Phase shields, need a number.

Well, 100 cm is the minimum needed for an object to be immune to fighter weapons. Those weapons capable of penetrating phase shields of that strength do so by bypassing the shields, not by tearing them down.

Regarding the shield/weapon upgrade cycles, what seems to happen is that, as more powerful weapons become available, shield power and frequency is increased. Shield frequency is the rate at which the ship's onboard computers can modulate its phase shields--this is important because unless the shields and weapons can be synchronized, all weapons fired by the ship would impact against the inside of its own shields.

Anyway, advances in computers make it possible to modulate a capship's phase shields faster than enemy torpedoes can handle, which results in said shields becoming impenetrable until the enemies can successfully make computers fast enough to match the modulation that are also small enough to be carried aboard torpedoes. Likewise, fighter computers must catch up with the modulation frequency of capships in order for fighter guns to damage capships. Then the cycle starts over again, with the development of computers to modulate the capship's phase shields even FASTER.

We see this cycle repeated at least twice in Wing Commander. At the time of Action Stations, capship shields are impenetrable, but then the Kilrathi create shield-penetrating torpedoes. By the time of WC1, all fighter weapons can penetrate capship shields, but in WC2, only torpedoes and capship-based guns can penetrate again. In WC3/4, the balance has swung the other way again, and all fighter guns and missiles can punch through capship shields, although the Vesuvius shows that the balance is swinging back since Blair must fly inside the hangar in order to destroy it. Finally, in WCP/SOP. only torpedoes and plasma guns are capable of destroying capships, although BuWeaps is probably working on getting around that...
 
Originally posted by Ijuin
although the Vesuvius shows that the balance is swinging back since Blair must fly inside the hangar in order to destroy it. Finally, in WCP/SOP. only torpedoes and plasma guns are capable of destroying capships, although BuWeaps is probably working on getting around that...
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Blair doesn't have to fly inside it. That is only requierd if he plans to use the flashpak. He can destroy it any other classical or creative way, like with star burts.

Why would the bugs do that? They have the tiamat... Besides, even a single stingray can damage capships.
 
Originally posted by Ijuin
Anyway, advances in computers make it possible to modulate a capship's phase shields faster than enemy torpedoes can handle, . . .
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I never thought the torpedoes had any phase shield processing equipment. If that were the case we could just launch torps at a max range and let it figure out the phase shields without any lock time. I believe the lock time is our computer figuring out he phase shields. Usually when you frequency modulate something, there is an algorithm that is present that gives a rhyme and reason (a pattern) to the frequency shifts. Take Bluetooth for example (where my present research is taking me). It works in a very dirty 2.4GHz ISM band frequency, but it avoids the interference by a technique called spread spectrum, frequency hopping. Basically you have 100MHz of bandwidth to work with and it only uses 1MHz at a time, changing the frequency it broadcsts at every 1/1600 of a second. Other Bluetooth devices can interpret this data because the "master" Bluetooth device tells the "slaves" what the freq. modulation algorithm is. I think our WC bomber-based computers use their sensors to bring in EM data while they crunch through until they find the phase-sheild algorithm. This is then fed to the torpedo, which has a simple EM frequency emitter that is now broadcasting the phase shield frequencies (no matter how often they change) thanks to the algorithm in its memory banks.


C-ya
 
Yeah, but comm tech hasn't advanced. It actually went way backwards. Why can't one ship ( scout ship, let's say) figure out a phase pattern of a capship, transmit the algorithm to every bomber in vicinity and get the hell out, while bombers drop their torpedoes without losing time to lock on?
Or why can't a ship use data from another ship to shorten lock time?
Or why the hell am I discussing this? :D
 
That, suffice to say, is because that would be practically impossible. The scout has to keep a lock on the capship while trying to dodge fighters... 'n stuff and...

uhh...

right
 
Yeah, but wasn't there a mention in the WC4 Novel about Sosa getting the phase-shield-patterns from a ship which they were going to board via marines?

If they could figure that out that far ahead of time, why can't they just program all the torpedoes with the phase-shield codes ahead of time?

That way they could just fly in on afterburners, toss all their torpedoes, and get the f*ck out while running top-speed away, and toast the carrier before they even knew what hit them...

-Concordia
"That's all Leftenant!"
 
Actually spread spectrum modulation techniques don't have to use algorithms. You can chose the frequency at random before hand and distribute the sequence to all interested parties.

So assuming Confed scientists aren't stupid, any modulation on their shields/weapons is infact impossible to break since each ship can independently chose a random frequency/phase at any instant in time since I'd imagine that the ships don't have to use the same modulation patterns.

