I've been referring to the WC games/novels as the "main setting" since they are far more well known and are clearly very different from the WC movie.

If you're familiar with the new Battlestar Galactica series, it's a simliar type of situation. I haven't watched the orignal series, but from what I've been told there are many major changes that aren't compatible with the original series at all. For example, some of the main characters are very different. The character named Starbuck was male in the original serries, but in the new Battlestar Galactica Starbuck is female. And Baltar was working with the cylons in the orignal, but he's on the side of the humans in the new series. And the Cylons are totally different in the new series, they're essentially "organic" machines that are nearly indistinguishable from humans. So the new Battlestar Galactica isn't a "sequel" to the original, nor does it follow a "continuous" timeline with the original. The new Battlestar Galactica is essentailly a new, separate setting that borrows some theme and setting elements from the orignal. Same idea with the Wing Commander movie. It's been totally reinvented and simply can't be integrated successfully with the original games/novels. That's why I'm saying it should generally be ignored completely, there are simply too many changes to try to integrate it with the games/novels.

Look at the Border Worlds - they weren't mentioned anywhere in the first three games... but suddenly they were the group responsible for keeping the Kilrathi at bay because Wing Commander IV said so. No one questions that (anymore), because no one has an axe to grind with Wing Commander IV (anymore). The Wing Commander movie gave Blair a space religion - it's retroactive continuity, not the end of the world.

My point is, it isn't hard to integrate the Border Worlds with the rest of the WC novels or games. In fact, the novels describe the Border Worlds in a similar way as the Landreich, which had already been established in earlier novels. There's a lot of information that is transferred back and forth between the games and novels and they both compliment and reinforce each other. But you simply can't integrate the movie with the games/novels because there are too many changes. The movie doesn't provide "retroactive continuity" at all, it totally changes certain characters and completely alters the storyline.

(No, the Pilgrims aren't especially important in the greater scheme of things - they charted Pulsars for a period in history... the Confederation developed the Akwende Drive completely independantly -- that's explicitly part of the backstory in the Confederation Handbook. I mean, we see a Pulsar jumped... what, one other time in all the rest of Wing Commander? And it's our 'Pilgrim' character who gets sent to do it!)

But in the games and novels, Blair is not a pilgrim and we have absolutely no mention of pilgrims at all. In the movies, Blair is a pilgrim and pilgrims are well enough known that they are actively discriminated against by many people. These two concepts don't match up. Same thing with the nationalities of the main characters. In the games/novels, Angel has a French accent. But in the movie, she's British? And Paladin, who is Scottish in the games/novels, is suddenly French in the movie? The movie simply doesn't match up with the games/novels. Trying to force it to fit will never work, there are simply too many inconsistencies.

So, what, because we don't like the movie we're going to sit around with our hands in our ears until the next Wing Commander game shows up and lists its little story in a timeline? *That's* what makes something relevant?

It's not that I "don't like" the movie, it's that the movie is a reinvented vision of the WC universe and as such cannot be succesfully integrated with the games/novels. The movie tried to redefine WC in a completely new way that intentionally departed from the background information that was established in the games/novels.

Oh, it's certainly not better - it's a historical curiosity in the Wing Commander universe, something that existed before the jump drive was developed. They were far less efficient and much more dangerous.

Well, the WC FTL drives weren't particularly effective, although other FTL drives would provide certain advantages over jump drives. Warp drives would be considerably slower than jump drives but would have the advantage that they could be used in deep space. Warp drives could also be used to travel considerable distances away from a system and allow forces to operate far out of reach from WC ships, which couldn't follow them using jump or sublight drives. And hyperdrives would probably be considerably better than jump drives since they are about as fast as jump drives and have most of the avantages of warp drives. The fact that jump drives are intantaneous could provide some advantages to WC ships, however, since they allow WC ships to change their position almost immediately, something that warp drives and hyperdrives can't accomplish.

It's one of the little charts that surrounds the Wing Commander Universe Map.

