In a War Which would win?
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Quarto
Unknown Enemy
The logo we see (the weird swastika-like thingy - is that what you are referring to as 'Metallica'?) seems to be in use on just about every BW vessel we see in the game, though... it would be logical to assume that these are the Militia's standard markings (generally, the national emblem is not used as military markings - take for example the various stars and circles that have been used by US air forces over the past century).
(note to Weasel: agreed, but the game ending can only take place after the novel ending, so there has been plenty of time)
Yes, but the intention seems to matter little in this case. I mean, the game's creator probably intended that the entire Border Worlds rejoined the Confederation (hence during the endings we see both Hawk and Panther in Confed uniforms), but this was (thankfully) ignored.
Actually, there's very strong evidence that the Intrepid was owned and acquired legitimately by the Border Worlds. First, the fact that it already had a BW paintjob and had been converted to a carrier when Blair first saw it indicates that the Border Worlds had owned it for more than a few days. Second, Blair notes that the carrier "looked like one of the old destroyers the Confederation had discarded and sold off". So, if we know Confed sold such destroyers, and we know the BW acquired the ship at least a few months before the conflict, there can be only one conclusion - it had been purchased legitimately. This forces us to ask - why would they want to get it back?
Yes, but in the context of the BW-Confed military exchange, it is much easier to answer these questions without reaching the conclusion that the Intrepid is now owned by Confed. The Intrepid's visit to Sol is certainly not unusual (warships visit allied countries all the time) - heck, since this must take place after Blair's stint as a Confed General serving in the Border Worlds, the Intrepid might actually be there to drop Blair off to his flight instructor assigment. Panther might be wearing the Confed uniform because she's about to go on exchange. I'll admit that doesn't explain why she's already wearing it while still onboard the Intrepid, but when faced with the option of Panther inexplicably wearing a Confed uniform or the Intrepid inexplicably changing hands, I think leaving Panther unexplained is the more sensible option.
And finally, not related to the Intrepid thing, but more a reply to the thread in general - while looking for Intrepid facts, I noticed that when Blair's talking with Paulsen about the conflict, it is mentioned that the Border Worlds does have a navy "strong enough to pose a threat", but without the force projection needed for a Confed-wide war (presumably, this means either heavier carriers or the transports needed for extended supply lines). Thus, it may be that we have all underestimated the size of the Border Worlds navy by a long way, because the ships we saw in WC4 most certainly would not be enough to constitute a threat to Confed.
Ladiesman^
Spaceman
Yes....because we see lots of Border Worlds ships that aren't the Intrepid....(or flying off the Intrepid)
Actually, wasn't it stated in the book that the Intrepid just got a new paintjob?
Not really...
Or, we could explain it very easily by saying the Border Worlds militia was just "absorbed" into Confed....all the problems are solved *VERY* easily....what *WAS* the Border Worlds militia now might serve as In-System Security or a Home Defense fleet in the Border Worlds....
Yeah, but Paulsen was trying to sell the war to everyone...OF COURSE he's going to say they're a threat. It helps to gain support.
Or, the Border Worlds may very well have very little....and the Black Lance were just saying the Border Worlds was a threat. Another simple explanation...
If I remember correctly, those wrre Blair's thoughts rather than Paulsen's words. He was thinking that the Border Worlders made the perfect bogeymen because..ect, ect.
When you're carrying out a campaign of misinformation/propaganda though, it's usually best not to lie about independantly verifiable facts. If someone (for example someone like Taggart, who has ties to military Intel) checks up on your numbers and they don't add up, it tends to bring the whole thing crashing down around your ears.
As for the Border Worlds Militia being absorbed wholesale into Confed, that's stretching things a little. Confed and BW forces had just clashed, as a result of a Confed Admiral trying to frame the Border Worlders. The only reason the Border Worlders survived was because they had the capability to gather information and fight their way to Sol with it, capability that was independant of Confed. And having done that, they turn full control of their military to Confed, making sure they won't have the capability that saw them through the Black Lance crisis. Trusting people, these Border Worlders.
