The use of the word 'law' for some historic theories is misleading, at best. Physical 'laws' are, by current nomenclature, theories. They're only referred to as laws for historic reasons. Also, general theories could quite easily be always true... It's just that proving them to be so is usually practically impossible.Originally posted by T8H3X11
Oh contrare. If a scientific theory was always true it wouldn't be called a theory, but a law.
He thought it was an interesting thing to ponder, so he pursued it, studied it, and published a book on the subject. I'm not sure how that has anything to do with the validity of something... If you don't think something's interesting, why would you study it? Anyway, it's not like the currently accepted theories reguarding evolution are the same as Darwin's. They've evolved over the years. Darwin didn't even have the concepts of genetic inheritence available to him that were later observed by Mendel.No, it was Charles Darwin, who didn't discover it it...first of all because it isn't true because God created everything in 6 day's and on the 7th rested, second of all he just thought it was an interesting thing to ponder.
Yeah, that's a great way to convince people you're right.Jesus Christ is the only way my friends. All who do not follow him will perish eternally in the Lake of Fire (Hell).
I may be somewhat biased, as it mirrors my own thoughts, but I think this was rather well put.Originally posted by Quarto
I have nothing against Darwin's theory of evolution. In fact, it makes a lot more sense to me than the world being created in seven days. What bothers me is when people are arrogant and fanatical enough to claim that creation by God couldn't be true because God cannot exist. In other words, it's not Napoleon's views that I object to, it's the way he presents them and the way he insists that everything else is wrong simply because he doesn't believe in it.
Hrm... if you actually believe that nobody accepts evolution because that's what many people believe you are probably rather mistaken. Do you really think a large number of people have gone off and examined evidence for themselves? I've looked at the subject at various times and I've only taken cursory looks at a very few second hand examples of evidence. I have to assume that since many people more knowledgeable than I in the subject, following methods that I understand to be at least somewhat reliable, agree that it is the best theory currently available it is at least somewhat valid. I've thought about it quite a bit more than many other people, who will just assume it's correct because they were told so in school and other people they know think it's right.Originally posted by Napoleon
NO, no one accepts evolution because thats what everyone else does it and if they do they are sad pathetic creatures. Evolution is accepted because it has a body of evidence to support it that would fill several university libraries, and then some. Because it has the combined observations of the entirety of many different disciplines of science to support it. Because it has been shown to have such a high probability of being correct in some form as it is illogical and silly not to accept it.
The following has absolutely nothing to do with the content of your edited post, as I have no idea what was in it, it has to do with the rules of this Chat Zone, which you will observe. If you do not, you will be asked to leave.Originally posted by Napoleon
I also take great offence at the lunacy of your moderation.
As Quarto is a moderator in this forum, his reading of the rules is to be considered correct unless someone with greater authority says otherwise. Since his reading is automatically correct, it is obviously not lunacy. If you have a problem with the way he's interpreted the rules then you're free to appeal to the whole of the Chat Zone administration at email@example.com . The quality, or lack thereof, of moderation is not to be discussed on the Chat Zone itself.1) The word of an administrator or moderator, in reference to the rules of this chat zone, is final. Also, if you think another user is breaking the rules, do _not_ flame or harass him/her. Let the moderators do their job.
I don't think you understand what logic actually is. Nearly anything can be logically shown, assuming one uses the correct premises as the basis of the chain of logic. It's rather easy to show that creation is logical when your premises is that God exists and the Bible is God's word.Creationism cannot be backed by logic, and thus far hasnt been backed by any evidence. The only way for it to be accepted by anyone is to admit that it isnt logical, that faith isnt logic. You can have faith that the creation story is true only by accepting your illogic and saying that you admit that your beliefs arent reasonable, arent logical, but that that doesnt matter because you believe it.
It obviously can be argued with, as I just did. I'm also obviously not justifying my own beliefs, as the beliefs of creationists are not my beliefs.This cannot be argued with and doesnt need to be, because first off it isnt an argument that works in any form of intellectual debate, but it is one that works to justify your own beliefs.
There never was a requirement for a diety, though. Evolution doesn't answer all the questions in the universe, there will always be questions which science will not yet be able to provide satisfactory theories for which a God appears to be the only possible solution to some. Where the everything originally came from, I suspect, will always be one of these.Originally posted by t.c.cgi
I didn't say evolution directly denies God, but that it allows for one to do it. There is no requirement for any diety, and thus one does not have to believe in one.
