Militia Paradigms?

[fyodor]

I think the confusion comes from the (mis)use of the term militia. Militia tend to be am unpaid (or paid volinteer) local military force capable of battle.

I thought militia were basically conscripts (i.e. not necessarily volunteers) - and historically paid (although not always, and not always much).

 

[Forlarren]

So should Gemini have ISS or not?

And I think we both agree though that a militia may be many things but, rent-a-cops they are not. It seems the "militias" in gemini are poorly misnamed, I can live with that though for this project. It may be something that should be brought up for the WCU project though.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I think WCU should certainly have ISS units in Gemini.

I'm not sure it would add any gameplay or game balance to include them in the Privateer Remake, though.

 

[Forlarren]

No. Militias are citizen armies. I provided a link in an earlier post.

Militia != police.

The distiction is very important. Militia do not police, they fight battles like an army. Thats why I am saying that whatever the WC "militia" is they are not an accual militia.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I'm not really sure what you're pursuing here -- your own link defines "police" as "All personnel -- whether military, paramilitary or civilian -- that exercise police functions".

 

[Forlarren]

Militia almost NEVER do police work, they are called up in times of emergencies to do battle. Being in a militia is just about the farthest you can get from being in the police. Their were also more definitions than the one you chose to quote (conviently the most broad interpratation). Militia do not fight criminals they fight wars (unless the criminals are capable of making war). Im just saying that the WC devs made a mistake calling the loose rent-a-cop organisasion the "militia". No biggy it happens. The USSR was not United (except under militay force), Soviet (entirely), Socialist (comunest), or a Republic (dictatorship/oligarchy). Just pointing out they were mislabled (and offering some useless knowledge).

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Hmm, now that I think about it, even the Constitution uses 'militia' to refer to police forces: "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union" (Article I, Section 8).

 

[Forlarren]

Yes in the face of mass uprising, not day to day police. Your grasping at straws here LOAF. Militias are armies, not rent-a-cops, even if they do a little policing here and there, and only in the broadest sence of the word. You wouldn't call up the militia to do a drug bust. Calling forth the militia is a BIG deal, it was done only in times of war.

 

[spiritplumber]

It's entirely possible that the day-to-day meaning of "militia" has changed in seven centuries, too

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Well... so far I've pointed out why the term makes sense from your own definition, given examples of the term in history and pointed out the terms proper usage in the most famous document ever written. I'm just not sure where you're coming from or where you're trying to go.

 

[Penta2]

LOAF: You're interpreting the document on its lonesome. That's a bad idea; It has to be considered in context.

With risk of going screaming off into constitutional theory, it should be remembered that the Framers were often lawyers...Lawyers trained in the English tradition, which means people like Sir William Blackstone.

Under the Common Law tradition, the militia means the army. It quite <i>emphatically</i> does not mean the cops, insofar as police even were concieved of in 1776 or earlier, when Blackstone wrote (I forget when, but it was earlier than 1776, as it's often used in American jurisprudence and was even referred to in speeches by Scalia and Stevens, IIRC).

It may mean an army composed of "ye hick villagers armed with whatever's handy", but it means "ye hick villagers" under command of the government.

A useful thing to think about, if one takes the theory that the TC is based off of the US...

The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, which banned the use of federal troops in domestic activities, could be asked about...

As could 10 USC 311, which defines a militia. I'll quote here since it's short:

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

Now, let's go mosey over to Title 32, which deals with the National Guard.

The definition of the Army National Guard in 32 USC 101 is instructive, since the National Guard is legally the descendant of the militia:

(4) “Army National Guard” means that part of the organized militia of the several States and Territories, Puerto Rico, and the District of Columbia, active and inactive, that—
(A) is a land force;
(B) is trained, and has its officers appointed, under the sixteenth clause of section 8, article I, of the Constitution;
(C) is organized, armed, and equipped wholly or partly at Federal expense; and
(D) is federally recognized.

The Air National Guard def, for completeness sake:

(6) “Air National Guard” means that part of the organized militia of the several States and Territories, Puerto Rico, and the District of Columbia, active and inactive, that—
(A) is an air force;
(B) is trained, and has its officers appointed, under the sixteenth clause of section 8, article I of the Constitution;
(C) is organized, armed, and equipped wholly or partly at Federal expense; and
(D) is federally recognized

Now, that says certain things to me:

1. You must be organized. You cannot be any yabob (I always wanted to be able to use that word) with a gun.
2. It is organized under personnel who are commissioned in the armed forces as officers.
3. It is equipped at federal expense (Read: Confederate expense)
4. It is Recognized by the Federal Government (Read: Confederate Government)

What this means? Mercenaries contracted by the local planets are nothing. They're better termed "rentacops". Maybe "System police". The Militia, meanwhile, are like the National Guard in Space.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Once again, you're describing InSystem Security, from Wing Commander 2. It's not the same thing as the Militia.

