Requesting correct Model-Credits

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Starman©

Spaceman
To the Reckoning-Team :

Hello,

I have a problem with your newest release, namely this ship here.

reckoning13a.jpg


Though I have the intention of settling this in a peaceful way, I try to make it short and stay polite .

This Carrier-Model is build and textured by the WC-Saga Team (Mostly Lynx, Tolwyn and myself). In case that you request any proofs (but I'm sure you know it as good as I do), you can go to this thread, open page 7 and 8, there are our picture of it's first release and I can make you tons of screenshots showing the original mesh-file if necessary :

http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?t=7863&page=7&pp=50

As you know for sure, it is not a sign of good behaviour in claiming other people's work for your own (escpecially not if you not even make yourself the work retexturing it :mad: ) We have spent a huge amount of work into this model (more than 40 hours), and seeing it now being used and claimed by other people makes us going up the wall.

You can believe me, that I'm writing this with the knowledge of my other team-mates (who will be linked over here), and I'm writing this in their names as well. I can also assure you, that we had a few much more harder posts about this "release" than the one you are actually reading here.

I understand that you certainly got your hand on some of our models as long as Tolwyn was part of your project, and it wouldn't be a too big problem at all, but only if you give correct credits for the models. (Even if this model is outdated, we already replaced it with a highpoly-version)

On the other hand, in case you have any more suprises in the backhand (like some yet unreleased model i.e.) , with Tolwyn leaving your project, you automatically lost the right of using these models without our permission

So, to conclude this, you guys get the point I was talking about. If you want to use our models, you will ask us in the future (you can PM me or Tolwyn about these things, and we will discuss it). After all, we are all trying to keep the community alive, but certainly not by stealing other mod's work. Technically we don't have a problem when you use older models from us, as long as you ask and as long us you give the right credits for the model and texturing.

So, if you haven't done it already, make sure you change your credits according to this. I hope that this is the last time we saw something like this (because it wasn't the first time AFAIK)

Regards

Starman©


P.S. On a side-note, the ranger has the Conning-Tower on the left, you actually claiming our concordia-class model as a ranger-class. If you keep using it, mirror it at least !
 

gevatter Lars

Vice Admiral
I agree...its to much work to get these things running to see that others just take your work without even asking or at least give some credits...please correct this.
 

MamiyaOtaru

Spaceman
*If* Tolwyn was on their team and gave them a model, he gave his permission then. Do they need to get permission a second time? Credit is due regardless.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Don't you people have something better to do than be passive-aggressive about artwork that is in no way original to your respective projects? None of you designed these ships.

The Reckoning people should feel bad that they forgot to credit you and you should feel even worse that your reaction was an angry letter full of highlighting and bolding. I bet "Hey, you guys forgot to credit me" would have worked just as well.

P.S. On a side-note, the ranger has the Conning-Tower on the left, you actually claiming our concordia-class model as a ranger-class. If you keep using it, mirror it at least !

They *both* have the conning tower on the same side. The "Ranger on the left, Concordia on the right" is nonsense. The conning towers are on the same side on both ships -- some mod person decided it was easier to make up a stupid explanation about how that's how it 'should' be instead of fixing their own error.
 

hellcatv

Swabbie
Banned
amen LOAF :)

Everyone here is interested in people getting recognized for what they have done--yet we're all also interested in spending time adding to those things rather than asking a dozen people for permission to get a single model (rather than just a single person repsonsible for the mod)

to mark this momentous occasion that will herald a new era of forum respect and good will I have created a rhyme:

Credit given where credit due,
yet don't people have better things to do
than scream and yell at me and you!
 

Maj.Striker

Swabbie
Banned
Got to agree with Loaf on this one completely...you started a thread for this???! Wouldn't a simple email sufficed? Its not like this is your own original creation...good thing for you the original creators of the WC models didn't show up and start a thread about how you failed to give them specific (wow, I can bold something too...I must be really professional) credit for each and every model you created. Get over yourselves. I understand you want credit, and rightfully so but surely there's got to be a better way to go about it then a big post of "Look at me, we did it, they're intentionally ripping us off!!!" I'm sure it was an innocent mistake.
 
S

scheherazade0xf

Guest
eh', this subject irks me.

