Protester Arrested

Re: To war, or not to war?

Originally posted by redwolf
And really, from a Western perspective, why should we get rid of Saddam? What finally tilted my opinion against war was the footage I saw of an Arabian conference held recently where the Iraqi and Kuwaiti foreign ministers insulted each other. I was shocked to discover the only one wearing a suit was the Iraqi representative! The only person who was in Western 'dress' was the Iraqi!

To me it would seem that Iraq is more likely to be Westernised and thus rendered pacifist than any other Arab country. It follows that they would be more likely to embrace the freedoms that we in the West take for granted.

Snazzy suits do NOT mean someone is nice. Snazzy suits mean they have a decked out wardrobe. On the topic of snazzy suits, anyone know what notorious political party actualy had movie costume artists design it's uniforms? Anyone?

I think this is really the United States, or more likely, the hawks in President Bush' cabinet trying to clean up their own mess. Many were around during Bush Senior's and Reagan's administrations and now wish to either cover up their involvement or support for Iraq. It should be noted that prior to the invasion of Kuwait in 1990, Iraqi oifficials asked for permission from the US. Surprise, surprise, tacit permission WAS given.

Given the ammount of shit I've heard come out of the press, and even professors, I'd like to see some proof. And not just a heresay article.
 
Re: Re: To war, or not to war?

Originally posted by t.c.cgi
Snazzy suits do NOT mean someone is nice. Snazzy suits mean they have a decked out wardrobe. On the topic of snazzy suits, anyone know what notorious political party actualy had movie costume artists design it's uniforms? Anyone?

I'm gonna take a wild stab at this and say the Klu Klux Klan. But what I really wanted to say is that Khallah Shiak Muhummed would dress snazzy. He was a real prince wasn't he?
 
Re: Re: Re: To war, or not to war?

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka
I'm gonna take a wild stab at this and say the Klu Klux Klan.

Thats more like cheep redneck: go in the bedroom, grab a sheet, cut a hole in it for your head, and grab a dunce cap from the local school. And KKK isn't realy a political group AFAIK.

The group I'm refering to actualy was elected to power in a country. It also violated weapons restrictions, invaded neighboring countries, and all the while France played the appeasement game just as it is doing now. Care to take another guess?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: To war, or not to war?

Also it's so sad that history has such a bad habbit of repeating itself, and that no one ever notices it.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: To war, or not to war?

Originally posted by t.c.cgi
and all the while France played the appeasement game just as it is doing now.

ap·pease·ment ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-pzmnt)
n.

1. An act of appeasing.
The condition of being appeased.

2. The policy of granting concessions to potential enemies to maintain peace.

What, exactly, are the concessions France has been granting to Iraq? Appeasement, as a policy involves real concessions. Before the Second World War there are big things you can look at and say that Britain and France were effectively paying Germany off to avoid war. They stood by while Germany openly denounced the disarmament clauses in the Treaty of Versailles in 1935 and began to openly rearm. They allowed Germany to, once again openly, restore forces in the Rhineland, against the Treaty of Versailles. They allowed Germany to annex Austria, also very much contrary to the Treaties of Versaille and St. Germaine. They then went and gave Germany the Sudatenland... which was quite nice of them, considering it wasn't their territory and Czechoslovakia was one of their treaty partners.

In comparison, France has agreed that inspecting Iraq is a good idea! Those appeasing bastards! France has neither supported Iraq's right to have restricted weapons, nor has it ignored the problem. Being against war is not the same as appeasement.
 
Re: Re: To war, or not to war?

Originally posted by Aries
your right, Bin Laden and Saddam are opposites. but just remember, The enemy of my enemy is my friend
I can't resist pointing out that you've just declared that either Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein is your friend :).
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: To war, or not to war?

Originally posted by t.c.cgi
The group I'm refering to actualy was elected to power in a country. It also violated weapons restrictions, invaded neighboring countries, and all the while France played the appeasement game just as it is doing now. Care to take another guess?

When you said the uniforms were from Hollywood I guessed it would be something home grown, so...Nazis? Elected to power by a country, invaded neighbouring countries while France watched. I'm not so sure about the violation of weapons restrictions, but I'll take it for granted they did.
 