In addition, in the real world, a sovereign nation very rarely turns control of its military to a foreign government. Best, Raptor
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Well, yeah, we do. There's the BWS Tango, there's various transports, frigates and a cruiser (though I'll admit I don't remember if we actually see the Johns Hopkins in the game, or just read about it in the book), there's all those hijacked BW fighters in Pasqual and Nephele; and of course, all the fighters we engage in Tyr when flying off the Lexington, and the fighters in Telamon if we fly the Dragon. All of them have that logo.
I can't remember anything about that, but what is certainly said is that the Border Worlds added a hangar to it. That would have been a fairly extensive modification, so the Intrepid could not have been recently hijacked - especially since the book clearly implies that Confed has been selling these things.
And the basis for such an assumption is... ummm... wait, there is no basis. On the contrary, there is the big question of *why*. From a political and public relations point of view, the Border Worlds *won* the 'conflict'. Thus, they had no reason whatsoever to sign such a humiliating treaty with Confed - because any treaty that stipulates the dismantlement of your national army is a humiliation. The Border Worlds had no reason to accept such a humiliation, and more to the point, Confed had no reason to even try to force such a condition on them.
Like Raptor said, those were Blair's thoughts - not Paulsen's, and certainly not the Black Lance's (or were they? Maybe there's something Blair hasn't told us about himself?
). Thus, we can be pretty certain that the Border Worlds does have a sizeable fleet, especially when there's no reason why they wouldn't.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Yes, that's the logo I'm talking about -- it's the 'logo' of some popular band, although I'm not knowledgeable enough about such things to say with any degree of certainty that it's Metallica. That's what my fairly-fuzzy memories said.
Regardless, that's supposed to be the *Intrepid*'s logo. That's why it's what appears all over the Intrepid sets and on the fighter models, whereas the circular yellow 'wings' logo is what appears on all the uniforms/comms/etc. (The argument that one is a 'military' logo in the style of the US markings makes no sense... for *both* appear as military logos throughout).
'Probably intended'? How so? The game clearly establishes early on that the Border Worlds are independant and that there are significant reasons for this -- outside of Tolwyn's plot. There's never any indication anywhere that you're trying to 'unite' Confed and the Border Worlds -- simply that you're trying to prevent a war between two powers.
In my case, the intention *does* seem to matter because it's made clear in the game: he's set the scene in the Sol System, he's used all Confed extras and he's put all the Border Worlders in Confed costumes.
More clear than 'looks like' is when the novel states another pair of facts: that one of the supposed issues behind the conflict is that the Border Worlds has yet to return carriers loaned to them during the Kilrathi war (which would seem to imply the Intrepid...) and *Paladin's* comment that the Border Worlds using an active carrier means that Confed will certainly vote to declare war. Confed is both expecting that ships be returned *and* that the Border Worlds militia not use such ships.
So... your explanation is that... you don't have an explanation? Honestly, though, I think this is a clear case of Blair-centrism. Panther was a Confed officer before the conflict... if Blair, Maniac, etc. went back to being Confed officers, why didn't she? (To wit, all those who later 'transfered' in Prophecy had already left Confed service... Dekker and Hawk were mercenaries and Wilford had retired his comission).
Still, your explanation makes no sense. Blair and Maniac are clearly training groups of pilots on the Intrepid -- and Panther brings Blair "a new batch of newbies to shake down". Nothing about that scene even begins to imply what you're saying. (Furthermore, Paladin specifies that *here* (referring to Intrepid) Blair is just an instructor...).
Quoth Blair: "Yeah, but has it occurred to you, Maniac, that the Border Worlds militia probably doesn't have the technology to do what we just saw out there?" The idea that he's being lead to believe that the Border Worlds are stronger than they really are in an attempt to get him to join Tolwyn's project is a big element of both game and book...
pygmypiranha
Vice Admiral
I don't think that the boarder worlds would win, but in all seriousness the Confederation would probably step in and not let a war draw out for that long. I think that if anything did start the Confederation would step in and try to stop it before anything too serious happened.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Nothing unusual with having both appearing as military logos, since the US forces also use (or used) several - for example, the logos used on Navy planes were usually different to those used on Air Force planes.
I totally agree that the logo was probably supposed to be the Intrepid's logo, though. It's just that in this case, the finished product seems to have totally ignored the designer's intention. Both logos are used throughout in such a mixed-up manner that the only possible in-universe explanation is that they're both used as logos of the BW forces.
