New Ships....

Shadowcat450

Spaceman
Dragon Engines

According to the WCIV novel, the Dragon's engine is nothing special at all. It has unlimited afterburner because of the Bussard Intakes, which collect Hydrogen from space. Since fusion engines run on hydrogen, and are very efficient, the tiny amounts of Hydrogen that the intakes can collect are enough to sustain the burners indefinitely. And...I think I've read the book a few too many times if I've memorized that without even playing the game yet.
 

Supdon3

Kal-El
I dont know if they ever even went into that much detail in the game. WHich is why the books are great.
 

OriginalPhoenix

Professor Emeritus
Originally posted by Earthworm
The Lance came from the WC4 novel, and would appear to be the real name (at least to me), while the Dragon is simply a codename given by the BW, because one of the Lance squadrons which was on the Princeton, was called Dragon.
I have a problem with referring to this fighter as the "Lance" as well. It goes back to the fundamental game-over-novel-as-canon thing, as well as some minor observations.

The loadout screen in WCIV notes it as the Dragon. The ORIGIN'S OFFICIAL GUIDE TO WCIV calls it the Dragon. IIRC, it is referred to a couple of times in the game itself as Dragon. On a lesser note, The fighter LOOKS like a Dragon, what with it's drooping nose and spread wings.

The fact that Fortschen calls it the Lance, in my mind, doesn't override what is found in the game and it's supporting materials. After all, we all know that there are many inconsistencies in the novel(s).

Finally, I find it odd that the Black Lance would call their fighter the Lance. Too much overlap.

Can any of this be proven, no. But there is certainly more support for it being the Dragon, especially if Origin -- as shown in the OFFICIAL GUIDE -- calls it such (since the VESUVIUS argument was all but finalized by that same argument).

My three cents....


[Edited by OriginalPhoenix on 02-15-2001 at 23:14]
 

Earthworm

Spaceman
Originally posted by OriginalPhoenix
The loadout screen in WCIV notes it as the Dragon.
Which it should, if the BW codenamed the ship as Dragon.

The fighter LOOKS like a Dragon, what with it's drooping nose and spread wings.
As far as I know, you've never even seen a Dragon.:)


Finally, I find it odd that the Black Lance would call their fighter the Lance. Too much overlap.
The organization isn't called "Black Lance" though.

Originally posted by Dragon

Sorry, I am quite sure that you dislike the Dragon fighter for some reason, likely its because it is a too powerful fighter for WC IV time.
For God's sake, why is it that every time I say something about the Lance/Dragon, that doesn't agree with what you say, must I dislike that fighter?

I am not going to belive you until you provide prove, since you neither have done that or , as I belive, have any what you are saying is speculation.
Eh, name any of the threads I participated in, that you didn't consider something I posted as speculation...
You just dont like to be prove wrong, so you start to make statements without proves are hope that we "buy it", well I dont.
Yes, because somehow, my pethetinc life requires your aprovement of my knowledge of a fictional universe.:)
Some time ago, I said that the TCS Eisen was a Vesuvius class carrier, that was a lot of posting trying to prove me wrong, a few time ago LOAF said the same thing and he proved that the Eisen was a Vesuvius, so I was right about the Eisen all along.
Hm, weren't you the one talking how the Eisen didn't have to be a Vesuvius? At any case, in what way has LOAF proved that it's a Vesuvius class ship? Was it the fact that it carried Vampires, again?
I also can be, until proved wrong (with solid prove), right about the Dragon.
It may be hard to belive, but there isn't that much solid prove for calling it a Dragon. The only official source that really calls it that is the WC4 official guide... Meanwhile in the game we never see anyone from the Project refering to it as Dragon. So according to all the combined info from the game and the novel which you haven't read, the Dragon is mearly a codename. Just like Skipper is a codename in WC3, and Nephilim as well as names of every single bug ship are codenames in Prophecy/SO

Also Dragon is on all sites that talk about fighters not Lance.
That's because a lot of those sites are made by WC fans who played one/two games, and never even read any of the novels.

And when I'll finally finish my site, you'll have one that calls it a Lance.


