First Human Cloned - What do you think?

Discussion in 'Off-topic Zone' started by Lynx, Jan 4, 2003.

  1. Preacher

    Preacher Swabbie
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    --Um, what bad opinion are you referring to?...

    --Well, mostly it's just plain "everyman" talk. See, in US English, we tend to write in a more formal manner than we talk. The way that I write when I put that stuff in is just me writing it the same way I say it. I have to write in an OVERLY formal manner when I am at work, writing notes in patients' charts, etc., so I like to relax more when I'm somewhere where I don't HAVE to do that (Well, that and being lazy...).

    --No offense taken. I'm a pretty laid-back guy...
     
  2. Preacher

    Preacher Swabbie
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    Actually, you spelled it perfectly. :cool:
     
  3. Napoleon

    Napoleon Spaceman

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    Ok bullsh*t there buddy, most of christendom if you count calvinist protestants and their theological descendants as most of christendom. You have the entire roman catholic church, which is the largest christian church, which doesnt believe in predestination, you have all the eastern orthodox religions as well, the armenian orthodox church, the coptic church, and im sure im forgetting several. All of which as best as i know (im not an expert on the coptic church, but being a half armenian half italian myself i know what most other armenians believe as well as basic catholic doctorine)

    Also the petrine docterine has been debated by theologians back and forth for about 5 centuries, I seriously doubt any holes you poke in it werent filled about 4 centuries before you were born. I am not nearly qualified enough in scripture to be able to debate such a thing with you but my point is this. You interpret your book of ancient tribal myths one way, the second oldest christian church disagrees with you, and many of the other sects of christianity, all of which have been around for much longer than protestants believe in some form of that concept having Patriarchs acting much the way the pope does, most notably the patriarch of constantanople who still sits at the main church of the eastern orthodox religions in turkey (i must say from the pictures i have seen of it, it is the second most impressive christian building ive ever seen, that is after the Haiga Sophia which is by far the most impressive building made by man, period, in my mind)

    Ohh the Protestants claim that faith matters, but the vast majority of protestant sects do believe in predestination, making faith irrelevant because no amount of faith will ever overcome a bad mark from the beggining, and no lack of faith will ever send you to hell if god said ok in the beginning. Thus while the protestants DO preach faith as the be all and end all (that is the primary difference between catholic and protestant beliefs, the catholics believe that faith and good works are necesary for redemption. The protestants only speak of faith as mattering, at least Luther said that good works were irrelevant and faith was all that mattered, something that John Calvin agreed with though he went further to say that redemption was already determined before birth. These views form the core of almost every protestant group that i know of, almost all of them are an amalgum of lutherin and calvinist docterine and interpretation of scripture.
     
  4. Ijuin

    Ijuin Admiral

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    That is exactly the problem with the predestination view--it makes it completely pointless for an individual to attempt to live a virtuous life. If you are not destined for Heaven, then you are beyond help, and may as well get in as much fun as you can before you are inevitably sent to Hell. Conversely, if you are destined for Heaven, then no amount of sin will take that away, so you are free to act with impunity and do whatever you please with no fear of divine disapproval. Taken either way, predestination amounts to a license to sin.
     
  5. Napoleon

    Napoleon Spaceman

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    My point exactly Ijuin
     
  6. Preacher

    Preacher Swabbie
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    Afraid not, young Padawan. If you go up to any pastor/elder or other mature believer you may trust who belongs to any mainstream Christian denomination (that is, any mature Christian who believes in the doctrine of predestination), and ask 'em if they see predestination as a license to sin, you will get a resounding "No" from them. Then ask 'em why they view it that way, and likely they'll espouse a view similar to what I outlined in my post. It only is a "license to sin" in the minds of those like yourself (apparently) who don't understand the theology behind it. A mature believer would understand what you aren't seeing (or don't want to)...
    Boy, did you ever miss the boat. Fortunately for you, there's almost always another one that comes by later. I advise you get on it. Go back & read my post again (On 1/17/03, posted at 13:53, 2 & 3rd paragraphs). Then if you wanna address the things I bring up there, we can talk.

