Need creative suggestions

Discussion in 'Wing Commander 3D' started by gevatter Lars, Jan 8, 2006.

  1. TCS-Concordia

    TCS-Concordia Rear Admiral

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  2. gevatter Lars

    gevatter Lars Vice Admiral

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    So after finaly finding a little bit of time I went from doing the outside to take a closer look on the inside. Mainly the hangar/fighter storage.
    Getting all 104 fighters to fit into the hull was quite tricky. I have changed the internal layout a lot in the process and this is now the version that I think would be the best.

    Let me explain the images and thoughts behind what I did.
    First the colorcode. Lightgrey areas are where fighters will be standing. Some of these spots are not so visible because the lift-placeholders are in front of it. There are also fighters parked in the catapult tubes so they are also not visible. So when counting you might not get all the 104 fighters. Still they are there.

    Red colored is where I plan to put in the lifts that will connect the different decks.

    Green colored areas are for supplies of fighters. I find its not enough space but its also going into the width of the ship...I will see if I am happy with it when I hollow out the thing and have a look from the inside. Still I doubt that I can make them any bigger as the back part is reserved for the engineroom, reactor and the engines themself.

    So lets go through the decks themself.
    Starting from the top we have the landing area. There is space to store fighters for either emergency takeoffs or to get damaged fighters out of the way. For that purpose there will also be a crane at the ceiling as seen in WC1.
    In the back there will be 4 lifts that can take fighters to the lower decks. Also there will be a small storage part.

    Second deck is the repair deck. Not much to say about it.

    Third deck will be the storage deck for fighters. Here the repaired and flight ready fighters are stored. There are also 8 lifts to the catapult tubes.

    Forth deck isn't realy a deck its just the catapult tubes. Each holding two fighters.


    The logistics to get all the fighters allways fitting inside and moveing them around might be a horror as long as all fighters are present but during normal flight a good number of these fighters will be on patrole or other missions so it should be less cramped.

    PS: There is one other version where I made the first lift go through all decks and I moved one of the lifts from the back to the middle part. Maybe I w
    ill stay with that version, cause it offers more flexebility.

    Înternal-View_001.jpg Înternal-View-Persp_001.jpg
    Înternal-View-Persp_002.jpg
     
  3. gevatter Lars

    gevatter Lars Vice Admiral

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    So little update on the interrior. Made the final layout for the storage parts. Thanks to the width the ship has now I have enough room in the storage under the flightdeck to even have some spare fighters parked there.
    Also the basic shapes of the lifts have been added. Here some images.
    Green = Storage
    Red = Lifts
    Blue = fighterbays
    Înternal-View_002a.jpg Deck01.jpg Deck02.jpg Deck03.jpg

    Next thing I worked on was the lower tower. To give it some funktion other than housing people I though about adding an shuttlebay to it.
    I know its a bit strange but the movie version had this extra bay for the ship Blair, Maniac and Taggard arrived with. As I don't have the space there I just made the bay a bit smaller and put it on the lower turret.
    Seitenansicht004.jpg Unterseite003.jpg Unterseite_Detail_front.jpg Unterseite_Detail_back.jpg
     
  4. ChrisReid

    ChrisReid Super Soaker Collector / Administrator

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    It seems like each fighter might have too much space allotted to it. It seems like every one has a nice neat rectangle stall. Look at the image here where many of the fighters are not straight and they're sometimes even alternately inverted in order to maximize every inch available.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Deathsnake

    Deathsnake Commodore

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    As I already tell in the Wingcenter: I like the idea of the shuttlehangar. At least two of them would fit in that downside tower. Nice for a cutscene for example. The VIP hangar ;) Like the Hvar'kann has. Only shorter ^^
     
  6. gevatter Lars

    gevatter Lars Vice Admiral

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    Nicely spotted Chris. Its true that each fighter has quite some room around it.
    The reason for that is that most of the decks are based around the design we see in the games or the movie.

    The landing area design comes from the movie, currently its missing the support colums so each fighter has even more space. Still the movie gave each fighter a lot of room. I think it will be a bit tighter in my final version.
    rock2_resize.jpg

    Second level will be the repair bay. Its design will be somewhat inspired by this
    hangar.jpg

    Third level is where I don't have any referance to but the fighters position is mostly dictated by the catapulte tubes. Each fighter is positioned in a way that it can be quickly lowered into the tubes.

    If I wouldn't go with these referances in mind you could surely change the layout a lot. Still I don't quite get how they could quickly move the fighters around on the image you have shown. Must be quite a logistic undertaking to launch all of them in a short time.