Wireless devices use algorithms for their SS so that different manufacturers can make devices that can still communicate with each other.
 
Originally posted by steampunk
Actually spread spectrum modulation techniques don't have to use algorithms. You can chose the frequency at random before hand and distribute the sequence to all interested parties.

So assuming Confed scientists aren't stupid, any modulation on their shields/weapons is infact impossible to break since each ship can independently chose a random frequency/phase at any instant in time since I'd imagine that the ships don't have to use the same modulation patterns.

Wireless devices use algorithms for their SS so that different manufacturers can make devices that can still communicate with each other.
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Point 1, Did you just contradict yourself? Basically what you said is that they don't have a frequency sequence (or computer algorithm) that they share with thier slaves, then you go back and say that they distribute a sequence of predestined frequencies to allow them to communicate with each other. Also, it doesn't matter what they start at (any random number would do, as long as they synch before transmitting any data.

Point 2- Unless you have asome pee-on tripping a frequency shift dial somewhere in a ship, there will be a way to break it. Anything that is computerized is never random, even if you use a random number generator. You give me the algorithm that that number generator is using and I'll be able to tell you every number it will give at any point in time from here till the next century. So if the phase shields are controlled by such a device, all a fighters sensors would have to do is to detect what frequency shifts are present ans when, put it through a state-of-the-art computer systme and wala, instant phase sheild frequency prediction. Actually a part of your argument did give a reason why one couldn't get the code then just transmit it to the fleet. The frequency that you begin detecting on is random, but your information (previously acquired algorithm) doesn't have a starting point (kindof like giving you a road map from point A to point B but not telling you how to get to point A). Therefore each fighter would have to acquire a seperate lock to try and figure out the frequency modulating algorithm.

Point 3- Yes thats the premise of Bluetooth. The baseline argument is that you have to have an algorithm to transmit or your devices will never synch, thereby you never get any data.

C-ya
 
1) No I did not contradict myself. You randomly generate a sequence of freqencies. You then distribute this sequence before hand. Who said anything about an algorithm to generate the sequence and who says the sequence needs to be distributed just before communication? I could go out on the street and ask passers by to pick a number. There's your sequence. Then I schedule comms to take place a week from now at 8pm. If you pick up a cryptography book such a sequence is known as a one time pad and - should the distribution remain secure - is totally unbreakable.

2) Some intel chips generate random numbers through the use of a geiger counter and a a radioactive source on chip. Easy. Also even if we did use a random number generator how do you get the algorithm and the initial seed?
 
Doesn't have to be distributed just before communication, just has to be distributed before communication takes place.
If you randomly generated a set of frequencies for a loing enough period of time there would be a kindof 'key' that would emerge from analyzing the numbers. If you give me a string of 1000 numbers you randomly generated yourself, I could probably write a computer program that would probably guess your next numbers within about 75-80% accuracy, just due to the fact that human beings are accoustomed to thinking symmetrically, different people like certain numbers etc information I could gleam from your previous number picks.
Okay, you have a shield system that changes frequencies pretty damn fast, otherwise why the hell does it take so long for your onboard computer to defeat the countermeasures. This probably means that it is done by computer using some sort of random number generation. No matter what you are using for this generator, be it computer generated or naturally occurring, it has a base sequence that it follows (its algorithm). Your radioactive source can be modeled and predicted by todays computers (everything that is natural almost always breaks down into a Gaussian noise, be it its power distribution or other quality), much less ones that are almost a millenia into the future. And about the number generator algorithm and its initial seed. A wideband receiver could bring in the frequencies being transmitted by the phase shields ( I can only imagine how much power those things are putting out, so distinguishing the shield frequency against Thermal noise, etc probably wouldn't be that hard). These frequencies shift on a constant basis, giving the onboard computer program ample information to give its estimate on the future shield frequencies (I would hope after analyzing for 30 secs the sample would be large enough). AS for initial seed, you really don't need one. The initial seed for the algorithm you detect is the first frequency your onboard computer measured, building up its database from there. I also tend to hope that the shield frequency phase shifts are alittle more complicated than a one time pad due to the fact that they are running all the time and the frequency would have to generated as the ships shield system needed it.

C-ya
 
All this technical debate is fascinating, but we must remember that the shield "penetrability" changes from game to game because the designers want it to. It doesn't really follow some atual technological development. They just pick whatever is more fun, in their opinion...

Probably they didn't even think about oll this stuff back then.
 
And waht's about Massdriver and Stormfire shells? They shouldn't have any problem penetrating a phase shield, since they are just metal, but the game shows us otherwise. Explain this!:p
 
Being metal has nothing to do with penetrating phase shields, at all.

