First Human Cloned - What do you think?

Lynx

Spaceman
Originally posted by Preacher
Speak fer yerself :D ...

No, seriously:

Biologically, that statement is true. However, we are much more than the sum of our parts, unlike other animals.

Show me a speicies of animals that are made in their Creator's image; have a conscience; are capable of logic and reasoning; can feel compassion, love, sadness, and joy; are capable of building their own dwelling places (on a massive scale); build and use tools (and then use them to build still BETTER tools); can understand and converse in mathematics and music; have free will; defend the helpless, and give their lives to help/save another; who have a self-consciousness and who can somewhat understand and have fellowship with their awesome Creator, and then just MAYbe you'll have a fighting chance of convincing anyone that humans are "just another species" of animal...

...Until then, though, the unique distinctions of humankind mark us as completely "other"...
Humans are the only species on earth that does constantly illogical things like destroying it's own habitat, other species, takes pleausure in revenge and where different individuals kill each other for blatant reasons. As you can see, I'm not very confident about humanity.
 

Phillip Tanaka

Swabbie
Banned
Okay, I'll add my two cents worth in.

Re: thinking whether could rather than whether we should. I don't know. Should nuclear weapons have been invented? Should people be given the power they have? Should Chris Roberts have done some of the things he's done in Wing Commander? Whether we should or not is a good question. On the one hand cloning could be used for great evil. Such as, say, Saddam Hussain cloning himself so that he makes himself a more impossible target to hunbt down than he is now. Or, maybe, cloning the world's leaders so that they will all vote to have terrorism run rampant. But there are lots of benefits as well. Like organs and maybe bringing your loved ones back from the dead. Personnally, I would love to have myself cloned. I would love to see what my self thinks of me. It'd be cool. I could think of a few people I'd have cloned as well, if I could. Wait a minute...how about cloning becoming advanced enough that you can actually create people? Like, say, Wing Commander characters? Now THAT would rule.
 

Meson

Swabbie
Banned
Originally posted by Preacher
Speak fer yerself :D ...

No, seriously:

Biologically, that statement is true. However, we are much more than the sum of our parts, unlike other animals.

Show me a speicies of animals that are made in their Creator's image; have a conscience; are capable of logic and reasoning; can feel compassion, love, sadness, and joy; are capable of building their own dwelling places (on a massive scale); build and use tools (and then use them to build still BETTER tools); can understand and converse in mathematics and music; have free will; defend the helpless, and give their lives to help/save another; who have a self-consciousness and who can somewhat understand and have fellowship with their awesome Creator, and then just MAYbe you'll have a fighting chance of convincing anyone that humans are "just another species" of animal...

...Until then, though, the unique distinctions of humankind mark us as completely "other"...
Whales and other sea mammals. We already know that most are more inteligent than ourselves, and the debate still rages on whether or not they are sentient as well.
 

TC

SubCrid
Originally posted by Meson
We already know that most are more inteligent than ourselves,
Wow, show me... what method did they use to quantitatively measure intelligence?
 

steampunk

Spaceman
Originally posted by Meson
Whales and other sea mammals. We already know that most are more inteligent than ourselves, and the debate still rages on whether or not they are sentient as well.
I agree they're smart but since when were they smarter than humans? Doesn't matter, some great apes have the capacity to be self aware. Apes and dolphins can also develop their own 'culture' of sorts. Groups of these animals can develop their own form of entertainment, tools etc ... one particularly cool behaviour is exhibited by a group of dolphins that are part of a research group. They found out a way to blow bubbles in water and then shape them. So they can produce rings, drag a bubble into a long 'chain'. And other than fun, the behaviour is totally useless. There's a whole article on it in an issue of Sci Am.

BTW cff, it's not just the reproduction of organs we're interested in. We could grow hands, legs and other body parts to be sugically attached for people who loose them in accidents. That does require cloning. You can't simply grow a hand in some agar culture in a petry dish. As for reproduction, for some parents it' not just a matter of having a kid. They want a kid that's also biologically related. Not to mention that research in cloning might give us some insight into already existing form of fertility treatments like IVF.
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
Originally posted by Aries
just it...they are saying that another baby was cloned by the same group. two clones in damn near as many weeks......somethings not right here. they make another one without waiting to see what happens to the first?
No, they said they impregnated like ten women with clone embryos at the same time. Three or five or so are supposed to make it to birth they say.
 

Aries

Vice Admiral
what i ment was that a 2nd cloned baby was born, or so they said. sorry if i wasn't clear enough.
 

steampunk

Spaceman
Well it's probably just a publicity stunt anyway. I heard the FDA found their secret 'lab' and it turned out to be entirely inadequate to do any sort of cloning research.
 

Aries

Vice Admiral
which is what i believed from the start. can't trust people who get their devine instructions from aliens, can you?
 

