If you had to fly a fighter from Wc2

[GreyViper]

The thing that I loved in Sabre was adaptability, it was the jack of all trades fighter. Also about Morningstar only thing that made it "super" was the Mace without it was a good fighter, not great but good. Reason it wasnt super was because it didnt have neither heavy shield or the heavy armor. In honesty if I could pick from two fighters from Arrow or Morningstar id go with Arrow.
And here is another strange thing I just got my hands on "Price of Freedom" novel, why is it that Sabres and Rapiers are out classed against Hellcats? As I recall Hellcats werent that tough I mean if you could take them down with quad lasers then the guns UBW fighters used could deal with them. Unless the shield on WC2 era fighters were soooo weak and shields on WC3 fighters better. In most WC games even a light fighter could take down heavy fighter(ok not in Armada) all you had have was skill.

 

[Drizzt Do Urden]

That's what I loved about the Sabre as well "jack of all trades" you could take on pretty much any type mission with the sabre, and there was a very good chance that you'd be coming home alive.

 

[Kavok]

I'm plugging for the Epee. Small silhouette, big guns and fast. Get in, drop some missiles, blast your guns then run. Good visibility from the cockpit too.

 

[ChrisReid]

Unless the shield on WC2 era fighters were soooo weak and shields on WC3 fighters better. In most WC games even a light fighter could take down heavy fighter(ok not in Armada) all you had have was skill.

An important thing to understand is that there is no "WC2 era" or "WC3 era" in this context. Both fighters were coexisting in the "WC4 era" in this case. All of these ships coexisted for decades, and no airframe had inherently weaker or superior shields. Shield technology advanced over the years, and different models of fighters had different shield strengths at different times.

And here is another strange thing I just got my hands on "Price of Freedom" novel, why is it that Sabres and Rapiers are out classed against Hellcats? As I recall Hellcats werent that tough I mean if you could take them down with quad lasers then the guns UBW fighters used could deal with them.

There were many variants of Rapiers and Sabres that carried different assortments of offenses and defenses. The particular Hellcats in question just outclasses the old Sabres and Rapiers in use in that particular situation. The fact that the player character could destroy something with a quad-laser ship is also irrelevant. Your single- or dual-laser Tarsus could beat anything in Privateer if you were good enough.

If it helps anyone further, Arena demonstrates this concept beautifully. The Rapier "Blade" may be outclassed by the "WC3 Era" Hellcat, but the Rapier "Cavalier" blows the "WC3" Hellcat out of the water. More than just plausible, this is an extremely common and pervasive concept throughout Wing Commander. When you hear of a ship being used somewhere, do not assume it is similar to the same airframe ship that you knew at a different time and place (or even the same time and place!).

 

[cff]

Regarding the WC4 BW ships one should also note that according to the novel they should suck much more. I guess they were beefed up quite some (to in universe illogical degrees) with regards to game balancing.

 

[GreyViper]

An important thing to understand is that there is no "WC2 era" or "WC3 era" in this context. Both fighters were coexisting in the "WC4 era" in this case. All of these ships coexisted for decades, and no airframe had inherently weaker or superior shields. Shield technology advanced over the years, and different models of fighters had different shield strengths at different times.

Yes I remember that, but you got to wonder the drastic changes in armor and shield values. I guess by "WC2 era" I mean the armor/shield values used in WC2 are around something like this Front Shield 10 cm & Front Armor 16 cm. And in "WC3 era" Front Shield 250 cm & Front Armor 100 cm. Unless you asume that values in WC2 in WC3-4 get 0 to end 10cm would become 100cm and 16 cm to 160 cm?

 

[Ricochet]

Use your superior shields to your advantage

You were joking, right?

The Crossbow has the same armor and shields as the Broadsword--it just feels weaker because you are going up against Gothris and Sabres instead of the usual Jalkethis and Grikaths that you normally fight in a Broadsword.

Good point. People often forget the mission balance. I like epee more than sabre (although i don;t really like either), but if you look at what you're flying against in those epee missions....

"Just a thought while browsing this thread - the Crossbow is actually much, much less massive than the Broadsword - 40 tonnes to 100 tonnes. If it were an actual military aircraft, that alone would be enough of an incredible improvement in statistics..."

I always had a softspot for crossbow. Like Broadsword, only better

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

(...) Also about Morningstar only thing that made it "super" was the Mace without it was a good fighter, not great but good. Reason it wasnt super was because it didnt have neither heavy shield or the heavy armor. In honesty if I could pick from two fighters from Arrow or Morningstar id go with Arrow.
(...)

The Morningstar has pretty thick shields and armour - in fact, she has better defenses than the Broadsword. And 3 particle cannons - that's pretty super in my book for the WC2 area.

I got mine for $9 with shipping. I was pretty happy.

I can imagine. Problem is, when I get mine: do I unseal it?

 

[Ijuin]

Regarding the WC4 BW ships one should also note that according to the novel they should suck much more. I guess they were beefed up quite some (to in universe illogical degrees) with regards to game balancing.

Well, we know that in the game the Stormfire cannons were Pliers' doing, and probably the Scattergun as well. Probably also very few fighters/bombers had the leech guns (none of of the Intrepid's craft did in the novel--it was only mentioned in reference to the Speradon raid which the Intrepid did not participate in). So, lose all of the special guns (which NPC's never use either), as well as the Leech missiles.