And where is the Wing Commander Universe Map from?

 

[AD]

But in the games and novels, Blair is not a pilgrim and we have absolutely no mention of pilgrims at all.

So what! I don't recall them mentioning his lineage elsewhere else. What possible reason do we have to assume he isnt a Pilgrim. Especialy when the novels explain why they are pretty much of no consequence later in the timeline.

And where is the Wing Commander Universe Map from?

I think I got one in my Prophecy Box...

 

[Haesslich]

I'd agree that the distance the ship travels during the jump isn't particularly important since both jump points are fixed and the jump is essentially instantaneous. But it is still possible to calculate the "average" speed of jump point travel based on total time taken to get from one jump point to another and the total distance covered during the jumps. For example, the Hakaga fleet took rougly two weeks (let's say 15 days) to reach Earth from the edge of the Kilrathi Empire. That distance would have been at least 1500 light years from Earth, which gives them an average speed of roughly 100 ly/day (1500 ly / 15 days).

This is actually pretty fast compared to warp drive. Voyager would have taken 70 years to travel 70,000 ly to get back to the Alpha quadrant at their maximum sustainable speed (around warp 8, or 1000 c), which averages out to only around 3 ly/day by comparison. If voyager had a jump drive averaging 100 ly/day, they could have gotten home in about two years.

Leaving aside all the WC Movie stuff (already mentioned to have come from the WC bible, aka 'the source of all things Wing Commander'), I'll point out why your statement here makes no sense.

As Death has noted, that 15 days to travel from Kilrathi space into the heart of Confed space included ALL of the transit time between jump points - you don't just jump from system to system using the same jump points; you have to go from the jump point leading to Tyr to another jump point possibly halfway across the system at that time to make a jump to Masa, because a jump point only services a direct link between one system and another, where they 'touch' in jump-space. Therefore, to make a trip from Arcturus to Sol, you have to make four jumps - Arcturus to Weslyn, travel from the jump point to Arcturus to the jump point to Sirius, jump to Sirius, then make the transit from the jump point to Weslyn to the jump point to Sol, and finally jump to Sol before making the last leg of your trip to Luna.

Furthermore, some jump points may be closer together in a system than some others, which means that your 'speed' figures will be affected by this - if I have three jump points an hour apart, and they connect a total of four systems about a dozen light years apart, then if I can go from System A to System D in 5 hours, does that mean that my jump speed should be based on that? If I go from System A to System C via System B with a transit time of approximately 18 hours, for a total of 20 or so hours in transit, does that mean my average jump speed is slower if System C and System a were the same d istance as System A and System D in the previous example? If System C and System A were five hundred light years apart, does that make my average jump 'speed' a lot faster?

Also, given your logic, a trip that jump travel goes around 100 light years a day, then I should be able to go to Epsilon Indi (11.8 light years away) as fast as I can get to Alpha Centauri (4.22 light years away), Proxima Centauri, or Wolf 359 (7.8 light years away), or even Vega (25 light years away) with one jump, because it's 'that fast'. However, while it takes but one jump to go to Alpha Centauri, it takes two jumps to go to Proxima Centauri, three to go to Wolf 359, and four to go to Epsilon Indi or Vega. If I try to calculate jump speed based on these distances, then either jumping goes about 6 light years a day (if I'm coming from Vega and heading to Earth) or else it'll be about the rate of 2.45 light years a day. The jumps from Earth to Wolf 359 average a speed of 2.6 light years a day, if we're assuming that each jump point takes about a day to clear in terms of in-system travel.

Where this really breaks down is when we try to calculate how long a trip to Antares would be, based on your formula - Antares - aka Alpha Scorpii - is approximately 520 light years away, and 6 jumps from Sol, which means that, according to your method of calculating 'speeds', that the speed of a jump is around 86.7 light years/day.... well short of the 100 ly/day figure you calculated above.

