Identity Overlay? Sure…

[Delance]

Did anyone ever consider the possibility that what truly happened is that Thrakkath somehow offered Hobbes a pardon for his “crimes” in exchange for his return? Confed was losing the war, and Hobbes was no fool. In the game, if Hobbes survives Blair, he is not punished by his previous crimes against the Kilrathi.

Perhaps, if the cats were losing the war, overlay or not Hobbes would not go for Thrakkath. The true Hobbes might be different but he’s not an idiot. That whole “Kilrathi not betray” thing is hot air, unless Thrakkath did this experiment with the entire population of Ghora Khar and gave up his stealth fighters willingly just to keep Blair out of the picture. Not to mention the fact that most of Thrakkath’s relatives tried to kill him.

After all… This whole identity overlay sounds much better than “Oh, my friend, we being defeated and I don’t want to lose. Besides, everyone here treats me like I’m a traitor anyway. Next time I see ya, I’m going to put an energy bolt on your head. But since I can’t fly stupid cat ships, I’ll still be flying on the very thunderbolt I used to escape, for old times sake. Sure, it would be inviting friendly fire using a confed ship right in the middle of the Kilrathi fleet, but I’m just an eccentric old english speaking cat.”

Last thought. Hobbes says he never truly met the true Ralgha until Thrakkath said the trigger. Now, wait a minute. If he is speaking as the true Ralgha, he was himself before the experiment; if he never met the true Ralgha, he should be talking as the old Hobbes.

 

[Aries]

Originally posted by Delance
Did anyone ever consider the possibility that what truly happened is that Thrakkath somehow offered Hobbes a pardon for his “crimes” in exchange for his return? Confed was losing the war, and Hobbes was no fool. In the game, if Hobbes survives Blair, he is not punished by his previous crimes against the Kilrathi.

well, no because what happens is that Thrakhath did an identity overlay experimant with Ralgha. and Hobbes isn't punished for his crimes cause he was acting under Thrakhaths orders, and anyway, if you look at the 'official' history, Blair goes after Hobbes and kills him, so hobbes isn't supposed to get back to kilrah

Perhaps, if the cats were losing the war, overlay or not Hobbes would not go for Thrakkath. The true Hobbes might be different but he’s not an idiot. That whole “Kilrathi not betray” thing is hot air, unless Thrakkath did this experiment with the entire population of Ghora Khar and gave up his stealth fighters willingly just to keep Blair out of the picture. Not to mention the fact that most of Thrakkath’s relatives tried to kill him.

the 'Kilrathi do not betray' was a generalization, because hobbes admitted he was betraying blair.

After all… This whole identity overlay sounds much better than “Oh, my friend, we being defeated and I don’t want to lose. Besides, everyone here treats me like I’m a traitor anyway. Next time I see ya, I’m going to put an energy bolt on your head. But since I can’t fly stupid cat ships, I’ll still be flying on the very thunderbolt I used to escape, for old times sake. Sure, it would be inviting friendly fire using a confed ship right in the middle of the Kilrathi fleet, but I’m just an eccentric old english speaking cat.”

of course it sounds better cause it's true

Last thought. Hobbes says he never truly met the true Ralgha until Thrakkath said the trigger. Now, wait a minute. If he is speaking as the true Ralgha, he was himself before the experiment; if he never met the true Ralgha, he should be talking as the old Hobbes.

what is going on is he is saying hobbes never met Ralgha until thrakhath said the trigger.

 

[BattleDog]

It always bugged me too.

If Kilrathi are honerable then Hobbes should stick with Confed. Think about it, the Kilrathi staged an armastice as a way of buying time, they dropped Stronium90 on several planets. Hobbes is also loyal to Blair. So if Kilrathi do not betray then he should not betray Blair.

 

[Aries]

Originally posted by BattleDog
Think about it, the Kilrathi staged an armastice as a way of buying time, they dropped Stronium90 on several planets.

IIRC, Kirha said in fleet action that by accepting the armastice, humans had lost whatever respect the kilrathi had for them. that indicated to me that the cats thought that we were no longer honorable, and therefore, no longer worthy of being treated with honor.

 

[Delance]

What is plain stupid, because they accepted the armistice too. So not only they are without honor to their own terms, but they betray. They don’t honor their agreements… Everything the Kilrathi say about “honor” is utter BS.

About Hobbes, well, he said he had "no choice" once the trigger was said. Yeah, right. He just took an opportunity to go to the winning side. Had the Kilrathi be losing the war, he probably would re-think changing sides, even after the trigger.

The major factor, I think, was that Confed was planning to nuke Kilrath. On WC2 Hobbes wanted to remove the Emperor and the Prince... Not commit genocide against his own people.

 

[Dominator]

The Kilrathi empire resemble Japan - from wwII and earlier times - if you study their history (especially XV - XVI century) You will see that honor and betrayal are not totally opposite terms for them. And I have another interpretation of hobbes betrayal - he swore fealty to Thrakath in first place and - if I understand Kilrathi culture correctly - by following his orders he never betrayed him or the kilrathi. In some way he betrayed Blair but his loyalty to Thrakath was superior (again look at japan culture).