Quarto...you do such justice with that comment! I would love to see Aries' face after reading that :D


North Korea's time will come. after all, why jump from one mess to another when the first hasn't been fixed, and has been going on longer

By the way Aries, Afghanistan hasn't been fixed, in fact its no where near fixed. Kabul is the only place under government control there, with the warlords still at large. Even government control over Kabul is uncertain. So shouldn't the US figure out the Afghani problem, or should it just let the Iraqis face the same lawlessness that they currently face in Afghanistan.


Also I am going to play the devil's advocate and ask for peoples' thoughts on giving the Iraqis democracy. Should the US introduce democracy to Iraq, and supposing an elected Iraqi government were to shun the US and not sell oil on American terms or submit to US foreign policy, would that be a reason to invade them, again?
 
Re: Re: Re: To war, or not to war?

Originally posted by Quarto
I can't resist pointing out that you've just declared that either Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein is your friend :).
\

Haha, good one. He had a nice piece of logic there.
 
nice one Quarto, but one simple flaw. how could one of them be my friend when i'm enemies with both?

Originally posted by redwolf
By the way Aries, Afghanistan hasn't been fixed, in fact its no where near fixed. Kabul is the only place under government control there, with the warlords still at large. Even government control over Kabul is uncertain. So shouldn't the US figure out the Afghani problem, or should it just let the Iraqis face the same lawlessness that they currently face in Afghanistan.

well, the iraq mess precedes Afghanistan, cause the iraq mess started in 91, afghanistan in 01. personally, i say let the UN take care of Afghanistan. i doubt even they could fuck it up, course it would take 50 years for them to get it done. we did what we set out to do, kick the shit out of the taliban and Al Qaeda.

Also I am going to play the devil's advocate and ask for peoples' thoughts on giving the Iraqis democracy. Should the US introduce democracy to Iraq, and supposing an elected Iraqi government were to shun the US and not sell oil on American terms or submit to US foreign policy, would that be a reason to invade them, again?

they want to turn their back on the US, fine, good riddence. it would save the taxpayers money. long as they don't fuck with us, we wouldn't have to invade
 
T.C.: Good point. I'll remove that from my list of points in further debate.

Phillip Tanaka: Correct. And yes, they did break a weapons restriction, quite a few. They basicaly weren't allowed to build any new military equipment and had to keep the size of their military below a certain ammount of personnel. They violated both.

Aries: If you want to use dates of previously failed military action/assistance, I think Afghanistan preceeds it since the problems there go back to at least around 1979 when the Soviets invaded and then we send military aide (think stingers and other weapons). Our lack of support and aide in the aftermath caused fighting amongst the warlords, and eventualy the Taliban took over. I agree Afghanistan should at least get our continued help until their country becomes stable.

Even so, the crap in N. Korea could probably be said to go back further than either Iraq or Afghanistan. Remember we failed to oust the Communist (or whatever it was) gov't there in the late 40's and early 50's. It seems that when we go about things half assedly and don't finish what is started, it comes back to bite us in the ass, doesn't it?
 
We will NOT do anything to N. Korea for the following reasons:
1. WE have nothing to gain, no more oil increases like with iraq, no more "we beat up a bunch of rag heads" from bush, bush gains nothing.

2. They are like pakistan and india, we cannot prevent proliferation once they have the nukes and can strike our allies and our selves.

3. If we attack N. Korea the ROK and Japan will be turned into glow in the dark parkinglots and the US economy would take a MAJOR hit losing these two essential trading partners.

4. They soon will be able to retaliate against the US proper, something we would not like.

Basically the message, of this entire mess that George W has gotten us into, for all countries the US doesnt like is to get nukes and get nukes fast. If they get nukes they can retaliate in such a way that shrubo will not risk it. Why do you think Iran activated its heavy water reactor a few months ago, they saw the writing on the wall, that if they wish to not be the US's butt buddies and actually have self rule and be able to act freely in their own country, they need nukes.