    Yes, I AM counting protestants, as well as Orthodox & Catholics, all together - that constitutes all of mainstream christianity (Sure, there are some faiths claiming to be Christian, but they really aren't (Jehovah's witnesses, for example), so they're not exactly mainstream). Anyway, my original point (as you noted above), thus stands correct... As to the CC (remember, I grew up in that tradition), as I'd said, they have a whole bunch of funky doctrines that have no basis whatsoever in Scripture (purgatory, or this whole devotion to Mary thing, for examples). This is why, when I came to Christ, I chose not to return to the CC I had grown up in: now that I had "seen the light", I was becoming all too well aware of their errors.

    I never claimed to poke any "new" holes in it, I was just pointing out some holes that have no doubt been there (as you point out) "4 centuries before I was born". And none of them have been satisfactorily "filled", or else the debate would've ended long before this...

    --"Ancient tribal myths" - Hah! Good one :D...
    The primary distinctive of a 'myth' is that it is a tale that is completely fictional. Mebbe you should've looked up the dictionary definition of the word before you used it, so you don't come off sounding half-baked, as you have here.
    Ancient? Obviously. Tribal? Pretty much (12 tribes of Israel). Myths? Hardly: We get much of what we know today about ancient Israeli history, surrounding Middle Eastern history, and the history of the early church from this collection that you call "myths".
    ::shakes his head::

    --Second largest church? I thought the CC was the largest, or were you talking about Orthodox?... (plz clarify).

    You act as if predestination and faith are mutually exclusive; they are not. If they were, then just maybe faith would be irrelevant. Go get a pot of coffee in you so you can jolt yourself into a state of at least half-consciousness. Then go back and read my post again. Then read it a third time. By then, hopefully you can comprehend what I wrote, and you'll see the point I made there. Here, let me help you: The post was written on 1/17, at 13:53. Check the 2nd & 3rd paragraphs.

    I don't much care what the CC (or any church) says. The yardstick that I (and most every Christian I know) use is, "what does the Bible say on this matter?"... On the matter of salvation by works (more specifically, the lack thereof), James addresses it head on in James 2:14-26. Essentially, it boils down to this: Good works are an outgrowth of the prime necessity, faith. Thus, If faith is genuine, it will be accompanied by good works. If someone claims faith but they have not/do not produce any good works, then their faith is "dead" (that is, not genuine or sincere). Conversely, someone can go around doing all kind of good works for mere humanitarian reasons, but they have not true faith; such a one is no better off spiritually than if they just sat at home drinking all day. The CC tends to come down in this latter category, and they do so to their shame. Anyway, the bottom line here is this: Faith without works is dead, and works without faith are useless. They need to be together, and if A is genuine, B will accompany it naturally.
     
  7. Napoleon

    Napoleon Spaceman

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    Once again the yardstick you are applying is that of protestants, not most christians


    The coptic church isnt othodox, isnt protestant, isnt catholic, and it isnt a wacky sideshow either. It has been around since before the fall of western rome and is one of the oldest churches in existance and has a place in the church of the holy seplechur (i know i butchered the spelling) in jeruselem where all major christian groups have some portion of the church (except maybe the protestants, not sure about them). Mainstream christianity is alot larger than what you are willing to consider true. And only a small part of them (basically dutch, northern germans, scandanavians, scots, and americans) are protestants who believe in predestination (the anglican and episcipalian churches do not believe in such a thing). Holy Mother Church doesnt follow predestination, neither do the orthodox religions, the coptics, all the different apostolic religions (all of which were around before the schizm, making them more mainstream christians than the protestants)dont. Meaning that the majority of christendom doesnt believe in predestination. So sorry, but your out.

    The armenian orthodox church has no connection to the eastern orthodox church and is the oldest unified christian church. The catholic church in its present form was really created at the same time as the eastern orthodox churches, in the middle of the 11th century during the schizm.


    There is also a passage within the bible where there is some talk about purgatory existing, its minor but there.

    The bible is a compliation of ancient tribal myths. The history that it talks of as straight history isnt even something that im counting as a valid part of it becuase it has no real relation to faith and religion, just the history of the jews. All the religious, god, etc. stuff i consider myths.