 

[Aries]

Originally posted by Delance
What is plain stupid, because they accepted the armistice too. So not only they are without honor to their own terms, but they betray. They don’t honor their agreements… Everything the Kilrathi say about “honor” is utter BS.

try looking at it from the kilrathi perspective.... an honorable enemy loses his honor by accepting an honorless agreement. since the agreement is honorless, do you abide by that agreement, bringing dishonor to your name and family?

About Hobbes, well, he said he had "no choice" once the trigger was said. Yeah, right. He just took an opportunity to go to the winning side. Had the Kilrathi be losing the war, he probably would re-think changing sides, even after the trigger.

Ralgha was loyal to the Kilrathi. it didn't matter that the cats were winning. If they weren't, he would have done the same thing.

The major factor, I think, was that Confed was planning to nuke Kilrath. On WC2 Hobbes wanted to remove the Emperor and the Prince... Not commit genocide against his own people.

why can't you accept that Ralgha had an identity overlay and as such, that personality was loyal to confed, but the true personality was loyal to the kilrathi?

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Dominator
The Kilrathi empire resemble Japan

On WC3, yes. Not so much on WC1 and WC2. Take Ghora Khar, for example. The Kilrathi on WC3 are very different than the ones from the previous games. That could be explained because it was a different phase of the war.

On WC2, it was Terran Confederation vs Empire of Kilrath. There were Kilrathi citizens on Confed, and humans fighting for the Kirlathi - the mandarins. On WC3, it was a racial thing: Humans vs Kilrathi. Hence, Hobbes didn't fit the equation...

When Blair lands from the first mission, he tells Hobbes "Now you're back where you belong". Check Hobbe's face. He's thinking. Way before any trigger.

Sure, it's obvious Blair meant the cockpit, but there were other meanings.

Originally posted by Aries
try looking at it from the kilrathi perspective.... an honorable enemy loses his honor by accepting an honorless agreement.

The Kilrathi perspective? It was just a dirty trick that only animals without the slightest concept of honor could do. The Kilrathi lost respect for mankind because mankind was so stupid to believe Kilrathi under the Emperor and Thrakkath could co-exist. It have nothing to do with honor. You know, Hobbes, the “implanted” one, was right... There could be no end to the war before the Emperor and Thrakkath were killed.

Ralgha was loyal to the Kilrathi. it didn't matter that the cats were winning. If they weren't, he would have done the same thing.

There's no way you can know that. Hobbes said he had no option, but you can't really trust someone who is a traitor two times, can you? It was the logical thing for Hobbes to do, of course...

why can't you accept that Ralgha had an identity overlay and as such, that personality was loyal to confed, but the true personality was loyal to the kilrathi?

I'm exploring the issue. That approach is somewhat simplistic. So Hobbes love for that human (Downtown, I think) that he loved as a sun, was completely false? Was it implanted by Thrakkath? No, it wasn't. Even in the end, Hobbes feelings for Blair were true. Respect. Admiration. So at least in part his former self was retained when he talked to Blair.

On a different set of circumstances, different result could happen. Lots of Kilrathi wanted to kill Thrakkath, for lots of different reasons; Hobbes was not the only one.

 

[Edfilho]

Well... In ALL theses debates, people seem to forget that the apparent discrepancies between games X and Y or Book A or B exist due to the fact that they often are written by different people.

Chris Roberts and team didn't have the kilrathi as well developed on WC1 as they did in subsequent games... Forstchen viewed both the Kilrathi and the heroes of the confederation in a way that was different form the way the people who wrote tha games did. He even changed the tech...

Of course, the funniest of all is how people here stubornly affirm that everything fit seamlessly. Even in the world's "real" History, facts are quite often verey inconsistently registered by each country or even each historian. Important facts, like the invention of the airplane, are not the same around the world, or the winning of the WW2, for instance.

It's a fictional universe, worked on by many different people. Obviously, there are just as many diverse views. And it's not even particularly very well written fiction. Forstchen is a VERY limited writter. His "Prophet of Ice" series of books are a shameless rip-off of Dune. Only with ice instead of sand. He's very heavy handed, his weird far right-wing ideology permeates his writting far too much and he's quite repetitive.

From an artistic point of view, the games are definitely the best works in the WC universe, particularly 3 and 4. it's th pinnacle of WC fiction. you have good underlying themes, decent character development, inteligent plot solutions. The movie is bad and the books are so-so.

Concerning Japan: It wasn't really ruled by the Emperor until the late 19th century. It was quite different until the Meiji age. The country was ruled by the Shogun, and was full of strife and factions.

 

[WildWeasel]

Originally posted by Edfilho
Of course, the funniest of all is how people here stubornly affirm that everything fit seamlessly.

The only thing funnier is how some people foolishly claim that there are elements of Wing Commander that can't be made to fit with the rest.

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by WildWeasel
The only thing funnier is how some people foolishly claim that there are elements of Wing Commander that can't be made to fit with the rest.

