Size of the Confederation and Kilrathi territories.

[LeHah]

What I'm saying is that to suddenly include something such as the pilgrims as a major aspect of the WC movie, when they never existed anywhere else in WC, is a very unrealistic thing to incorporate into the WC setting.

Not in the slightest. We see this all the time in every major sci-fi franchise. Look at the Star Wars prequels - they're chock full of that. Or what about those episodes of Enterprise with the Tholians that tied directly into the Original Series?

The fact that they continue to expand the universe with more information continues with or without you. Either come for the ride - or jump off now; it doesn't stop for anyone.

Are you're actually trying to suggest that by arguing that the Wing Commander movie doesn't fit the rest of the Wing Commander setting could get someone banned? That's one of the funniest things I've ever heard.

You'd be surprised by the stupidity the internet reaches. The CIC tends to shy away from such embarassments by cutting out such cancer at it's source. When one doesn't listen to reason and logic with the things presented to such - those people continue to bitch like they were traded for a carton of smokes. Those people then just continue to argue for the sake of arguing and are thusly banned. I don't make the rules here, I just follow them.

Its obvious to me that the WC movie is an alternative or reinnvented WC setting, which is why I don't relying on it for background information.

Thats too bad - since the movie directly ties into the Academy TV series, the novels and the games in many direct and indirect ways. If you choose to be ignorant of such, don't expect to be playing this game of yours for much longer.

If other people are determined to incorporate it into the main setting, they can go right ahead, but as I said many times before I think it's a futile task because of all the changes.

That train of thought is instantly derailed - are you telling me all other WC material made after the first game should be ignored because it changes the timeline or information that the original presented?

 

[AD]

They aren't just slightly different, they look COMPLETELY different. The movie rapier bears no ressemblance at all to the rapier from the games. They also use totally different weapons technology (gatling cannon vs. laser and neutron weapons).

My '81 malibu looked nothing like my 2005 Malibu LS either. PLus the new one has loads of features the older one didn't

You're comparing a cartoon character from 1990 with an actual person. So of course they aren't going to match up particularly well. Blair is also much older in WC3, so you wouldn't expect him to look exactly the same as he did in WC1 or WC2 anyways.

Your wrong there too. Blair is only 2 (I think thats right) years older in wc3 as compared to wc2. The ten year difference is between the wc2 intro and the main portion of the game.

Plus this doesnt adress wca-tv. Unsurprisingly, a young blair looks remarkably like... Mark Hamil! According to your logic, why wouldnt they, given the opportunity, bridge the look of wc1,2 blair, and wc3,4 blair?

 

[Devari]

Well, there you go - you understand why updating the
graphic engine in Wing Commander III made all the ships (and the
characters, etc.) look different. You just accept that that's how life is
when you make such a leap forward... but despite all this you *don't*
understand how a $40 million movie would look different from a video game
developed ten years earlier? You get the jump from bitmaps in WC1 to 3D
and live actors in WC3... but you don't understand the jump from bitmaps
in WC1 to 3D and live actors in the movie?

The difference is that WC3 had extensive video sequences that maintained
the look and setting of the original WC games. Despite the technological advances the later games clearly "fit in" with the earlier games, so there's no reason why a movie would need to depart from the established WC setting. But the WC movie didn't try to maintain the original setting, it totally redesigned it. The movie Rapier, for example, looks nothing like the WC1 and WC2 Rapiers. They don't even look like the same style of spacraft (one looks like a fighter jet, the other looks like a WWII fighter plane). The new design for the Rapier wasn't based on technological advances at all - it was a conscious choice that was made to reinvent/redesign the look and feel of the WC setting.

No, they didn't. There are no less than three distinct
versions of the Tiger's Claw in Wing Commander I alone: the Claw Marks
drawing (with five engines), the in-game model (with six engines) and the
cut scene version (with seven engines).

Minor variations, such as a different number of engines, doesn't constitute a major change. They were all clearly recognizable as the Tiger's Claw, unlike the movie Rapier, which looked like an entirely new craft.

You left out the punchline of the Green Salthi
story: the artist asked to do the cover for the second SNES release,
decided to paint the 'baddest' Kilrathi ship... and so The Secret Missions
wound up with an armed-to-the-teeth Green Salthi on the cover.

I wasn't aware that artwork was based on the Green Salthi because the artist though it was supposed to be a powerful Kilrathi ship. It's pretty amusing to play the SNES version and see those "Salthi" tearing apart your Raptor though.

Allright, lets do this one more time - tell me how Wing
Commander IV's invention of an entirely new human faction (including the
fact that we'd apparently already visited there in the previous games) is
any less of an egregious instance of retroactive continuity than the Wing
Commander movie inventing a religion for Blair's mom to have belonged to?

Now, I mean it - you respond to this point. Do not ramble on vaugely about
how you think there may be some kind of contradiction somewhere in the
movie. Address my point about Wing Commander IV. How is it different from
the movie in this respect?

