Infernal WC date mixups!
- Thread starter gryphon
- Start date
I gave up on trying to make the movie and Academy canon years ago - I mean, in the movie they all have Navy ranks, then space force ranks in the games, dates, designs and all... In short, LT JG is a navy rank, corresponding to 1st LT in the Army (Ensign being 2nd LT) - that makes Blair equivalent to a 1st LT in the movie, looking at the rank table - I gave up on this, as I said, I see the WCM and ATV as "in game fiction" - sort of like "First To Kilrah", if You catch my drift...
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
The movie ranks are easy -- just convert them across the rank chart and then subtract two grades for the 'non-flying' Navy officer ranks (ensign 1st and 2nd class). Everybody comes up with their WC1 or earlier ranks.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Hmm, I recall it being more complicated than that... would be pretty cool to work out an explanation for each of his rank changes, actually.
He is, as you point out, a Commodore in 2654 (Red & Blue). But then he's an Admiral (full?) in the Movie, and that's in 2654. Then SM1 or 2 mentions him being a Vice Admiral (and so does FF), while in the meantime the other WCA episodes make him a Commodore again. Then there's WC2, which seems to imply that he's a full Admiral, and subsequently he's a Rear Admiral in End Run. And of course, on top of all this, there's always the question of his role in the Pilgrim War, which I can't remember off the top of my head.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I don't think you can drawl anything from simply calling him 'Admiral' -- that could refer to anything from Commodore (one-star Admiral) to Space Marshal (five-star Admiral). The only serious anomaly, in my mind, is when he's specifically refered to as a Vice Admiral... I'll have to look up exactly when that was.
Since the two Ensign ranks don't fly.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
I don't know about that... it is a solution, but it's kind of shaky, since we have several occasions where people suggest that in the WC universe, a Commodore isn't really a one-star Admiral, but something less than that. There are, for example, the conversations Tolwyn has with Bergstrom and that guy in Red & Blue. In both cases, we could say that they're referring to being a full Admiral, I guess. But still, why would people keep switching between Admiral and Commodore?
Also, Commodore Bellegarde is his subordinate in the movie. It seems kinda odd that he would have a subordinate equal in rank to him, especially when we're talking about such a high rank.
Personally, I'd rather come up with a solution to explain the changes in his rank rather than to assume that those changes never took place (though not in every case - it's quite convenient, for example, to assume that he wasn't a full Admiral in WC2). So, the reason why he dropped from Vice Admiral to Rear Admiral would be the loss of the Tiger's Claw - and losing a star over this incident would certainly explain his subsequent animosity towards Blair.
You could make the argument that he switches ranks to get around a bit of fleet parlimentary procedure. . . the fact that maybe a Admiral can't command a single ship (highest rank would be a commodore) and that it takes an Admiral to command a task force (kindof like the rank re-arrangement everyone took in False Colors).
C-ya
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Quoth dictionary.com -
commodore
n : a commissioned naval officer who ranks above a captain and below a rear admiral; the lowest grade of admiral
The distinction in WC being that a commodore will command an individual ship -- whereas an Admiral will not. This seems to be the bone of contention for Tolwyn... he's stuck commanding the Tiger's Claw when Bergstrom and Banbridge have moved on to bigger things.
Bellegarde's subordinate-ness would be based entirely on position, though -- as the various novels are fond of pointing out, a 2nd Lt. in charge of a ship will be able to command an Admiral.
I do like that reasoning for the drop to Rear Admiral.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Hmm, yeah, that makes sense. So that would pretty much sort out the question of his rank... what about his assignments? I mean, one minute we see him preparing to take command of the Tiger's Claw, next we see him commanding the Concordia's battle group, and then he's on the Tiger's Claw. I guess the way to explain this would be that when he visited the Academy in Red & Blue, he had already been informed of his upcoming assignment, but it hadn't taken effect yet. Presumably, the movie's events then delayed his removal from the Concordia group for a while. I guess, given that he apparently didn't get along that well with the space marshall (though I'm going on what I've heard here, since I still haven't got my hands on the movie-related novels), it's reasonable that even in spite of his success defending Earth, he still got dispatched to the Tiger's Claw. What do you think?