Hrm... I'm unsure how joining a discussion on a board meant for discussion is somehow a bad thing for me to do... How is what I did, in responding to a post, butting in, but you joining the thread quite a ways into it, not butting in?Originally posted by Kalfor
Now, I see at once again, you but into a discussion not only claiming to hold the truth ("I explained what theory is! You are all wrong!"), but also including grammah and writing form into your posts as if they were more important than the contents of the post itself.
As opposed to this post, which completely ignores nearly everything I said. Good job.This tends to be the reasoning of those who dont know a clear point to bring up in a proper discussion
That is, of course, entirely up to you. However, I must take offense with the implication that I'm somehow being childish. I never at any point implied that your arguments were wrong because of the way you used language.and since it looks like you are not capable of an adult discussion without bringing up points like this, I wont bother anymore
Thank you for all your kindness in allowing me to keep my personal beliefs... Without your consent I'd be required to throw them out the window and take on the beliefs of... let's say... WildWeasel. Then where would we be? I'm not quite sure what you meant to say by opening this paragraph like that, but it came across to me as holier-than-thou, patronizing, arrogant tripe.So, go ahead, hold your own personal truth, but please try to grow up a bit. It may help on your future relations with the outside world
I dunno. My grandmother was from Romania and a hero he aint had been for her. It was more kinda the lines I said, a especially brutal tyrant. I think he wasn't very kind to the own people either...Originally posted by Kalfor
just a note on Cff`s mention of dracula
Vlad Tepes (that was his name) is actually a great romanian hero
he have defended the region against the turks and germanics several times
Now that would be an interesting prove. I could offer a classic that proves that god cannot be almighty in fact it shows that nothing can be almighty, but denial of his existance... Hmmm...Originally posted by Quarto
Tell you what, let's try this another way. You've challenged them to disprove evolution. Well, here's a challenge for you - I want to see you disprove the existence of God.
I don't recall that hell was mentioned in the bible?
Jesus Christ is the only way my friends. All who do not follow him will perish eternally in the Lake of Fire (Hell).
Well for one, the premises are the problem. You know the theory of the real numbers? Now while mathematics can prove everything here originating from 10 axioms or so, they actually do _NOT_ claim that these numbers represent our real world numbers.Originally posted by TC
I don't think you understand what logic actually is. Nearly anything can be logically shown, assuming one uses the correct premises as the basis of the chain of logic.
I'll have to conceed that, as it was a really really stupid thing to say. I have very little beyond a passing knowledge of logic and I should still know better than to say that. My brain was thinking in the context of arguments one would have in the Chat Zone, as opposed to Turing's halting problem and things of that sort. My brain also skipped over things like self-contradictory statements.Originally posted by cff
Also note that "Nearly anything can be logically shown" is about as wrong as it can be. It can be shown that for all, but the most simple situations automatic prove cannot be done. You cannot even predict if something can be logical derived or not. As natural and powerful logic seems to be it got serious limits.
--The first Isaiah passage you cite is Isaiah's prophecy concerning Babylon's coming destruction, both in the short-term sense (when the Medo-Persians conquered them) and the longer term sense in the End Times. The second passage is similar, only it is more focused on Babylon's End Times destruction. Neither of these have anything to do with Israel being told by God to do this stuff to other people. The Israelis weren't ordered to do this by God, they were simply told what some OTHER nation was going to do to Israel's oppressors in times future. And although the "victims" in the passages above were nonbelievers, these 'niceties' (as you called them) weren't visited upon them because of their unbelief. They were to be a judgment of God upon Babylon for the extreme cruelty they showed Israel during/after the conquest & deportation of Israel.Originally posted by cff
...Try the book of the prophet Isaiah:
13:15-18: Every one that is found shall be thrust through....Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.
49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob...
...How does "not having found it yet" nullify a theory?
...You surely never heared of someone being buried alive?! I mean at a time people here have gone as far as to install bells onto the grave and have the cord extend into the casket so if they get buried alive they have some way of alarming. When medicine wasn't advanced as far this happened rather often. Actually IIRC: less then a year ago someone was declared dead _HERE_ and after some days in the morgue he awaked...
...How unlikely would it be that the very roman soldier that should watch the grave was a sympathisant?