This is actually the first time you asked a direct question about the Border Worlds. The difference with the addition of the Border Worlds is that in earlier games, there was little mention of other human worlds at all because the characters were stationed on a carrier at the front lines of the Kilrathi war. So it isn't surprizing that we didn't hear much about the Border Worlds in earlier games - they simply wouldn't had much of an impact on the Kilrathi war since it was the Confederation that was involved in most of the heavy fighting on the front lines. Introducing the Union of Border Worlds in WC4 doesn't contractict or conflict with anything from the earlier games, it simply adds another element to the WC setting.

Now, I agree that if you just take the pilgrim story from the movie it also wouldn't have had much of a major effect if it was simply added as background information. But it isn't simply background info, we suddenly we have a major part of the plot focused on Blair's mother being a pilgrim and on pilgrims being discriminated against. And that's not the only change, we also have changes to the ships and techology and to the other main characters. When you take all the changes in the movie you don't simply have "additions" to the original setting, you have a new setting entirely. That's the difference between the games, which added material to the WC setting, and the movie, which totally replaced established material.

 

[Devari]

Not in the slightest. We see this all the time in every major sci-fi franchise. Look at the Star Wars prequels - they're chock full of that. Or what about those episodes of Enterprise with the Tholians that tied directly into the Original Series?

The fact that they continue to expand the universe with more information continues with or without you. Either come for the ride - or jump off now; it doesn't stop for anyone.

There's a big difference here. The movie didn't "expand" or "continue" the WC universe. It redesigned the WC setting entirely with new ships, technology, and major changes to the plot and main characters. Enterprise and the Star Wars prequils didn't "remake" their original series, they took place prior to the original series and added more background information to the setting.

You'd be surprised by the stupidity the internet reaches. The CIC tends to shy away from such embarassments by cutting out such cancer at it's source. When one doesn't listen to reason and logic with the things presented to such - those people continue to bitch like they were traded for a carton of smokes. Those people then just continue to argue for the sake of arguing and are thusly banned. I don't make the rules here, I just follow them.

I really don't see how that applies here. Unless one of the WC forum rules is "thou shalt not criticize the WC movie" then I can't imagine any reason why the mods would have a problem with anything I've posted. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm not making a valid argument. If you're trying to suggest that having my own opinion is bothering people, then I'd sugget that those people either get used to it, or post in a different thread.

Thats too bad - since the movie directly ties into the Academy TV series, the novels and the games in many direct and indirect ways. If you choose to be ignorant of such, don't expect to be playing this game of yours for much longer.

The movie was loosely based on the original WC game, but there is no possible way the movie has had ANY impact on the games whatsoever since the last WC game (Prophecy) was released in 1997 and the WC movie was relaased in 1999. The movie also hasn't influenced any of the novels that were written based on the games, since everything from Freedom Flight to False Colors was written in 1999 or earlier. So if you're trying to suggest that the movie was somehow incorporated into the games you might want to think about that concept again, because it simply isn't possible.

That train of thought is instantly derailed - are you telling me all other WC material made after the first game should be ignored because it changes the timeline or information that the original presented?

No, the later games do NOT change the timeline or information that was originally presented. The later games didn't replace or contradict anything from WC1, they simply continued the storyline. But the movie DID replace several elements from WC1 by changing ships, technology, characters, and major plot elements. Why do so many people have so much trouble understanding the difference between the movie, which actually changes the WC storyline, and the games, which simply continue the storyline without reinventing or changing it?

 

[Devari]

My '81 malibu looked nothing like my 2005 Malibu LS either. PLus the new one has loads of features the older one didn't

That's great, but we aren't dealing with a 1981 Rapier compared to a 2005 Rapier. We're dealing with the Rapiers that waere stationed on the Tiger's Claw. The movie Rapiers are supposed to represent the same fighter that was depicted in the games (not a later model), but they look completely different.

Your wrong there too. Blair is only 2 (I think thats right) years older in wc3 as compared to wc2. The ten year difference is between the wc2 intro and the main portion of the game.

I was referring to the time between WC1 to WC2. My point was that saying that the cartoon character from the WC2 cutscenes "doesn't look like Mark Hamil" isn't a valid criticism of the games. You're comparing a cartoon character to a specific actor who was chosen to play the role of Blair in WC3. How could you possibly expect them to look the same?

Plus this doesnt adress wca-tv. Unsurprisingly, a young blair looks remarkably like... Mark Hamil! According to your logic, why wouldnt they, given the opportunity, bridge the look of wc1,2 blair, and wc3,4 blair?

It's a simple matter for them to draw cartoon characters so that they look like Mark Hamil. But how could you possibly expect them to find an actor that closely ressembles the cartoon Blair fron WC1? Their main priority was finding an actor who fit the role well, and in that respect they did an excellent job. It turns out that Mark Hamil makes an excellent Blair. But you can't expect them to find an actor who exactly matches the cartoon's appearance. That would be a totally retarded expectation, since they're NEVER going to find someone who looks exactly like the WC1 cartoon.