This leaves you with a Banshee that has weaker weapons and slightly less speed than the Arrow, a Vindicator that has the speed and protection of the Thunderbolt with half the gun power and an extra pair of torpedoes, and an Avenger that is a smidgen faster and more agile than the Longbow but with weaker guns, half the missiles, and a weaker turret. All-around, the BW craft come out as inferior to the Confed ones when stripped of their special weapons, although not debilitatingly inferior.

The Morningstar has pretty thick shields and armour - in fact, she has better defenses than the Broadsword. And 3 particle cannons - that's pretty super in my book for the WC2 area.

IIRC, the Morningstar had twice the protection of the Sabre, giving it 160 shields (vs. the Sabre's 80 and the Broadsword's 500). I am using the in-game units from the ship editor program.

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

I only have the manual stats, so I was comparing these. I would be most interested in seeing the actual in-game stats though. But anyway, the Morningstar's protection was rather good.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Well, we know that in the game the Stormfire cannons were Pliers' doing, and probably the Scattergun as well.

Pliers invented the Scatter Gun - and gave the "prototype" to Blair.

 

[Oggy]

hehe, good old pliers and his crazy prototype guns & missles.

I got the impression from the game that the stormfire was pulled off a destroyed Pirate Fighter and that it was quite old because one Pliers lines was "old technology, but damn effective, they'd be using them today if the range wasn't so short"

I would go with the Rapier II, nice to see a familiar fighter (upgraded) make a return
Or possibly the Morningstar for its tactical nuclear warhead craziness

 

[Drizzt Do Urden]

yeah I still can't believe that they actually gave Maniac a nuke to play with that just sounds like bad judgement to me

 

[mustanger]

I think another important thing to remember about the WC4 novel is that the BW fighters were not brand new off of the assembly line. They were old, battle damaged, and probably did not take advantage of the upgrades available to the Confed models. You may also recall that Blair notices that the Lexington is loaded with brand new fighters. His Arrow had not even had the weapons fired when he started flying it. (or at least they weren't fired much... I can't quite remember)

 

[MjavTheGray]

Broadsword a coffin.
Epee the coffin again.
Rapier... Ewwww... :-/ Daddy, may I choose Scimitar? No? A Hornet, maybe? No? The old one Rapier - of WC1? Nope? Okay, I'll fly it. But know I despice it.
Sabre? Well... I'll fly it. Good enough ship.
Ferret - my choice always. Even if it is a torpedo attack - just send me to cover the Broads.

 

[MjavTheGray]

In theory, yes. However from my experience (in Armada) even real People never mention to stay out of the range of a bomber. And once they are too close its often bye bye.

You've forgotten one most important fact - Broadsword has no afterburn, while Armada's Banshee has it. There's a great differenc e between the target which can't burn at all, and the one which can burn, just is more clumsy than you are.

And when enemy has burned all the fuel out - it happened when Mjav was hunting one very nasty Banshee with a Dralthi (maybe it was a bad day for me, but for a long time I just couldn't hit it - it was burning all the time) - and the terran's fuel is gone, and he's again one big nice target for my practice.

Cut the speed to 200, and bite it from the distance, always staying at rear.

So - if we hunt a Broad with Drakhri - we do the very same one thing. And as Talwyn (and all of his lackeys) was always one poor excuse for a commander, sending broads without cover - I am more than sure that thousands of terran pilots died without even a chance of completing the mission.

WC2 is easy enough for the only reason of poor AI. Were those Drakhris you meet when going for a data pod (mission or two before Mariko dies) a bit smarter - no player (no Blair) would survive. Of that I am sure.

 

[Farbourne]

I've commented on this in other threads, but I always felt like the Broadsword and the Epee had the wrong armaments. A fighter that is going to snipe at range should have strong shields (since the opponent will generally be sniping back) and isn't hurt by a lack of maneuverability since it doesn't have to dogfight as much (in fact, less maneuverability actually makes it a better sniper's platform since the ship is more stable and easier to finely adjust your aim). Also, a slow speed is OK since you want to maximize the time on target before you close to close range. In other words, a bomber would make a great ranged sniping platform, if only it had long range guns. Yet we get the Broadsword, with short range mass drivers, and the crossbow, which adds shorter range neutrons. By the time you're in mass driver range, you get off one or maybe two shots at a fast light fighter before it whips around and gets on your tail, and it takes a while before you can get him off.

On the other hand, a fast, maneuverable, lightly armored fighter needs to rely on its speed and maneuverability to keep it alive, which means twisting and weaving whenever the enemy has his sights on you--in other words, anytime you're closing on the opponent. Weapon range is less important, especially when facing a heavier fighter with long range weapons, because you're too busy dodging and shelton sliding until you get close enough so that he can no longer track you. When you get in close, the safest place to be is on the opponents tail, and while there you need to be constantly maneuvering to avoid the fire of his turrets (if he's a bomber), and his wingmen. Which means you need a weapon that fires quickly and yet does decent damage since you don't have time for precision shooting, and can't afford to fly straight enough to subject him to sustained fire. In other words, you really want a mass driver (or preferably, many mass drivers). Yet we get the Epee with long range, slow firing particles.

That's the reason why I always loved the Ferret the best in WC2. Use its speed to close quickly, dancing around enemy fire, then whip around onto the opponents tail and pour mass driver fire in on him till he's dead, then use your speed to disengage if necessary to recharge. Repeat until all bad guys are dead. And it's so small and fast that the cats can't hit it...when I died in a ferret, it was usually because I wasn't careful and rammed the enemy.