    A second thing I spoted in your image is that most of the fighters have folded wings. We have never seen something like that in WC. Still it would make a lot of sense, espacialy with the Hornet or Sabre who have quite a wingspan.

    For the "parking positions" I think I will go with the current layout as its matches the referances I have but there is the question how I would store spare fighters. There your image comes pretty handy.


    @Deathsnake
    As I allready said, I am not quite happy with the lower hangar idea. I might find another spot so a freetrader like the one from the movies could possibly dock.
    Still need to know the size of the ship so I can find a good spot for it.
     
  7. Red Baron

    Red Baron Rear Admiral

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    Love it. Nice to see you're streamlining the shape a little, sometimes i think the WC1 ships were designed with as many edges and angles as possible so the individual bitmaps stand out more.
    Can't wait to see it finished!
     
  8. gevatter Lars

    gevatter Lars Vice Admiral

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    Thanks.
    It would be realy interesting to hear what ideas where behind the original ships...except for "good looking" ^_^
     
  9. Silent Hunter

    Silent Hunter 2nd Lieutenant

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    A great piece of work. Worth pointing out that in RL, fighters end up parked on the deck due to lack of hangar space.
     
  10. gevatter Lars

    gevatter Lars Vice Admiral

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    Thanks Silent Hunter.
    As for the fighters, I think I will go with the source material as to how they are placed.
    Finding the line between RL and source is kinda difficulte.
    Where do you start to ignore the given values/numbers/images and where do you keep them?
    For example I am still a bit torn between in case of the number of crew members.
    I have something about 500-750 for the Bengal and 3000-6000 for RL carriers.
    So what numbers do I take over or will I mix it up a bit? Surely in the future you can have a lot of automatisation but still a lot of work would have to be done by hand. Escpacialy the fighters would need a lot of attention.
    So do I go with the source or mix it up or just take RL numbers?

    Going back to the model, I removed the lower shuttle hangar. Wasn't very happy with it and instead decided to put the extra hangarbay for the Errant in the place it was in the movie.
    Here some images.
    Errant-baydoors.jpg Errant-baydoors002.jpg Errant-baydoors003.jpg

    I hope you can put some imagination into it and think of the lines as the shape of the Errant. Currently I don't have a model for it. Maybe the guys from Standoff can help me out here.
    As for the size of the Errant I am going with the Standoff values of 52m length instead of the 25m that are in the wiki.
    From what I remember from the movie and looking at this images the size Standoff has for its model seams more fitting.


    So with this done, are there any other bigger details that I have missed? The engines are the last thing I can come up with.
    Everything else is more or less smaller details like the interriors, armor plating, turrets.
    Is there anything I missed that the other versions of the Claw had but I haven't touched yet?
     
  11. capi3101

    capi3101 Rear Admiral

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    If it's at all helpful to you, for WCRPG I put the crew complement of the Bengal-class at 2,250 (combined officers and enlisted) with a maximum occupancy of 2,790 (assuming a wing of 104 craft). Just a suggestion.
     
  12. gevatter Lars

    gevatter Lars Vice Admiral

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    Interesting, is there any reason behind the number or just that it sounds good, something it does ^_^
    Personaly I am also tending to the higher number for the crew. If I will go that high is the question.

    From Container ships I have been on I know that these need only a very small crew. From another person I had some numbers about real warships where the number of crew dropped drasticly with the newer/modern versions of basicly the same class.
    I think it was about 1/3 less crew members needed to keep up the same operations.

    So from that point of view it could be possible that ships in the future can operate with a very small crew compared to their size.
    I don't know about todays carriers, is there a newer version that is comparable to the old Nimitz class ships?
    Maybe that could help in determin the size of the Bengals crew. If a modern carrier still needs about the same crewsize as an older one then it might be the same with the Bengal...or at least I would go with that.
    If modern carriers of today have reduced the crew in about the same way as the other ships I read about it could be quite possible that I will drop the number to 750-1000 people.

    IIRC the Nimitz-class is currently undergoing some bigger upgrades. Does anyone know about this and has some numbers of the crew?
    That would be the best point IMO to see if a carrier still needs a very large crew or if more modern components change it.
     
  13. capi3101

    capi3101 Rear Admiral

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    Well, the numbers I came up with were partially based on the game's system for determining accommodation space. That's based on a set of assumptions which I'll go into if you'd like. The actual number also assumed fewer crew needed as automation improved over time (Current ship's compliment for the Nimitz-class is 3,200 with an additional 2,480 for the air crew. The Gerald R. Ford-class will have a compliment of 508 officers and 3,789 crew, so there is a downward trend in crew compliment as technology improves).
     