 

[Haesslich]

Agreed, the distance travelled during a single jump isn't necessarily relevant in determing your total "average" speed during jump travel. The WC bible mentions that one jump could take you 1000 ly while three jumps could only take you 20 ly. So i'm not trying to suggest that a jump drive will necessarily allow you to move at 100 ly/day, since that depends entirely on the number of jump points and the route they follow. But due to the other limitations of jump travel, such as the need to travel to another jump point at sublight, the need to recharge your jump drives, and the need to follow a jump point route that may not be the most efficient route, traveling along jump lines will have certain practical limitations. Based on the time it took for the Hakaga fleet to reach Earth, it appears that, on average, jump drives will take you 100 ly/day. Again, this is totally depenent on the route you're following, but it nonetheless gives a rough estimate of how efficient jump drives are for moving throughout the galaxy.

Funny - on the one hand you say that you're not suggesting the jump drive will let you move 100ly/day, but at the end of that paragraph, you're saying that 'on average, a jump drive will move you 100 ly/day'. Tell me how you're not contradicting yourself again? A jump drive avoids the need for dealing with physical distances between systems when travelling, so trying to measure its 'speed' with those physical distances is nonsensical - for example, the Enigma jump lets you cross the whole sector in one jump; if you're using that to measure your average speed, than what does that do to your average? You're assuming that the Hakaga fleet followed the most efficient route to get to Earth, which may not be the case; it may have been one of the few direct routes that ships that size could go, but whether that's representative of the 'speed' of a jump drive is another story.

Jump drives ignore physical space-time relationships in terms of distance, which means that measuring their 'speed' is a non-issue. The only real measure of importance is the number of jump points required to cross from point A to point B.

Obviously there are many aspects of the WC setting that can't be addressed by the games/novels. I'm not saying that just because something wasn't stated in the games/novels doesn't mean it can't exist in the WC setting. What I'm saying is that to suddenly include something such as the pilgrims as a major aspect of the WC movie, when they never existed anywhere else in WC, is a very unrealistic thing to incorporate into the WC setting.

Seether, according to the WC4 data, was in his twenties by the time WC4 rolled around (2673)... which places the date of his birth in the decade of the first WC game (2650-54), and so the Black Lance project has been going on for at least that long by the time of WC4. We never saw it anywhere else in the WC universe up till that point (no secret societies, no rumors of hidden special ops groups, etc)... and suddenly Seether shows up, and it's revealed that they were using genetic material from pilots, including Blair, for all those years (since he'd been spotted as a 'superior' subject back during flight training).

We've got a bunch of genetic 'supermen' in the first stage of The Project running about by 2673, who were suddenly added as a major aspect of that game, and they'd never existed anywhere else in WC. Very unrealistic to incorporate a whole group like that into WC. I don't see you complaining about that, though.

The difference is that WC3 had extensive video sequences that maintained
the look and setting of the original WC games. Despite the technological advances the later games clearly "fit in" with the earlier games, so there's no reason why a movie would need to depart from the established WC setting. But the WC movie didn't try to maintain this feel, it totally redesigned the original setting. The movie Rapier, for example, looks nothing like the WC1 and WC2 Rapiers. They don't even look like the same style of spacraft (one looks like a fighter jet, the other looks like a WWII fighter plane). The new design for the Rapier wasn't based on technological advances at all - it was a conscious choice that was made to reinvent/redesign the look and feel of the WC setting.

I don't see how WC3's sets maintained the look or setting of the previous WC games - the insides of the Victory looked nothing like the Tiger's Claw or the Concordia in terms of color scheme, furnishings, feel, or even uniforms - those were ALL different from the previous two games - WC3 missed the bomber jackets of WC1 and had different helmet styles from the previous two games, the Navy uniforms weren't cut or colored the same way, the fighters didn't have the bulbous look of the WC2 craft or the smoother and sleeker look of the WC1 craft - they were rather angular, especially the Longbow which had none of the wings that were mounted on practically every fighter in each of the previous games, the Scimitar included. None of the fighters in WC3 or WC4 looked like anything we'd have gotten out of the games, and only in Wing Commander Academy did they try to retroactively write them into the continuity - but I notice you're not complaining about that, while you're grumbling about the way they retroactively write in Pilgrims and supercruisers into the period just before WC1 in the Wing Commander Movie.

It's a simple matter for them to draw cartoon characters so that they look like Mark Hamil. But how could you possibly expect them to find an actor that closely ressembles the cartoon Blair fron WC1? Their main priority was finding an actor who fit the role well, and in that respect they did an excellent job. It turns out that Mark Hamil makes an excellent Blair. But you can't expect them to find an actor who exactly matches the cartoon's appearance. That would be a totally retarded expectation, since they're NEVER going to find someone who looks exactly like the WC1 cartoon.