    (just so you know we refer to ancient grecoroman religious stories as myths yet they have just as much real history as anything else. The Odyssey and Illiad are prime examples, very few schollars debate that the trojan war happened, in some variation. Likewise part of roman "myth" (by today's terminology) deals with real people like Numa, C. Julius Caesar, C. Julius Caesar Octavianus and others who were later diefied, thus real history is mixed with religion in something that you would term a myht, thus calling the bible which is the same thing random bits of real history mixed with fantasy, thus it is a book of ancient tribal myths.)

    Also the point isnt that faith and predestination are exclusive, mearly that someone could have zero faith, and be the worst human being ever born and according to protestantism they could still go to heaven.
     
  8. Preacher

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    --No, the yardstick I am applying is the Bible, which, last time I checked, was the foundation of all orthodox Christianity, as well as Protestants and the CC (and the Coptics as well). Therefore your denominational ramblings are somewhat off the point. Perhaps what is needed here is a clarification: When I talk of predestination, I am not agreeing point by point with Calvin. Calvinism and predestination are not synonymous; rather, I am agreeing with the Bible. I found this page (http://www.catholicsource.net/Predestination.html) which rather well summarizes the CC's position on predestination, and by the definition they're using (a closer one to the biblical meaning than Calvinism) , they DO believe in it - just not all the particular baggage that Calvin brought into the mix. So, if one stays away from Calvinism, it is found that your statement above lacks validity. Since the CC constitutes nominally almost (or by now, maybe even over) 1 billion of the world's population; is the single biggest Christian denomination; and when combined with the Protestants, DOES in fact represent the majority of Christendom, my original point stands correct ("the majority of mainstream Christendom DOES believe in it"). No one has yet (fortunately) brought "free will" into this dialogue, but as the info on that page shows, free will & predestination aren't mutually exclusive either. Rather, there is an interplay between the 2 of them. I am too lazy now to similarly look up such info about the various Orthodox faiths, but I wil prolly get to it eventually, since now my curiousity is aroused.
    --Really? Tell us where "there" is... Defend yourself, sir!...

    --Well, if YOU consider it a myth, that's your decision. But you'd be hard-pressed to defend that viewpoint in an appropriate forum. The history of the Jews as delineated in the Bible has a very real relation to "faith and religion"; they are in fact intimately related. Their history introduced them to their faith/religion, and molded them into a great nation. Without that, they'd have been just another of many nondescript nomadic bunches of tribes living in the Middle East.

    --Again, the Bible is hardly "random bits of real history mixed with fantasy"; get yer facts straight, bub.

    --It may not be 'the point', but it is the viewpoint you were espousing. And, no, that's not what Protestantism sez; read the info on the page I linked to above about predestination, and you'll see what is meant/said.
     
  9. Napoleon

    Napoleon Spaceman

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    preacher, ive read the SINGULAR biblical passage on predestination its in the book of Romans (either 9 or 10, i think). Then again it comes from paul a man who can be said to be singlehandedly responsable for all the bad aspects of the NT.

    and no buddy, the catholic church and all the other churches do not believe in predestination as such, otherwise there would be no point to confession or extreme unction.
     
  10. Preacher

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    --Gee, that's funny; a "SINGULAR" passage seems to be sufficient to you, the CC, and the Ortho churches to be able to justify a Pope/Patriarch, so by the same logic, it should be plenty sufficient to justify belief in predestination. And since you seem to be fixated on equating predestination w/ Calvinism (which I do NOT), I will, from this point on, distinguish what I'M talking about by referring to it as "election".

    Once again, you forgot to do your homework: There's more than just ONE passage about predestination/election, there are several... Check out Rom 8:29 & 30, Eph 1:5 & 11, Rom 11:2, 2 Tim 10, Matt 24, Mark 13 for starters...