Okay, that brings up a question for me. Bainbridge is CICCONFLT in the novel Action Stations. I believe he is also at the same position in Fleet Action. Where does a space marshal rank in all this? Tolwyn is Bainbridges protege, it seems to me he wouldn't let anything happen to him.
C-ya
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
At the time of the WC movie, there was a different chief of staff - Space Marshall Gregarova (did I spell that right?). Chief of staff isn't an ordinary rank. It's very political - the president selects him/her. I don't know if the term of office is limited for a chief of staff, but at any rate, every time a new president is elected, the chief of staff is bound to change. So, for most of the time between '34 and '68, Banbridge probably wasn't the chief of staff. Truth be told, it's quite amazing that he was still in shape to be the chief of staff in '68, since by then, he had seen over 60 years (!) of service. Of course, people might live longer in WC, though this isn't suggested by any source.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Banbridge -- the 'TCS Bainbridge' in the WC4 novel is named after a real-life Admiral and not the character from AS/FA.
PrinceThrakhath and I had a nice chat about this a few days back, actually. Here's my take:
Tolwyn commanded the Tiger's Claw prior to Red & Blue, and hence he was known to the cadets as "Captain of the Tiger's Claw". On 2654.048 (according to the 'Parade' article in the TCH) he was recalled to Earth for 'several weeks' to brief the JCS. During this time the Tiger's Claw is undergoing the 'refit' mentioned in Red & Blue. That 'several weeks' brings us up to about 2654.070 -- two days before Red & Blue starts. Tolwyn would have just arrived at Sirius to take over the Tiger's Claw... and then finds out he's been assigned to command the Concordia battle group. The movie takes place, Pilgrim Stars takes place, several series' of WC1 take place... then occurs an event we don't know much about. This is from the WC3 novel:
"At the height of the action he relieved old Captain Thorn, the ship's commanding officer, and filed charges against him for cowardice in the face of the enemy. Thorn had later been reinstated, but no one serving with the old man ever quite forgot the day."
Tolwyn takes over the Tiger's Claw and saves the day in some kind of action that hasn't been detailed. In so doing, though, he loses favor with the high command... and he spends the rest of his time on the 'Claw in a 'backwater sector' (the rest of WCA).
He then disrupts the ceremony on Dolos, wins back favor and a promotion of two grades to Vice Admiral. He's assigned to command the Austin Battle Group. (Thorn still hasn't returned to the 'Claw -- so Halcyon takes over for the duration of Operation Thor's Hammer...).
Then I suppose we can say Tolwyn was demoted a grade after the failure to destroy K'Tithrak Mang. He gets reassigned to Sol Station... where he stays until 2661 when he takes command of the Concordia and the 14th fleet.
Aries
Vice Admiral
no idea. from what i understand of navy command structure, his title of CICCONFEDFLT would just make him the head of the fleet, with the JCS and Chief of Staff over him. but the book, at least to me, presents him like he is the head of everything. maybe at the begining of the war, due to the funding cutbacks more was pushing, CICCONFEDFLT was in effect the chief of staff, but then after the war got on, they made the jobs seperate.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Yay, that actually all fits together. At least until they make the TV series and confuse things again
. But, looking at that article in TCH, I think there's still more questions to solve.The article talks about Tolwyn's naval history a bit, suggesting that he entered the Academy sometime around 2614-2619 (for sake of simplicity, let's assume that if it was later than 2619, it would be 'just over three decades' rather than 'almost four decades'). He subsequently managed to become a Commodore by 2632-33... at which point, he graduates from the Academy just in time for Action Stations.
This makes me wonder. According to the CIC timeline, Tolwyn was born in 2613. According to TCH, on the other hand, he entered the Academy just a year or two afterwards, and was in his late 30s when he became a Commodore. In other words, the TCH Tolwyn is just old enough to be his own father. Now, this is a rather crazy notion, I realise, but is it possible that the TCH Tolwyn is in fact the father of the AS Tolwyn?