Which one of these figures is the correct 'average speed' figure for jump? The answer is obviously 'none of the above' - jumps are instantaneous, and trying to calculate speeds based on realspace distance between stars divided the travel time is the height of idiocy when that realspace distance is not a factor in the method of travel... and especially when you've ignored factors like the time devoted to in-system travel, which makes up the bulk of the transit time in WC. The space between stars is not going to matter, unless you're talking about something like the Moravan drive which actually transits that distance (albeit in jumpspace), or with something like warp drive (which doesn't exist in WC).

It's like trying to figure out how fast a car can go by measuring the size of its hubcaps - that has nothing to do with the method by which a car moves, nor does it take into account factors such as engine power, the mass of the vehicle's frame and engine, and various other factors which affect its speed.

And where is the Wing Commander Universe Map from?

From the WC map that came with Prophecy - you know, one of those official games which officially develop WC history. It also mentions how real-space distance is immaterial when it comes to jump point travel, so they discount it when discussing how far apart various systems are, and how 'fast' they can get anywhere.

Or is the game ALSO not-canon, because you dislike it? It's like saying that, just because Paladin was never announced to be a Special Ops type in WC1, that his appearing as one in WC2 and WC3 makes no sense; he had a history in Special Ops, and by SM2 was engaging in it on behalf a certain Vice Admiral, just as he did in a certain movie.

 

[Ijuin]

The problems that Haesslich has stated are exactly the reason why the Akwende projection map is preferable for use in navigation in the WC setting. The 3-dimensional distance between systems is irrelavant; only the number of jumps and the in-system distance to traverse matter--it's as though all of the space BETWEEN systems did not exist, only the systems themselves.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Actually, the Wing Commander movie is a "alternative" or "reinvented" Wing Commander setting. The characters, ships, technology and background from the orignal Wing Commander universe have all been changed (often very signficantly) to produce a product that is very different from the WC games and novels. I've been referring to the WC games/novels as the "main setting" since they are far more well known and are clearly very different from the WC movie.

The problem is that you have no basis for making this claim; it's just something you've decided because you didn't like the movie. If we had the ability to disregard information solely on the basis of whether or not we personally agreed with it then we'd never get anything decided.

If you're familiar with the new Battlestar Galactica series, it's a simliar type of situation. I haven't watched the orignal series, but from what I've been told there are many major changes that aren't compatible with the original series at all. For example, some of the main characters are very different. The character named Starbuck was male in the original serries, but in the new Battlestar Galactica Starbuck is female. And Baltar was working with the cylons in the orignal, but he's on the side of the humans in the new series. And the Cylons are totally different in the new series, they're essentially "organic" machines that are nearly indistinguishable from humans. So the new Battlestar Galactica isn't a "sequel" to the original, nor does it follow a "continuous" timeline with the original. The new Battlestar Galactica is essentailly a new, separate setting that borrows some theme and setting elements from the orignal. Same idea with the Wing Commander movie. It's been totally reinvented and simply can't be integrated successfully with the original games/novels. That's why I'm saying it should generally be ignored completely, there are simply too many changes to try to integrate it with the games/novels.

Battlestar Galactica has its producer going around explaining that it's a re-invention of the concept -- Wing Commander has its director claiming that it's *not*.

My point is, it isn't hard to integrate the Border Worlds with the rest of the WC novels or games. In fact, the novels describe the Border Worlds in a similar way as the Landreich, which had already been established in earlier novels. There's a lot of information that is transferred back and forth between the games and novels and they both compliment and reinforce each other. But you simply can't integrate the movie with the games/novels because there are too many changes. The movie doesn't provide "retroactive continuity" at all, it totally changes certain characters and completely alters the storyline.

I don't think the movie does anything more serious than Wing Commander IV's claim that half the systems we *actually fought in* in the earlier games were really, secretly "Border Worlds".