// start IN GENERAL
i've created various fighters for the Fleet Action mod posted them to the WCMDF.
i dont take credit for the design, but i do take credit for that particular iteration.
the 3d model file didn't come out of nowhere, so i'd like to get credit for the _file_ whenever it's used.

so far the models have shown up all over, mostly without credit. which i'm ok with, since it's not my design.

that really gets me, is when someone takes the model or skin, and makes some minor change (like recolouring the stripes, or running a photoshop effect over the texture), and then signs himself as the author of that file.

it's rediculous, and shameful.
its one thing to not credit, and it's another to misrepresent yourself as the author.
// end IN GENERAL


// rest is SAGA RELATED
a good few of the saga models are hacks of the ones i made.
my name isn't anywhere.

i haven't brought it up publicly because _I_LIKE_TOLWYN_. from whatever i've talked to him over forums and icq, he's a nice guy. so i dont care if he just doesn't credit me. *i know he knows* i made some of the files he has, and as far as i can tell, he intends to credit everyone when the time comes.

but

starman, you speak for your mod.
if you're gonna get riled up over credits, then try to audit your own.
you're getting mad because someone has done to you, what /your team/ has done to me. it would be *selfish* to be ok doing it to others, but not ok when it's done to you. be fair. let it go.
what you should have done is ask their team to credit you when they have their release.
your post is basically bringing the smack down on the reckoning team, because they used a model made/edited by you, without crediting you, in their in-progress mod.
now
you used a model(s) made/edited by me, without crediting me, in your in-progress mod.
if you're not gonna be civil, wait for credit when it's due, and wanna bring the smack down now, then you're long overdue for a smackdown yourself.

my personal suggestion : get the 'f' off the reckoning team's back.
and get some perspective along the way.

i really don't care if you never credit me. (no, really, go right ahead and don't, it's ok)
what i do care about is you hounding other people for credits, given the status quo. your post fills my head with imagery of an elementary school bully that picks on others, but runs to the teacher whenever anyone reciprocates.

-scheherazade
 

Tolwyn

Vice Admiral
you have no idea what you are talking about. Everyone's work will be credited in the mods documentation, when it will come out (in some cases, however, model's origin is unknown). I may be wrong, but as far as I recall it was not released yet. Website, however, is outdated, we have more important work to do. Look at my wallpapers: credits is given where it is due. If something is not correct there or on my WC3D website, feel free to contact me.

Secondly, I have no problems if our models are used in other projects, as long as people create new textures for them. This is how our cooperation with Standoff works. It is much better if the game has a defined texturre style and does not represents a mix of three or four different mods.

Also, if Reckoning feels to trade models with your project, again, it is fully ok, as long as they ask us. A lot of models Reckoning uses were done by you, but the skin belongs to WCSaga. Btw, I can't remember seeing any Standoff models on WC3D...

Last, since we will redo the concordia anyway, I guess you can become happy with it, but at least you should declare who made the model.
 

Chicken

Spaceman
Yep. This brings another concern when it comes to using other mod's models. I would like to use WC Saga's models in some future projects for Homeworld 2, but as far I'll go is to somewhat modify the models so they'll work in Maya or 3ds max and make my own textures, or if necessary, actually ask for help. But as far as I'm concerned, you (the WC Saga guys) are responsible for these great ship models. My reason for using pre-poduced models is because I can't model any decent vessels worth shit. I know how to get objects moving, turning, and fuctioning, but creating decent models isn't my best strength. Texturing, on the otherhand, is something I'm learning so I look forward to designing ship textures.
 

Tolwyn

Vice Admiral
Chicken, Im glad we see it the same. Again, I want to make this clear: I have no problems if our models are used in other mods. Hell, we are using 3d party models either. But on the other hand, there are certain restrictions, which Starman has pointed out.
 

Starman©

Spaceman
Normally you people are right, if it would go for just a "pls give us the correct credit", I would certainly have wrote an email, that would be more than enough. If the bold and underlined do mean someting like "screaming" or similar, I'm sorry, this wasn't my intention (I just did it to mark the important thoughts in my post, and if my tone was too hard, it was certainly because of my emotion, but still I stand to the reason and the meaning of this post.)

But the reason why I created a whole new thread for this matter is simple. This isn't the first time that this sort of thing happens, and the main-reason was that we were all suprised by seeing one of our original models, which we haven't released in any way (besides some screenshots) suddenly appeared unaltered for puplic use.

This is what buggers us so much, since it happened without any permission, and there hasn't been any approach in asking us (since we already rebuild the model, we would have possibly allowed it, and would have simply asked for giving us the right credit. After we will have released, our models will spread in the internet in any case, we cannot prevent that at all. But at this point of development we will try at least). For the moment, all we ask for is that models we haven't released yet, and are used by others, are given the credit for their creator, and that we are being asked in the future, if it is o.K. to use our models. I'm pretty sure that this isn't too much to ask for. The same way we cooperate with standoff, and we wouldn't mind doing it with others too.

About the credits itself, you all claiming that we didn't designed those models. That's right, all these designs are created by origin (which is stated in our credits btw), but THAT has nothing to do with this issue here.

Here it goes about the 3D-model itself, and none of that is ripped from the original game, they are all made by us from the start. If not, we mentioned that in the credits. The creator deserves that he will be mentioned, this is the normal way of things in any other modding-places too (and just to make that clear, the creator isn't me the most time, but I also don't want to see my team-mates getting ignored for their work).