 

[Forlarren]

He was responding to this.

Well... so far I've pointed out why the term makes sense from your own definition, given examples of the term in history and pointed out the terms proper usage in the most famous document ever written. I'm just not sure where you're coming from or where you're trying to go.

Not this.

As far as I know, the only time the Privateer factions are formally defined is in the Playtester's Guide, which has this to say about the militia: "Militia forces are local mercenaries hired by individual planets for security purposes. They are friendly towards Confederation forces and are initially indifferent to your presence. However, they will attack you if you are allied with pirates or if you are caught smuggling contraband goods. You are apt to encoutner militia pilots in the vicinity of any inhabited planets other than pirate bases. Militia forces are allied with the Confederation, so your behavior towards Confederation fighters will also determine your relationship with the militia." (p.56)

If you want a Coast Guard equivalency, you really want the ISS -- the Wing Commander 2 script literally refers to Blair's assignment to the ISS as being the "equivalent of the Coast Guard". The ISS are part of the Confederation (/federal) government instead of employees of local planets.

So quit playing dumb. And where am I trying to go? The WC devs messed up by calling the rent-a-cops a militia. What should be done about it. Probably nothing. But making the note is important. Just like how in the PrivR manual it says the laser is not a laser. Somewhere we need to say the militia is not an actual militia. Then it could be left at that.

 

[Forlarren]

Damn this got so far off topic I almost forgot the point. Would the (misnamed) militia have cap ships? Probably not (because they are not the costguard), or very rare, and then only the odd Drayman retrofited (or older style with turrets built in, even the police have the odd bus, truck, and APC). Should they have something that can fight off pirates? I would think that they would equip themselves to do the job. So this comes down to, respect the canon even though it makes no since. Or break from it and give the rent-a-cops something other than a walkie talkie to fight back with.

 

[criticalmass]

Could it be that we're coming from different cultural backgrounds, where the term militia is used in slightly different connotations? Then you could both be right.

Actually, you are. The term used in the US Constitution does refer to the militia model LOAF is describing, while the Forlarren's descriptions sound to me more like the usage in the context of, say, the 30-years war in the 17th century, or in the context of modern-day regional conflicts in Africa.

Want more diversity? Look at the Wikipedia article - there's even four meanings listed:
* An official reserve army, composed of non-professional soldiers
* The national police forces in the Russia, and other CIS countries, and the Soviet Union: Militsiya
* The entire able-bodied population of a state, which can be called to arms against an invading enemy
* A private, non-government force, not necessarily directly supported or sanctioned by the government


In any case - and to come back to the original topic - if sombody (read: some system) does have enough dough to finance a Paradigm for militia use, then why shouldn't they? I have even seen a country sherriff cruise around in a squad-car design Jaguar.

 

[criticalmass]

Hey Forlarren, maybe we should stop editing or posts simultaneuosly all the time - this starts to look like we want to say the same thing...

 

[Forlarren]

Well the only mention in the artical of militias acting as police are the Militsiya, and nowhere in the Militsiya artical did it say militsiya translates into militia (though it did say Militiya should not be translated into the engilsh word "police"). All other examples of militias were citizen armies, not police.

[quote="Bandit LOAF]"To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union" (Article I, Section 8)[/quote]

Well first you have to get through the 200 year old lawyer speek. Penta2 did that for us. Then it seems obvious that Article I, Section 8 is talking about calling out the guard to put down riots, fight insurection, and such. Not give speeding tickets. If a militia could not "execute the Laws of the Union" then it would be impossable for them to opperate in any meaningful way.

 

[Forlarren]

Well the hope is eventually we will want to say the same things. Consensis is good

I now offically know more about militias that I ever wanted to. My brain hurts.

 

[Penta2]

Forlarren, my apologies...

Tylenol should be on the shelf to the left, above the microwave. As should any other med you may want.:-P

 

[criticalmass]

Sorry for being annoyingly persevering, but that was my whole point in quoting the Wikipedia:

Well the only mention in the artical of militias acting as police are the Militsiya, and nowhere in the Militsiya artical did it say militsiya translates into militia (though it did say Militiya should not be translated into the engilsh word "police")

The full quote runs like that:

Militsiya (Russian: мили́ция; Ukrainian: міліція; Romanian: Miliţia; literally "Militia") was the generic name for the police in the Soviet Union and a few other Communist countries. It is now used as a short official name of the police in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and some other post-Soviet states. Due to the history of the term and the distinctive local features, the militsiya should be considered a special regional kind of policing system, not just a translation of the English "police".

So at least in some Russian-speaking nations, "militsiya" does mean "militia" literally, and and at the same time "police" in a wider sense. And here we are in the WC universe, thinkung all the time that the culture was modeled after the US...

Now I need something stronger than Tylenol. Vodka would be in order.