But in the games and novels, Blair is not a pilgrim and we have absolutely no mention of pilgrims at all. In the movies, Blair is a pilgrim and pilgrims are well enough known that they are actively discriminated against by many people. These two concepts don't match up. Same thing with the nationalities of the main characters. In the games/novels, Angel has a French accent. But in the movie, she's British? And Paladin, who is Scottish in the games/novels, is suddenly French in the movie? The movie simply doesn't match up with the games/novels. Trying to force it to fit will never work, there are simply too many inconsistencies.

Oh, no, Angel isn't French and Paladin isn't Scottish? Just like in the original game, Angel in the movie is Flemish and Paladin is from a space station. The movie novelization takes that (and lots and lots of other things) right out of Claw Marks. (Using a British actress to play a French - or in this case Belgian - character is certainly nothing new... just look at Captain Picard. Not that the girl they got to do the voice in Wing Commander II had a remotely French accent in the first place, though...)

As for Blair's religion (not even that - the religion of one of his parents)... when is it ever referenced in the game? It's not a contradiction if NOTHING CONTRADICTS IT. Hey, WCIV says Blair is from Nephele -- but it wasn't mentioned earlier, it must be a lie! Hey, WC3 says Blair's *NAME* is "Blair"! Why, they didn't mention that earlier, WC3 must be contradictory and we should ignore it! Etc. It's not good logic.

And where is the Wing Commander Universe Map from?

The giant map that came with Prophecy.

 

[Devari]

Leaving aside all the WC Movie stuff (already mentioned to have come from the WC bible, aka 'the source of all things Wing Commander'), I'll point out why your statement here makes no sense.

As Death has noted, that 15 days to travel from Kilrathi space into the heart of Confed space included ALL of the transit time between jump points - you don't just jump from system to system using the same jump points; you have to go from the jump point leading to Tyr to another jump point possibly halfway across the system at that time to make a jump to Masa, because a jump point only services a direct link between one system and another, where they 'touch' in jump-space. Therefore, to make a trip from Arcturus to Sol, you have to make four jumps - Arcturus to Weslyn, travel from the jump point to Arcturus to the jump point to Sirius, jump to Sirius, then make the transit from the jump point to Weslyn to the jump point to Sol, and finally jump to Sol before making the last leg of your trip to Luna.

Ok, you obviously don't understand what I've been saying because you just repeated the same concept I had mentioend in an earlier post. Here's what I posted earlier:

That's exactly my point. Just because the actual jump itself is instantaneous doesn't overcome the other limitations of jump point travel. I was calculating the average sustained travel speed since that's really all that matters if you want to go from point A to point B. Unlike warp drive or hyperdrive, Wing Commander ships need to use pre-existing jump points and can't simply program in a desired course. This means they can't travel directly into deep space at faster-than-light speeds, they can only jump from one star system to another. The average rate of jump drive travel is still much faster than warp drive but is less convenient due to the need to rely on pre-existing jump points.

From the WC map that came with Prophecy - you know, one of those official games which officially develop WC history. It also mentions how real-space distance is immaterial when it comes to jump point travel, so they discount it when discussing how far apart various systems are, and how 'fast' they can get anywhere.

That would seem to indicate that by the start of Prophecy they've explored about a quarter of the galactic disk. However, they definately haven't explored this far by WC4 based on the information in the games/novels. Presumably they have substantially expaneded their territories during the time between WC4 and Prophecy.

Or is the game ALSO not-canon, because you dislike it? It's like saying that, just because Paladin was never announced to be a Special Ops type in WC1, that his appearing as one in WC2 and WC3 makes no sense; he had a history in Special Ops, and by SM2 was engaging in it on behalf a certain Vice Admiral, just as he did in a certain movie.

Again, did you read what I posted earlier? If you had read my earlier posts you'd have seen the following:

It's not that I "don't like" the movie, it's that the movie is a reinvented vision of the WC universe and as such cannot be succesfully integrated with the games/novels. The movie tried to redefine WC in a completely new way that intentionally departed from the background information that was established in the games/novels.

Please carefully read my posts in the future so I don't have to repeat myself.