It's far more foolish to think element can be made to fit. They either fit, or don't. Just like the TCS Iason and the CD Iason. You can be smart and treat both as different events.

Besides, Ed is right about different views. It's quite clear that the different tones on different mediums are part of this. So if a given author likes character X and dislikes character Y, he’ll write in a way where character X looks good and character Y is a dick. When lots of different authors write about the same characters and, even worse, during the same series of events, a lot of subtle and not so subtle contrasts will show up. It actually makes a very interesting experience to read both. But it is not something that fit seamlessly together. It would work on a timeline, or encyclopedia.

Like the Kilrathi, who began liking asymmetric ships and structures on WC3. If someone were to remake WC1/2 it would be cool to have some asymmetrical graltha. It would be impossible to do this on WC1 due to the whole sprite engine. Except, perhaps, for the Jalthi, which has asymmetrical guns...

 

[Edfilho]

Originally posted by WildWeasel
The only thing funnier is how some people foolishly claim that there are elements of Wing Commander that can't be made to fit with the rest.

Like I would be so foolish as to answer such a blatant display of radicalism.

 

[Marcml30]

Originally posted by WildWeasel
… that can't be made to fit with the rest.

Blair was Christ reborn – can be made to fit with the rest.
Blair was the anti-Christ – can be made to fit with the rest.
Tolwyn was a giant mutated bunny rabbit – can be made to fit with the rest.
Angel was the incarnation of the Venus, ah hell, why not Zeus himself? – can be made to fit with the rest.

 

[Edfilho]

Originally posted by Delance
It's far more foolish to think element can be made to fit. They either fit, or don't. Just like the TCS Iason and the CD Iason. You can be smart and treat both as different events.

Besides, Ed is right about different views. It's quite clear that the different tones on different mediums are part of this. So if a given author likes character X and dislikes character Y, he’ll write in a way where character X looks good and character Y is a dick. When lots of different authors write about the same characters and, even worse, during the same series of events, a lot of subtle and not so subtle contrasts will show up. It actually makes a very interesting experience to read both. But it is not something that fit seamlessly together. It would work on a timeline, or encyclopedia.

Like the Kilrathi, who began liking asymmetric ships and structures on WC3. If someone were to remake WC1/2 it would be cool to have some asymmetrical graltha. It would be impossible to do this on WC1 due to the whole sprite engine. Except, perhaps, for the Jalthi, which has asymmetrical guns...

It is always interesting to compare how the ship design changed radically due to the game engine technology advancement. I do not try to explain it inside the universe, I do not think it is even necessary.

Of course anyone can discard any part fo the WCU they want. It's a fictional universe. It's made by people. Different people. Working on different teams, sometimes in different companies. It's not real. It's not consistent.

I really agree with what LOAF wrote in the timeline afterword. It's not badly inconsistent, but it's far from perfectly fitting.

I do not like Forstchen's style, ideology (which he fills the books with) nor his choices for the series' plot. I do not agree with the way he portrays Tolwyn or Blair. I don't think he's even close to being a good writer. I'd rather someone else wrote those books. And I am entitled to those opinions and no one can debase me for that.

I'm not flaming or trolling the boards with shit like "WC IS DAED YUO L000s3rs". I really like WC and have been playing it for years. I just don't think anything related to it is automatically perfect and shinning.

For instance, personally, as someone who's interested in literature and cinema as arts, I see the movie as really weak, regardless of agreeing (or not) with its place in the WCU. I also think those rapiers are REALLY ugly...

I'll post more on my opinions later.

 

[Ghost]

Originally posted by Marcml30
Blair was Christ reborn – can be made to fit with the rest.
Blair was the anti-Christ – can be made to fit with the rest.
Tolwyn was a giant mutated bunny rabbit – can be made to fit with the rest.
Angel was the incarnation of the Venus, ah hell, why not Zeus himself? – can be made to fit with the rest.

That is blatantly stupid, maybe can be made to fit with you.

 

[Marcml30]

Oops, sorry if I offended anyone’s Christian ideals. I was just trying to make a point that ANYTHING can be made to fit no matter how inane. Sorry if you missed that.

 

[BattleDog]

I still reckon it sucked that Hobbes was the Traitor.

On another point, if there are Kilrathi Planets in Confed then does that mean there are Kilrathi in the TCN.

 

[Delance]

To further explain why Hobbes reasons are not that simple, allow me to quote from WC3:

"No one... ever... will truly understand what I did." - Hobbes

 

[WildWeasel]

Originally posted by Delance
It's far more foolish to think element can be made to fit. They either fit, or don't. Just like the TCS Iason and the CD Iason. You can be smart and treat both as different events.

That's actually an example of making two seemingly contradictory items fit into one timeline, though. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by Edfilho
Like I would be so foolish as to answer such a blatant display of radicalism.

It's fairly commonplace radicalism, then.

 

[Edfilho]

Originally posted by WildWeasel

It's fairly commonplace radicalism, then.

Agreed. =)
Actually, your attitude was radical, not necessarily your opinion. I was refering to the use of the word "foolish". Like in FOOLISH HEATHEN.