--Your ignorance is showing. There was a couple of TV shows I've seen over the years ("In Search Of", "Nova", shows like that--wish I could remember the exact names) wherein it was illustrated just how huge a cargo capacity Noah's ark actually had, as per the original specs given him by God. Further, what you call "tar" the Bible refers to as "pitch". It is simply a plant resin from trees (basically, sap), and thus is not a petroleum derivative at all. From all the trees that had to be felled to contruct the ark, Noah had an abundant supply of it, and had 100 years and 7 other people to help him gather/apply it. Finally, even your own own precious theory of evolution would allow for there being a lesser diversity of animal life (fewer species, and thus fewer animals that needed boarding in the ark) than exists now. As such, the ark being a suitable vessel to do the prescribed job is quite a bit more likely than you are obviously willing to admit.Originally posted by Napoleon
...Fact is it is simply and totally impossible for the genesis flood to have happened. To begin with there is no way for all the living things to have been stored on a boat of any size made by a man. In order to make one big enough to carry enough food for all those animals to eat, etc the boat would be so large that it would leak. Even in the 19th century wooden ships couldnt be any larger than around 350 ft long because otherwise they took on too much water, reverse that by about 4000 years and the fact that there is no tar to help out (since all the oil would have had to have been made in the flood).
...simply speaking no man can be randomly created out of dust. Also the genetic diversity from 1 male and one female reproducing would cause such horible symptoms of inbreeding among humans after a few years that we would most probably have died out.
...Give examples of these aspects of the bible that have been shown to be true. that are supposedly supported. I highly doubt that anything of significance has been found to be true, significance to me is purely the aspects of the bible that violate the physical and biological laws by which life and the universe are run.
...Your point about evolution being a theory demonstrates your sheer ignorance as to the way science and intellectual pursuits work. Basically the only field where ANYTHING can be proven is mathematics, nothing is concrete in science, ever. Nothing can ever be proven, there is always doubt...
I realize that's correct, but still the vast majority of it that you see here in the US is by those groups. I have even done something similar to that myself on one occasion at my former church. The bottom line though, is this: Whether or not you like it or think it should be allowed, all you need do is just not answer the door. Quite simple. I mean, all sorts of people send us junk mail, and yet few of us rail to the Post Office about it; we simply toss it in the trash/recycling bin. Problem solved. All I'm saying is that you might want to look at "door to door" evangelizing/proselytizing the same way: It's not your cup of tea, so just don't drink it..Originally posted by Kalfor
...Preacher, about door to door thing
its not because you dont see it over there (Im guessing USA, but I might be wrong) that it doesnt happen in other places. My point refers to that. I live in brazil, and I lived in portugal (and the USA for a short period). In south america and more recently on some european countries, there was been this type of thing by christians. its a fact, in which I based my comment. I am sorry I didnt expecify it
--I also was raised a Catholic, but what TWO different creation stories are you referrin' to?... Unless you can cite the passages referred to and prove them, your argument that it shouldn't be accepted (presumably because the two stories conflict at some point?...) falls flat.Originally posted by Meson
...As a catholic, I am aware of the two Creation stories in teh bible... It is written in code so that it wouldn't get burned by the Romans, so you have to translated it out of the code to read it. Since there are two very different Creation stories, we can fairly sure that what was written shouldn't be accepted as fact, as teh writers themselves didn't know.
Well, let's see: King David was a shepard, Moses became a shepard later in life, a couple of the minor prophets were shepards also. As to slaves, Daniel became one (well, sorta) after the Babylonian exile. I can't think of any others offhand. The really neat thing, though, is that a significant number of the biblical writers were fairly ordinary men, or even "lowlifes" (read: slaves & shepards), and yet the book they wrote has changed the world! (see Acts 4:13-20)Originally posted by Ghost
I like to know which ones
The word "Hell" occurs numerous times in the Bible, mostly (if not entirely) in the New Testament. You are correct in saying that hell is what you create for yourself. From the Christian view, hell (at its most basic) is the place reserved for those who refused to acknowledge and worship Christ while they had the chance here on earth. Whether it is a physical place or not is irrelevant; the point is, hell is eternal separation from God (read Luke 16:27-31 for an illustration of this). Since nearly every human has the ability to make this choice (the few exceptions being things like a child that dies in infancy, for example, or a person born w/ profound mental retardation who can't comprehend), it all comes down to which way you choose.Originally posted by cff
I don't recall that hell was mentioned in the bible?