    Your dislike of Paul (whatever the reason; only thing I can figure is that you dislike Paul because, well, because he's not Peter...) is evident, but I remind you that Paul's writings - which comprise the majority of the NT text - are universally accepted/embraced by the same CC/Ortho churches you seem to align yerself with so strongly. As someone who grew up Catholic myself, I can't recall having ever heard any priest, bishop, or CC theologian slam Paul or his writings, much less savage him as you have attempted to do. Also, I'd like to know what other "bad aspects" of the NT you are referring to. And, Paul wasn't the ONLY NT writer to address the idea of predestination, as the passages I cite above make pretty obvious.

    --I already told you how the CC does embrace predestination/election (albeit in a non-Calvinist sense), going so far as to point you to a webpage that documents this. If you refuse to accept what the CC themselves say about their own stance on this issue, you essentially confirm the diagnosis that you have an acute case of transrectal encephalitis... :rolleyes:
     
  11. Napoleon

    Napoleon Spaceman

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    Paul is a mysogynist, his preachings have lead to all the negative christian views on women and their place. that is reason enough to hate the dude.
     
  12. Preacher

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    ::shakes his head::
    Um, have you even read the Bible?... I mean, all the way through?... Even once?... You have much to learn, Padawan. Paul was no more misogynist than any of the other biblical writers. The fact that he addressed the role of women vs. men in the church/family/etc. more directly than others does not make him worthy of hate, or even dislike. Nor does it make him a misogynist. For example, when he speaks of women being the 'weaker vessel', he was speaking of their physical strength. That is the only way in which they are "weaker" than us male types. Check it with any theologian; they'll tell you the same.

    As to roles in the church/family, check Genesis 3:16 (not written by Paul, I might add): God says to Eve: "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." If anything, that rather set the tone right there, "in the beginning". Likewise, your ol' pal Peter told wives to be submissive to their husbands (1 Peter 3:1). How's that grab you? Fact is, most non-Christians (and even an alarming # of believers, sadly) have no clue what is meant by the biblical term "submission", and likewise neither do you (it seems), or you likely wouldn't have raised this issue. Suffice to say, it don't mean what y'all think it means. Don't forget; these men were followers of Jesus, and no figure of antiquity treated women with more respect than He...

    If you don't agree w/ Paul's writings, fine; but they have been accepted (all his writings) by the CC (no bastion of women's rights themselves, I might add), the Ortho churches, and the rest of Christianity. The fact that God ordained different roles for men & women in the family and in the church should not surprise anyone. Apparently you equate "different" with "unequal", and that's just plain wrong. Their roles are not unequal; just different...
     
  13. ChrisReid

    ChrisReid Super Soaker Collector / Administrator

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    The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
     
  14. Napoleon

    Napoleon Spaceman

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    peacher, i agree the bible as a whole is very mysoginistic but paul is the worst of them, and i have read your silly little holy book cover to cover then i burned it and used it to light a cig.
     
  15. Preacher

    Preacher Swabbie
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    Firstly, I never said it was misogynistic - that was your little title for it...

    Secondly, you burned it, huh?... Hmmmm...sounds like someone feels a tad threatened... In any event, I see now (though I suspected it all along) that my diagnosis was correct... :rolleyes:
     
  16. Napoleon

    Napoleon Spaceman

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    no not at all, i was just 12 and really liked fire and saw no other reason to keep it around, i know more than any other man that the way to kill an idea isnt to burn the book that it is in, it is rather to demonstrate that the idea is stupid, which is in this case, rather obvious to anyone who is supplied with all the facts and the faculties to understand them.
     
  17. LeHah

    LeHah 212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"

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    I think you don't need to burn something to prove it's stupid. Otherwise, I'm sure you and I and Preacher would be long dead.
     
  18. steampunk

    steampunk Spaceman

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    Nonsense! There are many many uses for a relatively thick book. You need a lesson in lateral thinking :D
     
  19. Preacher

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    Heheh; which you failed to do, and rather spectacularly at that...

    Here's a a little life hint for ya (no extra charge): Every now & then, it helps to go back and re-examine the ideas you had when you were 12 or so, have yerself a little chuckle at how ignorant you were, and then replace those ideas with a more realistic snapshot of what life is really all about. In fact, here's what your buddy Paul had to say about it:

    "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."
    (1 Cor 13:11-12).

    Sadly, some never get to this point...

    ::elbows Napoleon sharply in ribs::
     

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