On the one hand, you're complaining that the WC movie revised the look and feel of WC1 to the point that it was unrecognizable. On the other hand, you're not complaining when Blair looks totally different in the WC Academy cartoon, which itself looks different from WC3, or how Tolwyn in WC2 looked completely different from the guy in WC3, who looks different from the guy HERE. It's a totally retarded expectation to expect a cartoon to look like WC1 and which introduces ships and characters we never saw or heard about in the original game (Thrakath did not show up in WC1, nor did that priestess or any aliens on the Claw), a cartoon made several years after the game came out... but it's totally reasonable to expect a movie to look like WC1 and not introduce any new ships and characters we've never heard of or seen before in the same game, made several years after the game came out.

How is this not hypocrisy?

That would seem to indicate that by the start of Prophecy they've explored about a quarter of the galactic disk. However, they definately haven't explored this far by WC4 based on the information in the games/novels. Presumably they have substantially expaneded their territories during the time between WC4 and Prophecy.

Uh, I don't recall seeing any maps in WC4 of just how much of the galaxy had been explored by that time - how do you know they haven't done this? This is an assumption you've made into a 'fact' - we don't have enough data to say how much of the galactic disk they've gone through at this point. We don't know how much 'extra' space was explored in the time after the war, though they've apparently spent quite a bit of time and money rebuilding their military.


Remember your assumptions are just that - assumptions. Unless it's been published somewhere, it's a guess at best, and subject to change as soon as a contradicting fact somewhere helps your theory run aground.

Honestly, I don't see why you're arguing what the average 'speed' of a jump is when you've already acknowledged that the transit time between jumps is a non-issue, and that comparing it with another universe's method of travel is useless, especially when each has its own limitations.

 

[AD]

The movie Rapiers are supposed to represent the same fighter that was depicted in the games (not a later model), but they look completely different.

no they arent. Your not listening again. Heres something for you to mull over in your brain:

The Pilgrim Stars retcon is that they're two wholly separate fighters. It fits well with the background from the handbook -- the movie Rapier (CF-117) is a hundred years old and about to leave service... it's also supported by a reference in the Kilrathi Saga manual to the fact that the F-44 is the "Rapier II"... ie, the second fighter to be called Rapier. (For those unfamiliar with the convoluted 2654 timeline, the movie takes place in March and the Rapier II is introduced in the Kursawa Series of Wing Commander (1) in October.)

I was referring to the time between WC1 to WC2. My point was that saying that the cartoon character from the WC2 cutscenes "doesn't look like Mark Hamil" isn't a valid criticism of the games. You're comparing a cartoon character to a specific actor who was chosen to play the role of Blair in WC3. How could you possibly expect them to look the same?

It's a simple matter for them to draw cartoon characters so that they look like Mark Hamil. But how could you possibly expect them to find an actor that closely ressembles the cartoon Blair fron WC1? .... they're NEVER going to find someone who looks exactly like the WC1 cartoon.

Well DUUHHHHHHHHHH.... First you go of complaining how the actors in the movie are "different" than they are portayed in the games. So I point out that wc1,2 blair is Different than wc3,4 blair. And here you describe in detail how you have no problem accepting that. That's exactly my point. My point is not that I feel they should be the same. Don't get us started on the differences between wc1,2 Tolwyn and wc 3,4 tolwyn (and I mean the character, not the look).

 

[Devari]

First, regarding jump drives, you don't understand what I'm saying when I refer to the average speed of jump travel. Yes, jump lines will depend on local conditions. But they will generally connect to a nearby area of space with a large gravitational pull, i.e., a nearby star. The jump point doesn't randomly connect to just anywhere, it goes to another large mass source. So one jump point is likely to take you to a nearby star system, not half-way across the galaxy, because the jump line has to connect to a nearby gravitational force. So if you want to explore the galaxy using jump points, the more jumps you make in a certain direction the farther you are going to get from your starting point. Some jumps might be short and some might be long, but they will all generally connect to a nearby mass that is causing a large gravitational pull. That's why jump points don't connect to relatively low-mass objects such as planets and why they don't terminate in deep space - there needs to be a star or other large mass at both the departure point and the destination point of the jump. When I calculate the average speed of jump travel, I'm simply measuing the displacement from your point of origin. Since this is limited by the need to travel between jump ponits at sublight, the need to recharge your jump drive, and the need to follow a pre-existing jump point route, using jump points for space travel isn't an instantaneous process even though the actual jump itself is instantaneous. The Hakaga fleet shows that trying to use a jump drive to get from, say, Kilrah to Earth on the most direct route possible gives you an average speed of 100 ly/day. This doesn't mean all jump travel proceeds at this rate, it simply provides a good estimate of how fast you can effectively travel using a jump drive.

Secondly, you also don't understand what I've been saying about the WC movie. The movie REPLACES elements from WC1. The games and novels ADDED to WC1. See the difference? The movie REDESIGNED the WC setting, while the games and novels CONTINUED an established setting without replacing anything.