Not that I believe that there is a hell. There are some very interesting philosophical discussions about the essence of hell. Some very good movies as well. Have a look at "What Dreams May Come" for a "definition of hell".
Basically: Hell is what you create for yourself.
--No, the world would not necessarily listen to it, no matter how well-documented. The problem with Creationism (as has been pointed out elsewhere here) is that it, by definition, involves admitting there is a Creator: God. When you admit that God IS, you leave yourself open to having to be accountable to Him for your actions, and few people are courageous enough to sail into those waters. This fact, more than any other, makes it fairly certain that (as you put it) "it has never happened, and i seriously doubt it ever will.". On that much, at least we agree....Originally posted by Napoleon
...If the creationists could EVER present a logical and properly documented argument with well collected data, the scientific community would listen, as would the entire world. The fact is that it has never happened, and i seriously doubt it ever will.
...The fact is that is someone refuses to accept the observed evidence as to how the universe works without the least bit of proof to support their view they cannot be logical...The only way for it to be accepted by anyone is to admit that it isnt logical, that faith isnt logic. You can have faith that the creation story is true only by accepting your illogic and saying that you admit that your beliefs arent reasonable, arent logical, but that that doesnt matter because you believe it...
...The belief that everything in the bible is the literal word of god, no questions asked, no room for the error of the writers, no room for some of the tales to have been parables rather than actual truth, just complete dogmatic belief in what is said. Do NOT represent it as either god or evolution, it is either biblical literarism fundamentalist dogma or science, or any blend in between.
I think he's refering to "The Bible Code", in which people put the Bible through a computer and got all sorts of nonsense bullshit and thought it was some secret message.Originally posted by Preacher
And, the Bible was not written in code. The OT was written primarily in Hebrew, and the NT was primarily written in Aramaic and Greek.
The effects due to human actions change the rate at which normal world events happen. The ice age ending didnt happen in a matter of yeras, it took at least several centuries. Oral traditions can work, but we are talking to a period where languages werent clearly developed and most people were only concerned with day to day matters of life or deaht, not long term climate actions.Originally posted by Quarto
Over the past decade or so, weather patterns around the world have been changing wildly. These changes - most likely caused by global warming - include, surprise surprise, unprecedented floods. Central Europe has endured a flood almost every year for the past seven or eight years, which is more than unusual. And what we're going through is barely noticeable compared to what would have happened at the end of the ice age.
As for lacking the ability to record information - the ability to record information is convenient, certainly, but not the least bit necessary to preserve information. In fact, for most of human history, information usually wasn't recorded - even as late as the middle ages, only a select few could read and write. That's why you had bards, who would learn their tales by heart and eventually pass them on to others. Some of the greatest "literary" works, like the Iliad and the Oddyssey were transmitted purely orally for many generations before they were written down.
Fact means exactly the same thing in ordinary language as it does in science - a fact is a fact, pure and simple.
I never said there have been any fossils that conflict with evolution. However, when people like you try to present the current theory about how the human species evolved as truth rather than a theory (and a rather weak one - human evolution, not evolution in general, that is), this can only hurt the argument in support of evolution.
What you've shown is that you ignore anything that doesn't suit your world view. That's fanaticism. I don't claim that you're a fanatic - but you sure as hell do act like one.
You're ignoring the point. Their argument is that if you assume that God exists (in the same way that, when trying to prove any scientific theory, you first assume that it is correct and then back it up with facts), then everything on Earth and in the universe is evidence in support of God's existence.
Tell you what, let's try this another way. You've challenged them to disprove evolution. Well, here's a challenge for you - I want to see you disprove the existence of God. If you can achieve that, then, and only then, will you be able to claim that their argument is based only the writings of a few slaves and sheep herders. Until then, all you're doing is basing your argument on the "fact" that they're wrong - and it's impossible to prove someone is wrong based on them being wrong .
I really couldn't care less. I'm the moderator, and you're out of line. Nobody says you have to believe in God or that they have to believe in the evolution. But you have no right to insult their beliefs, just like they have no right to insult yours. The next time you cross that line, I won't bother editing your post - I'll simply delete it.