[Edited by Earthworm on 02-15-2001 at 23:34]
 

Napoleon

Spaceman
LOAF's argument was that only midway and vesuvius class ships carry more than 1 wing and also would have vampires assigned. I do not buy it, just becuase we have not heard of a different carrier that has 2 wings or more does not mean that it doesn't exist, it just means we have not heard of it. We must also consider that all proven Vesuvii are named after mountains/volcanos as such naming one the Eisen does not follow the naming convention, yet when I sugested naming a midway after blair, LOAF said that since all midway's are named after battles a midway cannot be named for anything else but a battle, thus the Eisen cannot be either a midway or a vesuvius class ship becuase there is no mountain/volcano or battle named Eisen. This suggests that it is a different type of carrier that we have not yet seen. Also if anything an appropriate ship to name the Eisen would be a Ranger light Carrier since that is the type of ship he spent his entire career on, yet since they are in all probablity no longer in service it cannot be a ranger, thus leaving the identity unknown
 

Earthworm

Spaceman
Originally posted by Napoleon
LOAF's argument was that only midway and vesuvius class ships carry more than 1 wing and also would have vampires assigned. I do not buy it,
As you shouldn't, because the Prophecy guide and manual don't tell us that Vampires are only assinged to heavier carriers, it's generally assinged to heavy carriers that's all.

We must also consider that all proven Vesuvii are named after mountains/volcanos as such naming one the Eisen does not follow the naming convention,
That's not a valid argument though, because while classes in WCU often are named after one thing, we see changes to those rules.
 

Napoleon

Spaceman
I was just saying that Mr. Loaf said that all midways MUST be named for battles when I proposed a midway class not named for a battle. ALso EW that is a very good argument about the vampires "usually being assigned" to heavy carriers
 

Dragon

Spaceman
No, I actually said that.


QUOTE]Originally posted by Dragon



we see a vesuvius getting blow up in Secret ops, Eisen have vapires that are assigned to heavy carriers so the Eisen is a heavy carrier, the midway had a hard time to pass the congress so new Carries (Heavy ones) classes are not very likely to get aproval.
All evidence points to the ONLY heavy carrier class around is the vesuvius.
Of couse that if someone sees a new carrier in the game...


[/QUOTE]

And if I was you, I sould have check the "ultimate guide to wing commander", there it will be stated the Dragon real name (that is the Dragon Class Heavy Fighter), I dont have it but I know that someone in here must have it.
And If origin say that the Dragon heavy fighter is Dragon, not lance, you should belive then, after all you belive that P2 TD is on the wing commander universe since Origin say it......

[Edited by Dragon on 02-16-2001 at 01:03]
 

Earthworm

Spaceman
Originally posted by Dragon
No, I actually said that.
Oh, my bad. You were wrong than.

And if I was you, I sould have check the "ultimate guide to wing commander", there it will be stated the Dragon real name (that is the Dragon Class Heavy Fighter),
That guide is hardly the most accurate source around actually.

I dont have it but I know that someone in here must have it.
So you don't have it, yet you tell me to check it?
And If origin say that the Dragon heavy fighter is Dragon, not lance, you should belive then, after all you belive that P2 TD is on the wing commander universe since Origin say it......
First, the point is that I DON'T think OSI said it's a Dragon. Second, OSI saying that P2 is a WC game isn't the only reason why I consider it to the a part of the universe.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Several things...

Earthworm, Dragon, I don't like your tone. Calm down.

Whether or not the Dragon is a Lance is irrelevant. Neither source disproves the other. The Nephilem undoubtedly have their own names for their fighters, but neither WCP nor the WCP Guide refers to them using those names. Hell, even if you knew the correct names of Nephilem fighters (I guess they'd be along the lines of "Klklkhhhkkl'gtaa" or something), would you call them by their correct names? :)

The Black Lance, on the other hand, is the Black Lance. Why Tolwyn refers to it as The Project I don't know, but WC4 uses the name sufficiently in various circumstances to make it official. I guess Tolwyn just got used to being secretive about the BL, and refers to it as The Project even in his own mind :).
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Jesus, disagree with me if you want, but don't belittle my argument.

The claim that the the Eisen was a Vesuvius was fare more sophisticated than you're claiming.

- Midways had to be named for the locations of naval battles because this was specifically stated in the canon. This has not been stated in the case of the Vesuvius.

- Vesuvius and Midway class ships are the only carriers which support more than one wing of fighters.

- Based on the production guidelines stated in End Run (5 years to build a carrier) and the description of post-war military spending in TPoF, FC and the ICIS manual, there are no super-secret heavy carriers.

- Origin's original plan called for the Eisen to appear as a Vesuvius class ship in WCP.