Likewise look at who we are allied with in the middle east and who we want to attack. Iraq is by far the best country in the M. east in the way it treats women, women have the same rights as men, serve in the government, drive, etc. they are the same as men in iraq. In saudi arabia one of our closer allies in the M. East women arent allowed to leave the house without male guard, they cannot be doctors, they cannot be educated, they must be vieled at all times, they cannot drive. Iran (who we obviously dont like, being called part of the axis of evil) is the most democratic of all M. eastern governments other than israel, and infact could be viewed as more so in the fact that it doesnt have legalized apartheid.
 
Ah, you're back. Good. There's something that I need you to do. You said that soldiers want to commit war crimes, in fact your exact words were that soldiers "want to be able to rape, murder, steal, genocide, and commit warcrimes up the wazoo without being held accountable." Any way you can back this up?
 
What all this has to do with the protester arrested? Why not transfer all this off topic material to the other 2 or 3 threads about it?
 
Didn't think of it at the time is all. Was thinking what's he on about soldiers wanting "to be able to rape, murder, steal, genocide, and commit warcrimes up the wazoo without being held accountable" and thought here's as good a place as any.
 
The trouble with all this off-topic material is that it all in some ways relates back to the original thread topic... in this case, the protester was wearing an anti-war shirt, so a discussion of the war was almost inevitable.

I'd merge all the war threads into one, but then things would be even more confusing. The thread would die, and five more war threads would spring up in its place :p.
 
People have been discussing this war for far more time than it will probably take for it to be fought.
 
Originally posted by Napoleon
We will NOT do anything to N. Korea for the following reasons:
1. WE have nothing to gain, no more oil increases like with iraq, no more "we beat up a bunch of rag heads" from bush, bush gains nothing.

nothing other than the peace of mind that a hostile country wouldn't be able to hit us after we took out the threat

2. They are like pakistan and india, we cannot prevent proliferation once they have the nukes and can strike our allies and our selves.

if we can't stop it, we could at least set them back a couple years. remember, the best defense is a good offense

3. If we attack N. Korea the ROK and Japan will be turned into glow in the dark parkinglots and the US economy would take a MAJOR hit losing these two essential trading partners.

IF the N. Koreans want their country turned into glowing green glass for the next 35 years

4. They soon will be able to retaliate against the US proper, something we would not like.

all the more reason to hit em now before they can be able to hit us on US soil

Basically the message, of this entire mess that George W has gotten us into, for all countries the US doesnt like is to get nukes and get nukes fast. If they get nukes they can retaliate in such a way that shrubo will not risk it. Why do you think Iran activated its heavy water reactor a few months ago, they saw the writing on the wall, that if they wish to not be the US's butt buddies and actually have self rule and be able to act freely in their own country, they need nukes.

quite blaming bush for everything that goes wrong in the world. the fuse for all this shit got lit long before bush got into office. he just happened to be in office when the bang happened

Likewise look at who we are allied with in the middle east and who we want to attack. Iraq is by far the best country in the M. east in the way it treats women, women have the same rights as men, serve in the government, drive, etc. they are the same as men in iraq.

yeah, then they use chemical weapons on em when the gov doesn't like em

In saudi arabia one of our closer allies in the M. East women arent allowed to leave the house without male guard, they cannot be doctors, they cannot be educated, they must be vieled at all times, they cannot drive. Iran (who we obviously dont like, being called part of the axis of evil) is the most democratic of all M. eastern governments other than israel, and infact could be viewed as more so in the fact that it doesnt have legalized apartheid.

and both Iraq and Iran don't really like us. in case you didn't know, the way a gov treats it's citizens isn't the basis for an alliance. so Saudi Arabia treats it women like shit. that doesn't mean we're gonna go attack em. their gov is friendly with our gov, hence we are allies. in regards to Iraq and Iran, it doesn't matter how they treat women or how democratic their gov is. their govs ain't friendly to our gov, so we ain't gonna be friendly to them
 
Originally posted by Aries
and both Iraq and Iran don't really like us. in case you didn't know, the way a gov treats it's citizens isn't the basis for an alliance. so Saudi Arabia treats it women like shit. that doesn't mean we're gonna go attack em. their gov is friendly with our gov, hence we are allies. in regards to Iraq and Iran, it doesn't matter how they treat women or how democratic their gov is. their govs ain't friendly to our gov, so we ain't gonna be friendly to them

And that is very true for a lot of things.
 