  14. gevatter Lars

    gevatter Lars Vice Admiral

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    If my mathematic skills aren't all wrong that would mean ~25% reduction of the crew in about 40 years that are between the first Nimitz class vessels and the point where the first new one will be build.

    Second thing I notice about these numbers is that for "just" 85 Aircrafts there is a crew of 2500 people?!
    So about half the crew of a Nimitz is just working on fighters, including pilots and all the other staff...just what is the other half doing?
    Are these all techs keeping the carrier running?

    Anyway, just trowing some numbers around I would estimate that for each fighter on the Ford class there would be 23 persons.
    So going up to the 104 fighters of the Bengal that would make 2392 people just for the aircrew.
    Lets further say that tech advanced so much that we could reduce the crew about another 25% that would make 1425 persons.

    Giveing the Bengal a total crew of 3817. Pretty high number but on the other hand the Bengal is nearly twice as long and has an higher fighter compliment.
    Even if I reduce the number by 25% it would still be around 2850.

    Mh that number sounds pretty good and as we don't have any other referance that has a more serious number then 750, I might stick with it ^_^
     
  15. gevatter Lars

    gevatter Lars Vice Admiral

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    When you out of creative juice do something fun...so I did.
    Fun003.jpg
     
  16. Red Baron

    Red Baron Rear Admiral

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    Oh that's the kind of out-of-juicity i'd welcome any time. Nice one.
     
  17. Silent Hunter

    Silent Hunter 2nd Lieutenant

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    In their various ways, yes. A carrier is a floating small town - it has restaurants, hairdressers, places of worship and recreation spaces. You need cooks, mechanics and medics as well as engineers.
     
  18. gevatter Lars

    gevatter Lars Vice Admiral

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    @Silent
    Indeed. I have reseived an interesting calculator from Knight26 from Scifi-Meshes where he lists all the different jobs people need to do on a ship. Using his calculator table I got a crew of ~1700 people. Far less then the number I had.
    I guess I will think about these numbers again when I do the inside of the ship. Currently I am back on the outside.

    So whats "new"? Well the engines have finaly been delivered and installed.
    I have taken over the layout from a cutscene here instead of the Clawmarks as these engines where realy big and not so fitting to the ship.
    wc_142_resize.png Engine.jpg

    Other changes are the addition of bussard intakes. Since I couldn't decide what to do with the sidepods one of the bussards went there. The other is on top and one at the bottom of the ship around the engine section.
    Currently its represented by a white glow.
    Persp008.jpg Unterseite004.jpg
     
  19. Red Baron

    Red Baron Rear Admiral

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    I was about to suggest Bussard intakes too, nice to have some fluffy technological foundation for the franchise.
    They were blueish-white in WC3 and 4, but some ships in WC2 had some red intakes too. Do you know already what you'll go with?
    The turrets need some sort of base i think. They were huge and intimidating in the manual, don't say you should make them just as big, but i think they need something to stand out more.
    Maybe that's something that can be achieved through clever texturing.
    Don't know if a Strike Carrier is supposed to be armed with them, but have you considered Capship Missile launchers?
     
  20. gevatter Lars

    gevatter Lars Vice Admiral

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    For the intakes I will go with blue ones. Except I find a complete other shape to make them not that obviouse. Maybe just a grid like we see it on the Tallahassee.

    A base for the turrets might be a nice detail that I could add. I have thought of the current turrets as placeholders. They have the right size but the shape might be a bit to complex when looking at other WC turrets and personaly I don't like the bubbleshape of WC2 ships. Anyway good idea with the base.

    As for the capmissiles. Nope I haven't thought of them. The ship currently has a good number of missiles, as seen in the movie and there will be a row of torpedo tubes at the front under the runway (not directly at the tip, a bit further in the back).
    Here is an image of the side missile launcher.
    Racketenbucht.jpg
    As far as fiction goes I thought of these to be simple missiles or nukes. Don't know what kind of warhead they have in the movie but I doubt they where nukes. The EMP would have killed the Claw.
    Point is that if these where capship missiles I would have to make the holes bigger, what would be annoing but posssible, but it would also give the Claw to much firepower.
    The number of weapons in the movie was allready far above everything in the games and my mixup is also pretty well armed but giveing it additinal capmissiles would realy be a bit to much.

    Beside that, when where these missiles first mentioned? I think they where not mentioned before WC3 and its been to long since I read the novels so I can't remember these.
    Does anyone knows that?
    If they where used earlier, around WC1 that is, is there any referance if they where common on every warship or just some special ones?
     

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