Naturally, but the ending does seem to try to suggest that the two sides were united. As you pointed out, all the Border Worlders are wearing Confed uniforms - even Hawk, who we know was thrown out from the Confed forces.
Actually, outside of this discussion, how exactly did he manage to get himself back into the Confed forces for WCP?
.Except that we don't know if they're referring to the Intrepid, and it seems more probable that they *don't*. It is stated that the Border Worlders are the ones who modified the ship into a carrier. Therefore, we know this is not a carrier loaned to the Border Worlds.
As for Paladin's comment, you are taking it out of context. Paladin doesn't even use the word 'carrier', just 'an active Border Worlds ship'. What he means, presumably, is that this is the first confirmed attack by a BW military vessel on a Confed vessel. Confed *is* expecting that the BW not use such ships *against them*. That the BW is allowed to have such ships in general is proven by the very fact that Confed loaned some to them.
Hmm, I don't recall where it said Panther was Confed before the conflict, but I think you're right. Of course, that doesn't really go towards proving that the Intrepid is or isn't Confed.
Oh, come on, you know very well that "here you are" is a figure of speech
. And yes, my explanation does not make much sense - but neither does the Confed-Intrepid explanation. And that's exactly my point. We all agree that the Eisen's a Vesuvius because it's pointless to complicate the universe with theories about new carriers (ignoring the fact that the WCP people said it's a Ves, since that's not an in-universe explanation), so why complicate the universe with explanations to why the Intrepid was handed over to Confed, based on a single scene, which only shows that for some reason, the Intrepid visited the Sol system (not unusual), and some Confed officers came onboard (not unusual either)?Without a doubt, but he seems to think this before Paulsen really tries to persuade him about the BW. There is nothing to really prove that Blair was wrong about this (nor that he was right, of course). I'm not trying to say that the Border Worlds are stronger than we think they are, I am simply pointing out that we can't accurately assess their strength.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Wait, you're accusing *me* of creating some sort of complicated explanation? Consider the last time we see the Intrepid in the timeline:
Situation: Blair, Maniac and a group of cadets are in Confed uniforms onboard the Intrepid in the captol system of the Confederation. Panther, also in a Confed uniform, brings a group of Confed cadets to Blair claiming that they're here as new (Confed) recruits for training.
My explanation: the Intrepid is now a Confed training carrier.
Your explanation: the Intrepid is a Border Worlds warship, despite the fact that Secret Ops claims that the Border Worlds rely on Confed's navy for their defense. The Border Worlds is using their flagship instead of a shuttle to deliver Blair to Earth where he will be a flight instructor. For some reason Paladin has bothered to get in a ship and fly out to Saturn to visit Blair (who is on his way to Earth) instead of waiting the *eight minutes* it takes a ship to cross this distance. Also, for some reason, Maniac and a group of Confed pilots are onboard. Also, Panther has travelled from Earth with Blair's new group of cadets (again, instead of waiting eight minutes), so they can meet him before he arrives at wherever he's *really* training them. Also, instead of going to Earth Blair takes off in a Banshee to log some flying time.
Which of these is more complicated for the Wing Commander universe? Mine, perhaps, complicates various pieces of fan fiction -- but it is not a complicated explanation and such things are free to ignore such things at their leisure anyway. We need not all send the Intrepid to the Border Worlds simply because we think it would make our favorite faction look better.
She and Hawk served together during the war (in the Astoria System).
The WCP Guide clears this up -- his bio claims that Hawk *wasn't* thrown out of Confed service -- he voluntarily resigned after the Academy incident... his being 'kicked out' was a rumor (spread by people like Maniac).
I must concede this point -- although it was designed for the Intrepid, it does clearly appear on other ships and therefore must mean something else... I don't think this is particularly telling, though -- Intrepid clearly hasn't even been repaired as of the time of the WCIV scene, something that should come *before* a repaint.
Confed sent them ships during the war... apparently they do not expect the Border Worlds to have them in active service circa 2673 (as Paladin implied at the top of this very paragraph...). As for the reference being to a carrier, that seems (IMO) to be the case: Paladin is responding to Tolwyn's claim that there is a carrier (surely the use of cruiser-sized ships by the Border Worlds is *not* a surprise, as we encounter a pair of them in a convoy early on in WCIV...).