 

[Devari]

The problems that Haesslich has stated are exactly the reason why the Akwende projection map is preferable for use in navigation in the WC setting. The 3-dimensional distance between systems is irrelavant; only the number of jumps and the in-system distance to traverse matter--it's as though all of the space BETWEEN systems did not exist, only the systems themselves.

Agreed, the distance travelled during a single jump isn't necessarily relevant in determing your total "average" speed during jump travel. The WC bible mentions that one jump could take you 1000 ly while three jumps could only take you 20 ly. So i'm not trying to suggest that a jump drive will necessarily allow you to move at 100 ly/day, since that depends entirely on the number of jump points and the route they follow. But due to the other limitations of jump travel, such as the need to travel to another jump point at sublight, the need to recharge your jump drives, and the need to follow a jump point route that may not be the most efficient route, traveling along jump lines will have certain practical limitations. Based on the time it took for the Hakaga fleet to reach Earth, it appears that, on average, jump drives will take you 100 ly/day. Again, this is totally depenent on the route you're following, but it nonetheless gives a rough estimate of how efficient jump drives are for moving throughout the galaxy.

 

[Devari]

The problem is that you have no basis for making this claim; it's just something you've decided because you didn't like the movie. If we had the ability to disregard information solely on the basis of whether or not we personally agreed with it then we'd never get anything decided.

Battlestar Galactica has its producer going around explaining that it's a re-invention of the concept -- Wing Commander has its director claiming that it's *not*.

Actually, I remember an interview with Chris Roberts where he mentioned that he saw the WC movie as a chance to "redefine" or "reinvent" the WC setting. I'm not sure what his exact words were, but it was clear that he was changing many aspects of the original games/novels to come up with a new setting.

I don't think the movie does anything more serious than Wing Commander IV's claim that half the systems we *actually fought in* in the earlier games were really, secretly "Border Worlds".

Oh, no, Angel isn't French and Paladin isn't Scottish? Just like in the original game, Angel in the movie is Flemish and Paladin is from a space station. The movie novelization takes that (and lots and lots of other things) right out of Claw Marks. (Using a British actress to play a French - or in this case Belgian - character is certainly nothing new... just look at Captain Picard. Not that the girl they got to do the voice in Wing Commander II had a remotely French accent in the first place, though...)

As for Blair's religion (not even that - the religion of one of his parents)... when is it ever referenced in the game? It's not a contradiction if NOTHING CONTRADICTS IT. Hey, WCIV says Blair is from Nephele -- but it wasn't mentioned earlier, it must be a lie! Hey, WC3 says Blair's *NAME* is "Blair"! Why, they didn't mention that earlier, WC3 must be contradictory and we should ignore it! Etc. It's not good logic.

The games/novels all make an effort to agree with each other as much as possible. The games were used directly as a basis for the novels, and material from the novels found its way into the games (especially the documentation). This is not the case with the movie, many things were totally changed and added (such as the pilgrims) that never existed in the games/novels. There was no effort made to make the movie "compatible" with the games/novels, in fact, many things were intentionally changed to make the setting very different from what we see in the games/novels.

 

[AD]

The games/novels all make an effort to agree with each other as much as possible. The games were used directly as a basis for the novels, and material from the novels found its way into the games (especially the documentation). This is not the case with the movie, many things were totally changed and added (such as the pilgrims) that never existed in the games/novels. There was no effort made to make the movie "compatible" with the games/novels, in fact, many things were intentionally changed to make the setting very different from what we see in the games/novels.

Quit being an ass. Your saying the same thing over and over without providing any proof in the face of the information people are presenting. Just for example, Why the hell would they bother referencing fake advertisements found in claw marks if they weren't trying to tie the movie to the rest of the WC Canon.

 

[Devari]

Quit being an ass. Your saying the same thing over and over without providing any proof in the face of the information people are presenting. Just for example, Why the hell would they bother referencing fake advertisements found in claw marks if they weren't trying to tie the movie to the rest of the WC Canon.