 

[Devari]

no they arent. Your not listening again. Heres something for you to mull over in your brain:

That's great that the handbook tries to provide an explanation for some of the differences, but it doesn't change the fact that the movie is very different from the games. The games don't have an "earlier" Rapier model at all. Saying "well there used to be one, but they phased it out" is a really weak attempt to explain the differences with the movie.

Well DUUHHHHHHHHHH.... First you go of complaining how the actors in the movie are "different" than they are portayed in the games. So I point out that wc1,2 blair is Different than wc3,4 blair. And here you describe in detail how you have no problem accepting that. That's exactly my point. My point is not that I feel they should be the same. Don't get us started on the differences between wc1,2 Tolwyn and wc 3,4 tolwyn (and I mean the character, not the look).

I was complaining that the accents and backgrounds of the main characters were intentionally changed. That's not the same as being able to find someone who looks exactly like the cartoon Blair. Many actors can do pretty good accents, so it wouldn't have been hard to ensure that the WC movie characters had the right accents. My point is that Chris Roberts intentionally changed the main characters when he made the movie.

 

[Sarty]

This is actually the first time you asked a direct question about the Border Worlds. The difference with the addition of the Border Worlds is that in earlier games, there was little mention of other human worlds at all because the characters were stationed on a carrier at the front lines of the Kilrathi war. So it isn't surprizing that we didn't hear much about the Border Worlds in earlier games - they simply wouldn't had much of an impact on the Kilrathi war since it was the Confederation that was involved in most of the heavy fighting on the front lines. Introducing the Union of Border Worlds in WC4 doesn't contractict or conflict with anything from the earlier games, it simply adds another element to the WC setting.

Now, I agree that if you just take the pilgrim story from the movie it also wouldn't have had much of a major effect if it was simply added as background information. But it isn't simply background info, we suddenly we have a major part of the plot focused on Blair's mother being a pilgrim and on pilgrims being discriminated against. And that's not the only change, we also have changes to the ships and techology and to the other main characters. When you take all the changes in the movie you don't simply have "additions" to the original setting, you have a new setting entirely. That's the difference between the games, which added material to the WC setting, and the movie, which totally replaced established material.

The Border Worlds aren't just a couple of systems that weren't mentioned in the games. They are an entirely separate faction...like the Pilgrims.

The Pilgrim aspect is just background info in light of the entire WC series. It was a major plot point in the movie, you make it seem as if all of WC now revolves around the story of the Pilgrims because of the movie. In WC4, the Border Worlds were a major plot point, that doesn't mean that all of WC now has to involve them. The same applies to the Pilgrims. The war with the Pilgrims was focused on during the movie, but it is just an addon, it doesn't contradict anything in earlier established WC.

You keep mentioning changes to the ships, but like LOAF said earlier, that is nothing more than a change in visual styles, the technology is the same. The movie Rapier is a completely different model of fighter from the game Rapier and is obviously a much older craft.

As far as the actors not fitting the characters perfectly, that is because of which actors were chosen, it doesn't mean the character now has to fit the actor. Taggart was played by a french person in the movie, does that mean that the character is now french? No, they are just actors. If you want to get picky like that, the WC1-2 Paladin spoke in heavily accented Scottish, I couldn't even understand his subtitles at times. Yet when the WC3-4 Paladin spoke, the only dead giveaway that he was Scottish was when he said "laddie". It is just the actor changing, not the character.

The movie was loosely based on the original WC game, but there is no possible way the movie has had ANY impact on the games whatsoever since the last WC game (Prophecy) was released in 1997 and the WC movie was relaased in 1999. The movie also hasn't influenced any of the novels that were written based on the games, since everything from Freedom Flight to False Colors was written in 1999 or earlier. So if you're trying to suggest that the movie was somehow incorporated into the games you might want to think about that concept again, because it simply isn't possible.

Huh? So it has nothing to do with the series because it was the last one made? I guess Star Wars Episode III isn't incorporated into Star Wars because it was made after all of the others too. i don't see your point here.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The difference is that WC3 had extensive video sequences that maintained
the look and setting of the original WC games. Despite the technological advances the later games clearly "fit in" with the earlier games, so there's no reason why a movie would need to depart from the established WC setting. But the WC movie didn't try to maintain the original setting, it totally redesigned it. The movie Rapier, for example, looks nothing like the WC1 and WC2 Rapiers. They don't even look like the same style of spacraft (one looks like a fighter jet, the other looks like a WWII fighter plane). The new design for the Rapier wasn't based on technological advances at all - it was a conscious choice that was made to reinvent/redesign the look and feel of the WC setting.

No, they didn't - everyone in the Confederation went from wearing neatly trimmed naval uniforms to lumpy garbage man jumpsuits with pictures of swords hot glue gunned to them. Everyone went from actual Army rank insignae to incomprehensible little squares. Paladin went from being a small blond man to being a large, brown haired one.