Originally posted by Preacher
[B Well, let's see: King David was a shepard, Moses became a shepard later in life, a couple of the minor prophets were shepards also. As to slaves, Daniel became one (well, sorta) after the Babylonian exile. I can't think of any others offhand. The really neat thing, though, is that a significant number of the biblical writers were fairly ordinary men, or even "lowlifes" (read: slaves & shepards), and yet the book they wrote has changed the world! (see Acts 4:13-20)
See, he excluded Moses and David from the sheep herdersOriginally posted by T8H3X11
.... Most of the Bible was written by some of the best taught people in the land. Genesis and Exodus - Written by Moses who was adopted by Pharoah'd daughter and received the best teachings in Egypt, Most of Psalms written by King David, the four gospels written by successful businessmen, .... The minority of the books were written by slaves/sheep herders...
Ok points, quick one that box, there are 20 recorded men in jeruselim during that general time period who had fathers named joseph and brothers named jesus and who were named james, absolutely no reason to assume that it is yours and not someone elses.Originally posted by Preacher
[B --Your ignorance is showing. There was a couple of TV shows I've seen over the years ("In Search Of", "Nova", shows like that--wish I could remember the exact names) wherein it was illustrated just how huge a cargo capacity Noah's ark actually had, as per the original specs given him by God. Further, what you call "tar" the Bible refers to as "pitch". It is simply a plant resin from trees (basically, sap), and thus is not a petroleum derivative at all. From all the trees that had to be felled to contruct the ark, Noah had an abundant supply of it, and had 100 years and 7 other people to help him gather/apply it. Finally, even your own own precious theory of evolution would allow for there being a lesser diversity of animal life (fewer species, and thus fewer animals that needed boarding in the ark) than exists now. As such, the ark being a suitable vessel to do the prescribed job is quite a bit more likely than you are obviously willing to admit.
--Well, one recent example would be the estuary ("bone box") recently found in Israel inscripted "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus". Evidence of the existence/death of the apostle James, Jesus' half-brother. Now all three of those names were common names in that day, but to have those particular three there, in the correct familial relationship, is extraordinary, Further, it was only common to refer to a man by his father. To include a reference, in that setting, to one's brother, would only have been done if the brother was someone of great prominence. That would only fit the biblical characters. Also, research over the last several years concerning seismic & volcanic activity in that region of the world "back then" has led to plausible scientific explanations as to how Sodom and Gomorrah may have been destroyed (volcanic ash), and how the walls of Jericho may've fallen (a quake). Both of these are events thought impossible/too incredible to believe by most skeptics/hard scientists up till these facts were brought to light by research. Now all of a sudden, you have scientists saying "Gee, now the Jericho walls thing and Sodom and Gomorrah don't seem so farfetched AFTER all (meanwhile, God's in heaven saying "Duh!").
Ah, yes... right... and the reason why unusually devastating, unseasonal floods and storms would not be matters of life and death is because...? Besides, the transmission of oral traditions was a matter of life and death anyway.Originally posted by Napoleon
Oral traditions can work, but we are talking to a period where languages werent clearly developed and most people were only concerned with day to day matters of life or deaht, not long term climate actions.
He's right. But this is not the case with the theory of evolution. It's quite possible to demonstrate the effects of evolution - but nobody has done it yet. We're still going on faith - scientists show us ancient, fossilised bones, and they say that these are probably related to man. Now, I happen to agree with them, but nonetheless they have no proof of this relationship. It's not genetics, it's faith .Stephen Jay Gould disagrees, within his essay "Evolution as Fact and Theory" he states that a fact in the scientific meaning means something that is so well documented and evidenced that it would be silly not to accept it.
Heh. Your argument, last I checked, was that evolution is true, and creation is false. Indeed, you have just tried to explain why you believe that evolution is fact. And now you tell me that when I see you claiming evolution is an unmoveable fact, I'm just imagining it?I do not present it as fact, i present it as the best knowledge at this time, any presentation as if it is immutable goes against my entire freaking argument throughout this convo, making it that any reading into it as if i am presenting it as an immutable fact is comming straight from you and not the text.
And yet, you refuse to explain why their claims are ludicrous. Nobody has ever proven that God doesn't exist. Therefore, it is your claim that God could not have created the Earth that is ludicrous.I have never refused to accept any info, i mearly wont listen to info that has been shown to be ludicris by people who know what they are talking about and from all info i have discovered.