So you're trying to say that the movie doesn't contradict the games/novels? So could you tell me what Rapiers are supposed to look like then? Are they streamlined starfighers with neutron guns and laser cannons from the games/novels? Or do they look like World War II fighters with nose-mounted gatling guns from the movie? Because the way Rapiers are depicted in the movie is totally different from the games/novels. As I said before, the movie is simply a separate setting, it can't be combined with the other WC sources. The ships and technology from the games/novels - which are probably the most defining part of the Wing Commander setting - are totally changed in the movie. And many of the main characters (Blair, Angel, Paladin, and so on) are also altered signficantly in the movie. So you can try to claim that the movie is somehow "compatible" with the rest of the WC material, but anyone who has watched the movie knows that simply isn't true.

 

[AD]

So you're trying to say that the movie doesn't contradict the games/novels? So could you tell me what Rapiers are supposed to look like then? Are they streamlined starfighers with neutron guns and laser cannons from the games/novels? Or do they look like World War II fighters with nose-mounted gatling guns from the movie? Because the way Rapiers are depicted in the movie is totally different from the games/novels.

They are diferent models with different model numbers

...many of the main characters (Blair, Angel, Paladin, and so on) are also altered signficantly in the movie.

Mark hamil doesnt look much like the cartoon character in wc1, 2 either. So what!

anyone who has watched the movie knows that simply isn't true

Careful with the broad generalizations, because this thread proves that isnt true. (A quick search will net you dozens or past threads on all these exact issues)

 

[Bandit LOAF]

So you're trying to say that the movie doesn't contradict the games/novels? So could you tell me what Rapiers are supposed to look like then? Are they streamlined starfighers with neutron guns and laser cannons from the games/novels? Or do they look like World War II fighters with nose-mounted gatling guns from the movie? Because the way Rapiers are depicted in the movie is totally different from the games/novels. As I said before, the movie is simply a separate setting, it can't be combined with the other WC sources. The ships and technology from the games/novels - which are probably the most defining part of the Wing Commander setting - are totally changed in the movie. And many of the main characters (Blair, Angel, Paladin, and so on) are also altered signficantly in the movie. So you can try to claim that the movie is somehow "compatible" with the rest of the WC material, but anyone who has watched the movie knows that simply isn't true.

The problem is that your same argument can be applied to Wing Commander III -- it's a complete visual change from the first two games!

The movie is... what, the third or fourth time the Tiger's Claw and her crew has been 'redesigned'? Original, Academy, Super Wing Commander... why does movie get ignored, despite the fact that it's the one of these projects that was completely helmed by the series' creator?

Even the original Wing Commander contradicts its 'style' -- the Tiger's Claw itself has three contradictory 'looks' within the original Wing Commander itself.

Actually, I remember an interview with Chris Roberts where he mentioned that he saw the WC movie as a chance to "redefine" or "reinvent" the WC setting. I'm not sure what his exact words were, but it was clear that he was changing many aspects of the original games/novels to come up with a new setting.

I'm pretty sure we've brought up a number of interviews with him over the years where he says the exact opposite of this (in all respects but 'look', which he certainly hoped to redefine in much the same way as Wing Commander III did).

The games/novels all make an effort to agree with each other as much as possible. The games were used directly as a basis for the novels, and material from the novels found its way into the games (especially the documentation). This is not the case with the movie, many things were totally changed and added (such as the pilgrims) that never existed in the games/novels. There was no effort made to make the movie "compatible" with the games/novels, in fact, many things were intentionally changed to make the setting very different from what we see in the games/novels.

Great, except we've pointed out several even larger issues where the games utilize much larger retcons than the movie, and all you've done is repeat this same line over and over. Address these claims or sit down.

 

[Devari]

They are diferent models with different model numbers

They aren't just slightly different, they look COMPLETELY different. The movie rapier bears no ressemblance at all to the rapier from the games. They also use totally different weapons technology (gatling cannon vs. laser and neutron weapons).