@scheherazade :

While I at least tried not to make it too personal (english isn't my native language, so some lines above and in the first post may be sound a little too bad), there was definitly no reason for your unqualified and insulting reply. I don't know you personally, but let me say you one thing.

I'm very eager in giving everyone (including you) the propper credit when we release (what we haven't yet, as Tolwyn already stated, and what is the reason for this entire thread at all). I remember reading your name a few times, when we showed off pictures of older models in fleet-tactics. But when you now have the feeling, that you are missing credits, that is simply because we replaced most of the previous models by our own.

If something will remain from you in the release, I assure that we will clarify this. But we haven't worked so hard the past two years just to see that our work is getting copied by other people. And neither you, nor anyone else will change my
mind into this.

Starman©
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Here it goes about the 3D-model itself, and none of that is ripped from the original game, they are all made by us from the start. If not, we mentioned that in the credits. The creator deserves that he will be mentioned, this is the normal way of things in any other modding-places too (and just to make that clear, the creator isn't me the most time, but I also don't want to see my team-mates getting ignored for their work).

The fact that the conning tower is reversed suggests otherwise -- the error comes from the fact that the Wing 3/4 engine stores its models as mirror images... some idiot copied the model directly from the ripped source without remembering to flip it properly.

Regardless -- do you have any idea how this looks to the average reader? Childish and inane, like you were searching for one tiny thing to complain about when someone elses mod was released. Posting it in public (and with an oh-so-indignant tone) makes everyone thing you're just looking for attention for your project. I'm not saying that that was your goal, but that's how it looks to the dozens and dozens of readers who just inhereted whatever your beef with Bob McDob is.

And here's a unilateral decision for the Wing Commander community: we don't care how 'other modding places' credit things. We're a smarter community.
If you want to fight over it, fine -- that's your right. But you're not going to look good doing it in public. We care about crediting the people who designed the original ship for their *creative* work -- further copies are *technical* work. Technical work should be credited, but battling over who made a ship that isn't an original design won't win you support among the masses.
 

BradMick

Vice Admiral
all i gotta say is this deal is BS.

this letter would be like me saying 'okay, i've decided to create my own privateer remake, so....gues what WCU...you're shit out of luck because you can no longer use my models, and for that matter, neither can anyone else. damn the work you've done, i don't care.'

obviously if warzog got the models from tolwyn, there was permission given. If Warzog or whoever was a little slow in updating the credits page, it happens. don't go jumping down some guys throat. last i checked this is a community, share and share alike. this stingy hoarding BS is just...well, that BS. that's where i stan on this matter. kind of an ass hole thing to pull. Personally, i don't really care if someone tries to pawn my work as their own. It's whatever. I know the truth, as do all the other people around here. petty, just...rediculously petty to say 'well, since tolwyn isn't working with you anymore, give em back' thats just dumb. relax, and next time just be like 'hey warzog (or whoever) please update your credits doc with these folks, thanks' instead of comin out with both barrels.

Brad Mick
 

Starman©

Spaceman
Tolwyn said:
you know, I always presumed that artists want proper credit for all uses of their work

I was thinking the same way. But if you guys see this a different way (i.e how credits should be handeled ), I have no interest in doing any fighting with you, nor do I want to damage our mods reputation (or the reputation of reckoning itself), but I will take that into account for future model-exchanges.

Maybe I used a bad tone because of my emotions, therefore I apologize.
(Actually I only tried to make good grammar to prevent misunderstandings, same goes for "oh-so-indignant tone", that wasn't my intention in the first place). But I'm sick of seeing our models used in other places (not only here) without any notice, which was the intention for me writing this.

Because I don't want this developing into a big flaming tread, I save me further comments about some of the replies. You can close or delete this thread if you wish.
 

Tolwyn

Vice Admiral
Starman© said:
Because I don't want this developing into a big flaming tread, I save me further comments about some of the replies. You can close or delete this thread if you wish.

I would close it, if I would still have my moderator rights. I am quite sure, I had 'em before.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I was thinking the same way. But if you guys see this a different way (i.e how credits should be handeled ), I have no interest in doing any fighting with you, nor do I want to damage our mods reputation (or the reputation of reckoning itself), but I will take that into account for future model-exchanges.

For the love of -- listen to yourself: I don't want to fight -- but if you won't agree with me, I'll take away my toys!

Stop posting to this mod's forum -- you've somehow turned what should have been a polite e-mail request into a horrible PR mess for your entire project.

I would close it, if I would still have my moderator rights. I am quite sure, I had 'em before.

You have moderator rights at the Saga board, not the Reckoning board. The only thing the two projects have in common is a broken Concordia model.

Closing the thread is up to the Freelancer mod guys -- the ones you people attacked in the first place. (After all, they have yet to even comment on this mess.)
 
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