Normal missiles don't penetrate phase shields. Only weapons that can "phase in", so to speak.

So, some energy weapons and some missiles can do it. Torpedoes can because they "lock". Maces can because they are tac nukes. Very powerful energy weapons based on capships cal so penetrate shields.

On WCP, some special energy weapons, plasma guns, can penetrate shields. So can lg and hv torpedoes. But the other standard missiles can't.
 
Originally posted by Viper61
Doesn't have to be distributed just before communication, just has to be distributed before communication .......and the frequency would have to generated as the ships shield system needed it.
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If you want to nit pick on the inadequacy of humans to pick totally random numbers then sure, you can guess what the next number is.

Power will follow a Gaussian distribution. But IIRC, timing of radiation is indeed purely random as far as we can tell. You cannot at all predict when it is going to occur. There is however one radioactive source that is purely random should all else fail - cosmic radiation.

BTW one time pads are actaully the best way to encrypt anything if you can generate long strings of random bits and distribute the pad securely. As it follows no set algorithm (ideally) the only attack you can perform on it is brute force, but by the time you've cracked one code its already changed many many times. This is probably the most complicated way to encrypt something; coming up with a generator that outputs numbers with equal probability and then trying to distribute those numbers securely is exceedingly difficult (but this is WC so perhaps quantum encryption comes tothe rescue?). DES or AES by comparison is easy.
 
How about we agree to disagree on this point. I'm just searching for a reason why it takes so long to lock a torpedo and why this can't be done once and all successive locks were instantaneous. I thought I had a pretty good idea until you came along ;). And to answer the metal object question, I'm betting that phase shields have such a powerful EM field around them that metallic objects are rejected upon impact, only transferring the kinetic energy they had to the ships shields.

C-ya
 
How bout this:
Bomber locks on and fires torpedo.
Capitol Ship braces for impact.
Once Danger of imminant damage passes, a switch is flipped completly changing the code.
Ticked off Bomber pilot has to crack the new code to try again after a miss (or hit).

Makes sense to me, why keep a compromised shield freq or code for switching in place when you can just redo the entire sequence.

erkle
 
Originally posted by Viper61
How about we agree to disagree on this point. I'm just searching for a reason why it takes so long to lock a torpedo and why this can't be done once and all successive locks were instantaneous. I thought I had a pretty good idea until you came along ;). And to answer the metal object question, I'm betting that phase shields have such a powerful EM field around them that metallic objects are rejected upon impact, only transferring the kinetic energy they had to the ships shields.
Click to expand...

Yeah OK :) But I think if you try to figure things out based on what we know you're not going to get very far and just give yourself a headache.

Erkle: So you would theoretically need an infinite number of ways to generate stuff. Not practical. We want something you can't crack at all.
 
Shields on ships in wing commander are kinda funny. None of the numbers for shields or armor make sense from game to game. Since there is a regeration rate tied to a shield the way I see it shields can withstand a certain amount of pounding by enemy fire. Then after enough hits the sheild gets reduced to like the shield regen rate.

I would imagine that a shield could protect the ship from projectile or metal like objects. Only Lasers are like a single frequency radiation they would have the tendancy to just go through the shield and hit the armor of a fighter/cap. Tachyons have mass and would get deflected off a shield same with ion guns, flak guns, and mass drivers. Torps should have enough blow through effect upon hitting a target to get through a shield. Plasma guns would have mass as well so they should be partially deflected by the shields since they also carry a radiation part. Missiles can to a great deal of damage at once. They seem to do the most damage to fighters in the wing commander games. I tend to think of missiles as small torps. I think of missiles/torps as devises that are made to disrupt a magnetic field generated by a ship.

Sheilds on capitals can vary between 100/sec to 3000/sec in regen rate. I would workout more what the regen rates should be than trying to figure out or worrying about the thickness of a shield. I tend to think of armor and shield as all one part tied to overall health of the ship.

The reality of putting a shield on a ship in space would be a large magnetic field. It would tend to deflect objects as well as any object fired from the ship. Not sure how one would go about changing the frequecy of a large magnetic field in real terms. I would tend the think a drop in the field to allow the cap to fire guns would tend to make it open for enemy fire even if it were timed just right the enemy would still have a window to pass through the magnetic field or shield.
 
Originally posted by cyberwarriormm
Not sure how one would go about changing the frequecy of a large magnetic field in real terms. I would tend the think a drop in the field to allow the cap to fire guns would tend to make it open for enemy fire even if it were timed just right the enemy would still have a window to pass through the magnetic field or shield.
Click to expand...

And we actually see this exploited on rare occasion in WC.
 
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