Mark hamil doesnt look much like the cartoon character in wc1, 2 either. So what!

You're comparing a cartoon character from 1990 with an actual person. So of course they aren't going to match up particularly well. Blair is also much older in WC3, so you wouldn't expect him to look exactly the same as he did in WC1 or WC2 anyways.

Careful with the broad generalizations, because this thread proves that isnt true. (A quick search will net you dozens or past threads on all these exact issues)

I still don't see how anyone who has played the original WC games and watched the movie could claim that they are both trying to depict the same Wing Commander setting. The ships and technology are different and completely new plot elements (such as the pilgrims) are introduced as a major part of the movie setting. As I mentioned above, it would be like trying to make the new Battlestar Galactica series "compatible" with the original series.

 

[Devari]

The problem is that your same argument can be applied to Wing Commander III -- it's a complete visual change from the first two games!

Actually, if you have Origin's Official Guide to Wing Commander III they provide a technical explanation of why Kilrathi ships design changed so radically from WC2 to WC3. Basically, it's a consequence of the fact that bitmap graphics were used in WC1 and WC2. To minimize their workload, they made all the ships symmetrical and processed half of each ship, using the mirror image for the other half. For Armada and WC3, which used polygon grapics, there was no longer any need to keep the ships symmetrical, so they were able to create highly asymmetrical designs for Kilrathi ships. So due to purely technical limitations the games are often not as detailed or complex as the designers would like. This is why the novels introduce a large amount of background material that goes into much greater detail than the computer games can.

The movie is... what, the third or fourth time the Tiger's Claw and her crew has been 'redesigned'? Original, Academy, Super Wing Commander... why does movie get ignored, despite the fact that it's the one of these projects that was completely helmed by the series' creator?

Even the original Wing Commander contradicts its 'style' -- the Tiger's Claw itself has three contradictory 'looks' within the original Wing Commander itself.

The computer games always maintained a consistent look for the claw. Some console games and the movie totally departed from this, but that's not relevant to the main setting of the computer games and novels.

For example, the Jalthi in the WC1 super nintendo version looks just like a Salthi that they've coloured green. The programmers for the SNES version simply didn't program a proper Jalthi design into the game and decided to re-use the Salthi model. That doesn't mean we now suddenly have to fit the green Salthi into the storyline as a "Jalthi variant". It just means that the programmers didn't include a proper Jalthi model in the SNES version of WC1. That's why I'm saying that the computer games and novels should be relied upon rather than trying to fit contradictory sources such as the movie into the main storyline.

Great, except we've pointed out several even larger issues where the games utilize much larger retcons than the movie, and all you've done is repeat this same line over and over. Address these claims or sit down.

What "larger issues" are you referring to? No one has brough up any serious problems with the games or novels that do not have a reasonable explanation. Some people seem determined to fit the movie in with the rest of the wing commander setting, but that's nearly impossible because of all the changes made in the movie.

 

[LeHah]

What "larger issues" are you referring to? No one has brough up any serious problems with the games or novels that do not have a reasonable explanation. Some people seem determined to fit the movie in with the rest of the wing commander setting, but that's nearly impossible because of all the changes made in the movie.

The only changes are in your own understanding of the timeline. These things have always been there, just gone without mention. Just because you've never heard of Ellis Alfred Swearengen in real life doesn't mean he never existed, it just shows that you don't know him. The same goes for Blair's past or the existence of Pilgrims or any number of things that are carefully inserted into the movie and do not change or contradict with already established continuity. To argue this point further - which many have before - almost always ends with being banned because you florish in arguing for arguement's sake and little else.