And drop the freaking Rapier comparison - complain about something that's actually supposed to be the same class of ship, like the Bengal or the Broadsword. The idea behind the Rapier (stated!) is that it's an earlier fighter and that the F-44 is the "Rapier II" (as referenced in the Kilrathi Saga manual). The Wing Commander movie takes place *before* Wing Commander I, which doesn't introduce the 'game Rapier' (Rapier II) until later in the year. The CF-117b Rapier has a completely distinct backstory from the F-44 Rapier II - they're only related in the same manner as the F-47 Thunderbolt is somehow related to the A-10 Thunderbolt II.

Minor variations, such as a different number of engines, doesn't constitute a major change. They were all clearly recognizable as the Tiger's Claw, unlike the movie Rapier, which looked like an entirely new craft.

See, now you're the one whose stretching things to include whatever you like over what you don't. Imagine if the Enterprise shifted the num ber of engines in each scene!

This is actually the first time you asked a direct question about the Border Worlds. The difference with the addition of the Border Worlds is that in earlier games, there was little mention of other human worlds at all because the characters were stationed on a carrier at the front lines of the Kilrathi war. So it isn't surprizing that we didn't hear much about the Border Worlds in earlier games - they simply wouldn't had much of an impact on the Kilrathi war since it was the Confederation that was involved in most of the heavy fighting on the front lines. Introducing the Union of Border Worlds in WC4 doesn't contractict or conflict with anything from the earlier games, it simply adds another element to the WC setting.

Now, I agree that if you just take the pilgrim story from the movie it also wouldn't have had much of a major effect if it was simply added as background information. But it isn't simply background info, we suddenly we have a major part of the plot focused on Blair's mother being a pilgrim and on pilgrims being discriminated against. And that's not the only change, we also have changes to the ships and techology and to the other main characters. When you take all the changes in the movie you don't simply have "additions" to the original setting, you have a new setting entirely. That's the difference between the games, which added material to the WC setting, and the movie, which totally replaced established material.

It's not surprising that we didn't hear much about them? Remember escorting relief supplies to the Dakota System -- part of the Border Worlds, says Prophecy. Defending the Behemoth at Torgo... part of the Border Worlds. Deneb, the focus of so many conversations in SO2? Border Worlds. Epsilon Prime, referenced several times as a site of battles in the original Wing Commander? Border Worlds.

Now, compare all the things in Wing Commander to the movie equivalent: during how many conversations in the games did Blair mention his mother?

If you can add the Border Worlds on the basis that - to quote you - "doesn't contractict or conflict with anything from the earlier games", then why can't you add a background for Blair? ('s mom). This is the Blair who went for half a decade without even having a name - and who certainly never recieved any contradictory backstory at all. Hell, he went for at least an entire game pretty much not talking at all.

Furthermore, I would argue that the people doing the character background for the movie did a hell of a lot more existing background research than the games did -- look at all the hundreds and hundreds of tiny references in the novelization. Did any of the games or guides *ever* remember that Maniac's dad was a commercial shuttle pilot (a brief reference in the WC1/2 Guide, researched for the movie) or that he had three brothers? How great is it that Blair actually reads Claw Marks in the novel, or that Maniac refers to Lt. Dibbles in the movie? The people resonpsible for the movie, the novel, the handbook did their homework to connect the material back to the 'rest' of Wing Commander.

 

[LeHah]

There's a big difference here. The movie didn't "expand" or "continue" the WC universe.

The fact you're arguing denotes otherwise. It obviously did both - much to your dismay; otherwise, we'd not be arguing, would we?

It redesigned the WC setting entirely with new ships, technology, and major changes to the plot and main characters.

Please name something in the movie that was redesigned that hadn't had multiple redesigns in the past (uniforms, Tiger Claw, Blair's hair color, etc)

Enterprise and the Star Wars prequils didn't "remake" their original series, they took place prior to the original series and added more background information to the setting.

The addition of midichlorians alone would render that thought moot, since it creates a "literal" aspect for a once metaphysical concept. The Enterprise episodes "Through A Glass, Darkly" episodes 1 and 2 also take a plot written in the 60s and finishes it with a plot written in 2005 by having the ship go through a time distortion of sorts. The fact that the prequel show finishes a story that was written in the past about the future should also show you that you're really, really wrong.

I really don't see how that applies here. Unless one of the WC forum rules is "thou shalt not criticize the WC movie" then I can't imagine any reason why the mods would have a problem with anything I've posted.

I'd go so far as saying its an 'unoffical' rule - as people that tend to stretch out this line of thought *do* get banned. Its not because of their beliefs, but the fact that 'you can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink' syndrome. There comes a point where its all for naught and someone gets banned. The reason it keeps happening over and over is because people get banned over and over. It's like a big recycling system or somesuch.

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm not making a valid argument.

Many people have tried before you and they've all failed for as long as I can remember (since the inception of this site, at least). Your arguement can't be valid if theres no logic presented in it; this is because you're fighting facts presented to you that are solid 'canon'.

If you're trying to suggest that having my own opinion is bothering people, then I'd sugget that those people either get used to it, or post in a different thread.

Petulence doesn't become you. And its exactly that type of crap that gets people mopping our floors.