I must support the use of Lance as the fighter name, with Dragon as the callsign or nickname -- just like calling the Thunderbolt II the Warthog. Again, I think this applies to the name of the organization...
 

OriginalPhoenix

Professor Emeritus
Originally posted by Earthworm
The organization isn't called "Black Lance" though.
Tolwyn himself calls it the Black Lance in the speech that Blair evesdrops on.

Originally posted by Earthworm
And when I'll finally finish my site, you'll have one that calls it a Lance.
Sorry, EW, but I still maintain that most evidence supports that it's the Dragon. Proof, no, but the weight of the scales tips toward Dragon.
 

OriginalPhoenix

Professor Emeritus
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
I must support the use of Lance as the fighter name, with Dragon as the callsign or nickname -- just like calling the Thunderbolt II the Warthog.
I'm curious as to your reasoning behind that, LOAF. Other than the novel (we all know they have suffered from errors and creative liberties from time to time), the fighter is called/denoted/spec'd as the Dragon. There's simply no other such "Lance" reference -- or am I missing something?
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
No, no other source... (to be fair, WCIV itself is the only other place that the ship is really brought up) -- it's just that (in my mind) it makes sense, and it doesn't *have* to be a contradiction. It goes with the previous Confed system of naming fighters after weapons, and the fact that 'Dragon' would become the common name because of its appearance makes sense to me...
 

Dragon

Spaceman
Yes the A-10 offical nickname is Tunderbolt II, but everbody start to call it Warthog and its that name that is being use for the A-10 nickname(and Jane´s call it that and since jane´s is a publication that is being used by everone in the armed forces....).
Besides the Dragon is a prototype fighter, it did not have a "official" nickname, since its official designation sould be XF-(something), besides the Avanger, Vindicator and the Banshee are BW nicknames for their fighters, and ConFed use those names for those fighters as well, why sould not be "Dragon" for the Black Lance Fighter as well?
Besides WC IV is based on the novel or its the other way around?
BTW its not unusual to have planes without a "official" nickname, the B-1a was excalibur but it lost it because Excalibur was a popular brand of condons at that time.
The B-1b nickname is Lance.
 

Earthworm

Spaceman
Originally posted by OriginalPhoenix
Tolwyn himself calls it the Black Lance in the speech that Blair evesdrops on.
But if you read the novel, you'd know that this little briefing was meant as a "confidence" boost for the Black Lance forces (pilots who fly the Black Lances) and when Tolwyn said "You, the Black Lance..." or something to that effect in the game he was reffering to those pilots.
 

Earthworm

Spaceman
Originally posted by Dragon
Besides the Dragon is a prototype fighter, it did not have a "official" nickname, since its official designation sould be XF-(something),
The Dragon isn't a prototype fighter...
besides the Avanger, Vindicator and the Banshee are BW nicknames for their fighters, and ConFed use those names for those fighters as well, why sould not be "Dragon" for the Black Lance Fighter as well?
How are Avenger/Vindicator/Banshee nicknames? Those are BW fighters, and they call them whatever the hell the want.
 

Dragon

Spaceman
EW, you can say what you want, one of us is right the other is wrong or we are both wrong.
Why? I have given my personal belives on that and few people have read the novel, besides that is the game, if I remenber correcty any of the fighters used by BW in the game are in the novel,the novel used old Sabres an other ConFed ships, so the novel cannot be used to make statementes on fightes on the game.
If you want to quote me on that, fine.but you will get no reply from me on that.
This discution on this subject is over for me.
 

Earthworm

Spaceman
Originally posted by Dragon
Why? I have given my personal belives on that and few people have read the novel
So what? That only means that those few people should know more about the subject that others who didn't read it.
if I remenber correcty any of the fighters used by BW in the game are in the novel,the novel used old Sabres an other ConFed ships, so the novel cannot be used to make statementes on fightes on the game.
WTF? The novel tells us that older Confed ships were used by the BW, which makes sense, but in no way does it disupute the fact that the fighters we saw in the game (Avenger/Vindicator/Banshee) did exist and were being used by BW....

[Edited by Earthworm on 02-16-2001 at 13:37]
 

iCe

Vice Admiral
[QUOTE How are Avenger/Vindicator/Banshee nicknames? Those are BW fighters, and they call them whatever the hell the want. [/B][/QUOTE]

Show some more fantasy. Everything can happen in sci-fi
 
Top