Just because you think you are right does not changed set continuity. No one is buying the Brooklyn Bridge from you, buddy.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Actually, if you have Origin's Official Guide to Wing Commander III they provide a technical explanation of why Kilrathi ships design changed so radically from WC2 to WC3. Basically, it's a consequence of the fact that bitmap graphics were used in WC1 and WC2. To minimize their workload, they made all the ships symmetrical and processed half of each ship, using the mirror image for the other half. For Armada and WC3, which used polygon grapics, there was no longer any need to keep the ships symmetrical, so they were able to create highly asymmetrical designs for Kilrathi ships. So due to purely technical limitations the games are often not as detailed or complex as the designers would like. This is why the novels introduce a large amount of background material that goes into much greater detail than the computer games can.

Well, there you go - you understand why updating the graphic engine in Wing Commander III made all the ships (and the characters, etc.) look different. You just accept that that's how life is when you make such a leap forward... but despite all this you *don't* understand how a $40 million movie would look different from a video game developed ten years earlier? You get the jump from bitmaps in WC1 to 3D and live actors in WC3... but you don't understand the jump from bitmaps in WC1 to 3D and live actors in the movie?

The computer games always maintained a consistent look for the claw. Some console games and the movie totally departed from this, but that's not relevant to the main setting of the computer games and novels.

No, they didn't. There are no less than three distinct versions of the Tiger's Claw in Wing Commander I alone: the Claw Marks drawing (with five engines), the in-game model (with six engines) and the cut scene version (with seven engines).

For example, the Jalthi in the WC1 super nintendo version looks just like a Salthi that they've coloured green. The programmers for the SNES version simply didn't program a proper Jalthi design into the game and decided to re-use the Salthi model. That doesn't mean we now suddenly have to fit the green Salthi into the storyline as a "Jalthi variant". It just means that the programmers didn't include a proper Jalthi model in the SNES version of WC1. That's why I'm saying that the computer games and novels should be relied upon rather than trying to fit contradictory sources such as the movie into the main storyline.

You left out the punchline of the Green Salthi story: the artist asked to do the cover for the second SNES release, decided to paint the 'baddest' Kilrathi ship... and so The Secret Missions wound up with an armed-to-the-teeth Green Salthi on the cover.

What "larger issues" are you referring to? No one has brough up any serious problems with the games or novels that do not have a reasonable explanation. Some people seem determined to fit the movie in with the rest of the wing commander setting, but that's nearly impossible because of all the changes made in the movie.

Allright, lets do this one more time - tell me how Wing Commander IV's invention of an entirely new human faction (including the fact that we'd apparently already visited there in the previous games) is any less of an egregious instance of retroactive continuity than the Wing Commander movie inventing a religion for Blair's mom to have belonged to?

Now, I mean it - you respond to this point. Do not ramble on vaugely about how you think there may be some kind of contradiction somewhere in the movie. Address my point about Wing Commander IV. How is it different from the movie in this respect?

 

[Devari]

The only changes are in your own understanding of the timeline. These things have always been there, just gone without mention. Just because you've never heard of Ellis Alfred Swearengen in real life doesn't mean he never existed, it just shows that you don't know him. The same goes for Blair's past or the existence of Pilgrims or any number of things that are carefully inserted into the movie and do not change or contradict with already established continuity.

Obviously there are many aspects of the WC setting that can't be addressed by the games/novels. I'm not saying that just because something wasn't stated in the games/novels doesn't mean it can't exist in the WC setting. What I'm saying is that to suddenly include something such as the pilgrims as a major aspect of the WC movie, when they never existed anywhere else in WC, is a very unrealistic thing to incorporate into the WC setting.

To argue this point further - which many have before - almost always ends with being banned because you florish in arguing for arguement's sake and little else.

Are you actually trying to suggest that arguing that the Wing Commander movie doesn't fit the rest of the Wing Commander setting could get someone banned? That's one of the funniest things I've ever heard.

Just because you think you are right does not changed set continuity. No one is buying the Brooklyn Bridge from you, buddy.

Its obvious to me that the WC movie is an alternative or reinnvented WC setting, which is why I don't relying on it for background information. If other people are determined to incorporate it into the main setting, they can go right ahead, but as I said many times before I think it's a futile task because of all the changes.