The movie was loosely based on the original WC game

I don't see how. Please explain.

but there is no possible way the movie has had ANY impact on the games whatsoever since the last WC game (Prophecy) was released in 1997 and the WC movie was relaased in 1999.

And Star Wars was released in 1977 while The Phantom Menace was made in 1999. Your point being...

The movie also hasn't influenced any of the novels that were written based on the games, since everything from Freedom Flight to False Colors was written in 1999 or earlier.

But they don't trip up on facts either. Theres no glaring continuity problems. It should be said that since the novels are canonized, they (the screenwriters) had to take that into effect when writing the movie, to keep things in line. They did a great job of that, considering the number of tiny, minute facts and hints in the movie.

So if you're trying to suggest that the movie was somehow incorporated into the games you might want to think about that concept again, because it simply isn't possible.

And you're the final word on this because...

No, the later games do NOT change the timeline or information that was originally presented.

Sure, they do. If they didn't, we'd have bought a number of games that are exactly the same, just with a different title. But each game is different, hence things have changed, especially with the story.

The later games didn't replace or contradict anything from WC1

Nor did the movie.

But the movie DID replace several elements from WC1 by changing ships, technology, characters, and major plot elements.

What was changed that hasnt been changed previously? I'm not saying there isn't conflicting items in WC canon - look at the Tiger's Claw - but everything has been *explained* before you decided to walk in with this nonsensical shit-slinging.

Why do so many people have so much trouble understanding the difference between the movie, which actually changes the WC storyline, and the games, which simply continue the storyline without reinventing or changing it?

Because its been repeatedly proven that the movie is part of the game canon. Chris Roberts - the series creator and movie director - has blatantly stated such. Anything you say about that is moot. What Chris says, goes. Too bad for you.

 

[X_FIREFALCON]

*reads through the forum thread* Wow...heck of a discussion.

I, like LOAF and many of the others here, like tying the movie into the whole Wing Commander Universe. While it's true that it has its slight quirks or incongruencies that can, will, and (most importantly) have been argued by some time and time again, the fact remains that the movie too was Chris Roberts' baby, and if we want to believe that the rest of his compilation of material is authentically biblically "Wing Commander," we'd (by sheer default) have to accept the same for his movie.

Now this brings up two problems. The first and most obvious thing that needs to be considered is we're talking about introducing a movie that started it all in a series fans (many of which are even more fanatical than me!) have kept up with for years. As someone else above mentioned, this is the problem that creeped up with George Lucas' Star Wars prequels. The trouble here is that so much has been built on, that every time you try to add to the beginning story, you run the risk of creating ripples in the story elsewhere. In the case of the Wing Commander movie, I agree with some of what you're saying, Devari. The whole accent thing threw me for a loop. In the movie, it seemed like Deveraux didn't have a discernable accent period (which is ok...I'm clueless when it comes to those French expressions from the game anyway!), and in one part, Taggart says a French line (which I just chalked up as being some cool thing...kinda like when Schwartzenegger said "hasta la vista" in T2). There's other subtleties...from the game, you almost got the feeling that Blair and Marshall weren't close until Wing Commander 3 (and maybe just a little bit towards the end of the additions to WC2)...and yes, everyone's appearance kinda changed from the ole cartoon characters we were used to from the earlier games.

But when you looked at all the personal interactions in the movie and the whole spirit of the thing...personally, I don't feel there's any way you could look at it and say that it's not Wing Commander or could not be kind of a story that was the earliest background history of many of the characters. Sure, there's a few subtle things that trip up, but I still think the continuity on the grand scale survives. The movie revamped things just a tad...they didn't come up with a completely different concept - they added a few embellishes here to make for a more exciting story. I, for one, like the idea of Pilgrims...it was kind of like Wing Commander's version of the Star Wars Force for me.

The other problem that exists here in Wing Commander is this point - you have to consider that Chris Roberts didn't sit down a decade and a half ago and come up with this epic saga that would span everything from the movie through Wing Commanders 1-4, then Prophecy, all the while encompassing all those Wing Commander cartoon shows, Privateer 1 & 2, yadda-yadda. Wing Commander seemed like it started out as a simple idea to create a space fighter simulator game. And then they built on it as they went.

So in the end, it became something more than it started out as, and maybe a few ideas bounce off some of the other implications we felt were established before...

But I still think when you look at all the stories combined and look past all the little things we'd just LOVE to nitpick...that you have amassed one of the greatest collection of stories ever that center around a few characters that a fan could write a concise history about.

As for the original topic at hand...I don't think anyone has a definitive answer as to how physically large Confederation and Kilrathi Space are. I always imagined Jumps were kind of linear...systems adjacent to one another. Otherwise, what about all that blank space in-between them?

And as for LOAF's picture...wow, I would never question the authenticity of anything LOAF says. But man, that picture just rocks my world. That's explored space? It looks like there's a galaxy (spiral cloud) whose center is at the center of the "map." But I thought Nephilim space was unexplored and on the other side of the galaxy? Wow...my brain's going to explode trying to comprehend this one!