1. WE have nothing to gain, no more oil increases like with iraq, no more "we beat up a bunch of rag heads" from bush, bush gains nothing.

Oh, please, play Junior Conspiracy Theorist somewhere else.

Can you seriously claim, with a straight face, that the United States has secretly set up this situation as a method to get *oil*? You seriously think that we'll spend billions of dollars on a war and subsequent reconstruction in order to be able to be in a position to *BUY OIL*? Why don't we just spend these billions of dollars to buy oil from the dozens of other countries that are happy to sell it do us? Oh, wait, *WE DO*. What's especially crazy, though, is that not only do you believe all this crap, but you also believe that the United States is both smart enough to create this huge elaborate, dare I say insane, conspiracy but also too stupid to hide it from hippies?

The world situation exists simply because everyone in the universe, with the exception of myself and whoever invented Combos(tm), are really really stupid. It's as simple as that.

2. They are like pakistan and india, we cannot prevent proliferation once they have the nukes and can strike our allies and our selves.

3. If we attack N. Korea the ROK and Japan will be turned into glow in the dark parkinglots and the US economy would take a MAJOR hit losing these two essential trading partners.

No, they won't, because the world doesn't work like the plot to a bad Command and Conquer addon (Red Alert 2: The Search for Yuri's Gold). If there were for some reason a war with North Korea (a 'Korean War'? Perish the thought!) then it would be a completely conventional war... because no country is stupid enough to alienate the rest of the world by using such weapons. Iraq had chemical weapons in 1991 -- why didn't they use them? Because they'd lose *all* their support in the world community in order to kill a bunch of Japanese people. The US and Russia, both countries with enourmous nuclear arsenals, fought dozens of wars in the last five decades... and lost several of them. Why not nuke somebody? Because it'd be stupid. Nuclear weapons exist today *solely* as a deterrent -- don't attack me, I have this. They will never be used in a tactical manner.

4. They soon will be able to retaliate against the US proper, something we would not like.

Oh contraire -- were North Korea able to build an ICBM... and so far this is not a serious possibility outside of scary newspaper headlines... then the government would be *happy* to see them attack the US. It would, once again, turn the world opinion against them and give the US a blank check for actions during the ensuing war. We *love* that sort of thing, to the point of practically inventing such situatiosn (North Vietnam fired at an American gunboat and didn't hurt anyone, eh? WAR!)

Basically the message, of this entire mess that George W has gotten us into, for all countries the US doesnt like is to get nukes and get nukes fast. If they get nukes they can retaliate in such a way that shrubo will not risk it. Why do you think Iran activated its heavy water reactor a few months ago, they saw the writing on the wall, that if they wish to not be the US's butt buddies and actually have self rule and be able to act freely in their own country, they need nukes.

Lots of dumb things are George Bush' fault. The entirety of the world situation, however, and the concept of nuclear detente is *not*. Go work on the moon landing thing.

Likewise look at who we are allied with in the middle east and who we want to attack. Iraq is by far the best country in the M. east in the way it treats women, women have the same rights as men, serve in the government, drive, etc. they are the same as men in iraq. In saudi arabia one of our closer allies in the M. East women arent allowed to leave the house without male guard, they cannot be doctors, they cannot be educated, they must be vieled at all times, they cannot drive. Iran (who we obviously dont like, being called part of the axis of evil) is the most democratic of all M. eastern governments other than israel, and infact could be viewed as more so in the fact that it doesnt have legalized apartheid.

Being allied with a country is not and has *NEVER BEEN* an endoresement of their actions. We allied ourselves with Saudi Arabia because we want to move large amounts of soldiers through their territory, not because we want to celebrate how horrible they are to women. We allied ourselves with Russia because Germany was at war with both of us, not because we loved communism.
 
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