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Yes, I am. The difference between my explanation and yours is that while I cannot provide any sensible proof, I am trying (and failing) to prove a sensible hypothesis. On the other hand, while you do provide some (*inadequate*) proof, you are trying to prove a hypothesis that goes against all reason.
Put another way, I am saying that seeing Confed officers onboard the Intrepid is not enough reason to claim that the status quo had changed. You are saying that, because there is no proof to show that the status quo hasn't changed, we must assume this is adequate proof to show that it has changed. Both our claims are pretty much baseless, but mine does carry the weight of Occam's razor - the reasons why Confed wouldn't want a Durango-class vessel, modified or otherwise, are far easier to prove than any reasons why they would want to take the Intrepid. Therefore, it is simpler to assume that even if we do not know any reasonable explanation to what is happening in the WC4 ending, there must be an explanation more reasonable than yours.
Well yeah, I knew that, but what I mean (and this is just curiosity on my part, since her status would not really prove anything) is whether we know if she was still serving in Confed forces before coming across to the BW - ie., did she defect, or did she at some point leave Confed forces and then for one reason or another decided to sign up with the BW?
The WCP Guide clears this up -- his bio claims that Hawk *wasn't* thrown out of Confed service -- he voluntarily resigned after the Academy incident... his being 'kicked out' was a rumor (spread by people like Maniac).
Agreed, but the Intrepid's unrepaired state, in a way, it is rather telling, actually... is the Confederation really so desperate for a place to train its rookies, that it buys (or takes) an obsolete destroyer converted into an inadequate, unsafe carrier (no catapult) which, on top of everything, is so badly damaged that pilots have to sleep on the deck, and the CIC stands in for the bridge. It seems pretty clear that, while a Confed Intrepid would be one way to explain what we see in the WC4 ending, it would not be the most logical explanation ever, to put it very mildly indeed.
If Paladin is implying that the Border Worlds should not have active service vessels by this time, then why doesn't Tolwyn mention them in his concluding remarks to the Assembly? In my opinion, Paladin is referring only to the fact that this is the first confirmed attack by Border Worlds forces. Considering that this seems to also be the first time he is informed that it was BW forces that took out the Achilles "last week", there is no reason to believe that he knew of the other BW-Confed encounters that had taken place during that time, especially since Tolwyn had plenty of reasons not to inform him about them (since Confed had been the aggressor in pretty much all of them).
Furthermore, it would not make sense for Paladin and the Assembly to be under the impression that the Border Worlds have no active service ships (which is what they'd have to think, in order to find such a revelation shocking enough to declare war), because even Blair (who, having spent the last few years on an isolated farm, is probably not too well informed in such issues) believes that the Border Worlds have a strong military (impossible without active service ships).
Ladiesman^
Spaceman
Um....LOAF's explanation is much simpler than that.....and makes sense....
Battler Hawke
Spaceman
What if the UBW gave it to the confed to use as a trainer in exchange for some of it's people trained at confed training grounds. it's good pr all around and the bl ships can be return using it as a cover.
US air forces over the past century. the U.S air force is started around 1950 that makes it 52 years old. if your talking U.S army air corp that goes back to the mid-late 30's
US air forces over the past century. the U.S air force is started around 1950 that makes it 52 years old. if your talking U.S army air corp that goes back to the mid-late 30's
Ladiesman^
Spaceman
What does that have to do with anything? But anyway, the USAAF was around during WWI...
Battler Hawke
Spaceman
earlier posting same thread USAAF. did not exist that was US Army air corp. that was mostly downsized after the was. it used mostly enlgish and french planes.
The air arm of the US military was originally the US Army Air Corp, which was a branch of the army. It remained that way until after WW2, when the Air Corp broke away and became its own seperate branch - the US Air Force.
According to the agreement hammered out during the break up, the Army would no longer be allowed to operate any fixed wing aircraft, which is why the army operates helicopters, while the air force operates A-10s.
Ladiesman^
Spaceman
Wait a sec.....I know for a fact it was called the "US Army Air Force" during WWII...i'm not disputing if it was called the "US Army Air Corps." during WWI (which, your probably right...i'm not by far a military expert)
Battler Hawke
Spaceman
it was called the US army air corp during ww2 my father was in the army during the air corp becoming the air force in1949-5? the cange look place. by act of congress.