Anyway, just wanted to contribute my 2 cents.

- FireFalcon ~};^

 

[Paddybhoy]

So nobody thought that the presence of Skipper missles was just a bit wrong? From that one tiny part of the movie (which i still think is great) so many contradictions arose, and for your pleasure I shall list them

1.Its cloaking technology, when Blair was accused of treason over the loss of the Tigers Claw his defence was that it was attacked by stealth fighters, a defence that was guffawed at by Tolwyn.

2.In WC3 when Eisen briefs Blair about the skipper missle he explains its function as if Blair had never encountered it before, which in my belief he hadn't because Eisen refers to it as 'a new kind of missle' that the cats were testing (so none of that it was a new kind of skipper missle crap that some people have used thank you please!)

3.In the Wing Commander Movie Angel also describes the skipper and from her tone and dialogue she seems to be fairly well aquainted with them, so HOW in the name of god did nobody in confed think that the cats might maybe use the cloaking sytem on a fighter!!


In summation the Skipper Missle was simply an added feature to pimp up the storyline of an awesome movie that in my opinion can't be considered canon

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I disagree -- the existence of a technology is not the same thing as the ability to apply a technology.

NASA has an unmanned Mach 10 scramjet testbed -- but no one expects the Air Force to have Mach 10 fighters any time soon.

Clearly - because it decloaks to lock - the issue with the Skipper missile is that it can't 'see out' of its cloaking field (the handbook says as much) -- the same technology applied to a fighter would be patently useless... although, as actually happens, were that hurdle breached it would be an amazing weapon.

 

[Paddybhoy]

So why do the skipper missle have to track in and out of cloak in WC3? when cloaked fighters seem able to do? (albeit it without guns and missles)

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Why do I drive a car that goes 80 miles per hour when there are rockets and superjets and all kinds of crazy things out there?

We know Strakha are incredibly, incredibly rare -- presumably the sophisticated technology behind them isn't being thrown away on missiles in 2669.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

And as for LOAF's picture...wow, I would never question the authenticity of anything LOAF says. But man, that picture just rocks my world. That's explored space? It looks like there's a galaxy (spiral cloud) whose center is at the center of the "map." But I thought Nephilim space was unexplored and on the other side of the galaxy? Wow...my brain's going to explode trying to comprehend this one!

Nephilim space is unexplored and on the other side of the galaxy - that picture is the area of the (our) galaxy which the Confederation has charged. It's one of the sidebars on the Wing Commander Universe Map packaged with Wing Commander Prophecy.

 

[Devari]

First point, it seems that some people here still don't understand what I'm saying. I'm going to try explaining this one last time. WC1 was set in 2654, WC2 was around 2664-2668, Privateer was in 2669, WC3 was in 2669, WC4 was in the 2670's, and Prophecy was in the 2680's. So each installment CONTINUED the original WC series. The later games ADDED more information by continuing the series, they didn't REPLACE the earlier games.

Now, take the movie. It was set in 2654, the SAME YEAR as the WC1 game. Technically, you could claim it was "background" for the WC1 game since it occurred slightly earlier. But there is only a very short amount of time - less than a year - between the WC movie and WC1. You can try explaining certain inconsitencies, such as the Rapier, by saying it was an older fighter that was suddenly replaced later in 2654. This explanation doesn't actually work very well because the WC bible specifically refers to the F-44A from WC1 as the "Rapier" and the F-44G from WC2 as the "Rapier II". But even if you accept the convoluted Rapier story, that type of explanation gets ridiculous when you look at the number of changes you'd have to explain. Is anyone seriously trying to claim that the Tiger's Claw, Broadswords, Dralthi, Skipper missiles, Confed and Kilrathi capital ship designs, and the nature of jump travel all changed suddenly between the WC movie and WC1? There's simply no way all those ships and technology could be completely redesigned and replaced in less than a year. That's the main problem I have with the movie. It REPLACES the WC1 ships and technlogy with totally new designs and provides no concieveable explanation of how all of these changes could possibly fit in with the rest of the WC setting.

Secondly, regarding the idea that has been mentioned repeatedly that I might get banned for criticising the WC movie. Are you fucking kidding me? If any of the mods want to ban me for disagreeing with people, go right ahead. I seriously don't care one way or another. If the general attitude on these boards is "if you don't agree with us, we're going to ban you" then why would I want to post here in the first place? At any rate, I really don't see the point in continuing the WC movie dicussion because it's going around in circles and it's clear that certain people will vehemently attack anything I post simply because I don't agree with them. But if anyone has anything to add to the original topic about the size of the Confederation/Kilrathi territories, please do so.

 

[Paddybhoy]

We know Strakha are incredibly, incredibly rare -- presumably the sophisticated technology behind them isn't being thrown away on missiles in 2669

And yet in the space of a few short years a lone Border World mechanic called pliers manages to build his own....god I love logic (aren't Strakha mass produced also)