Preacher

Swabbie
Banned
Damn; I thought I was pretty clear there, but what the heck; lemme clear some stuff up. My points were simply these:

1) At our best, our species far outstrips all other species in each of the areas I mentioned, not to mention hundreds more I don't have time for...

2) While some species may possess a strong ability in one or another of these areas, not even ONE other species has ALL the capabilities I mentioned. The fact that we alone possess all these traits sets us apart from all others. Anyone who can't at least admit that much is drowning in their own denial.

I understand that we humans are pretty adept at screwing things up, killing our own, destroying the environment, acting in vengeance, and that a few other species have intelligence that, so far as we can tell, is pretty close to our own (in a word, "Duh!"...). But all that goes to show is that we're imperfect.
 

steampunk

Spaceman
Originally posted by Preacher
Damn; I thought I was pretty clear there, but what the heck; lemme clear some stuff up. My points were simply these:

1) At our best, our species far outstrips all other species in each of the areas I mentioned, not to mention hundreds more I don't have time for...

2) While some species may possess a strong ability in one or another of these areas, not even ONE other species has ALL the capabilities I mentioned. The fact that we alone possess all these traits sets us apart from all others. Anyone who can't at least admit that much is drowning in their own denial.

I understand that we humans are pretty adept at screwing things up, killing our own, destroying the environment, acting in vengeance, and that a few other species have intelligence that, so far as we can tell, is pretty close to our own (in a word, "Duh!"...). But all that goes to show is that we're imperfect.
Have you talked to a dolphin? They may be as evolved as we are with regards to emotions and would build lots of cool things if only they had opposable thumbs. there's probably one swimming right now going, "Damn irresponsible fisher men. If I had opposable thumbs I could make that tachyon cannon and then they'd be in real trouble. Then I'd show all those punks at the CIC Chat Zone how WC is supposed to be played." :p
 

cff

Kilk'dymga'qith laq Ik'vikvi
Originally posted by steampunk

BTW cff, it's not just the reproduction of organs we're interested in. We could grow hands, legs and other body parts to be sugically attached for people who loose them in accidents. That does require cloning.
You can't simply grow a hand in some agar culture in a petry dish.
No, it doesn't.
Cloning is the reproduction of a whole organism.
You can besides already create some stuff outside of the human body or a clone.
Like human looking ears for example...
You cannot grow a hand yet, but that will come I am sure.

Originally posted by steampunk

As for reproduction, for some parents it' not just a matter of having a kid. They want a kid that's also biologically related.
Even with a donor and in vitro it would still be 'half you'

Originally posted by steampunk

Not to mention that research in cloning might give us some insight into already existing form of fertility treatments like IVF.
IVF what does that mean? In vitro?
If so how should cloning advance the knowledge there?
 

cff

Kilk'dymga'qith laq Ik'vikvi
Originally posted by Preacher

Show me a speicies of animals that are made in their Creator's image;
Prove me there is a creator and show me how he/she/it looks first

Originally posted by Preacher

have a conscience;
That's hard to prove. But I'd dar to say apes and whales.

Originally posted by Preacher

are capable of logic and reasoning;
About every higher organism?

Originally posted by Preacher

can feel compassion, love, sadness, and joy;
At least every mammal?

Originally posted by Preacher

are capable of building their own dwelling places (on a massive scale);
Beavers?

Originally posted by Preacher

build and use tools (and then use them to build still BETTER tools);
Apes?

Originally posted by Preacher

can understand and converse in mathematics and music;
How would you know? Some apes or pigs or dogs can calculate.
We also know that music greatly influences animals (cows give more milk for example with classic music)

Originally posted by Preacher

have free will;
Do we? That question is highly philosophical.

Originally posted by Preacher

defend the helpless, and give their lives to help/save another;
Rats

Originally posted by Preacher

who have a self-consciousness
Apes, Cats

Originally posted by Preacher

and who can somewhat understand and have fellowship with their awesome Creator,
Again, this is a philosophical question.

Originally posted by Preacher

2) While some species may possess a strong ability in one or another of these areas, not even ONE other species has ALL the capabilities I mentioned. The fact that we alone possess all these traits sets us apart from all others. Anyone who can't at least admit that much is drowning in their own denial.
That is oversimplifying. Just because a human is an atheist and so voiding one of your prequisites doesn't make him less 'superior'.
Similar just because we are unable to see one of the aspects in one animal you cannot say it isn't there.
I merely mentioned different organisms at it can be best show with them.
 

cff

Kilk'dymga'qith laq Ik'vikvi
Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka
On the one hand cloning could be used for great evil. Such as, say, Saddam Hussain cloning himself so that he makes himself a more impossible target to hunbt down than he is now.
Why clones? He already got at least 5 doubles as is...

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka

Or, maybe, cloning the world's leaders so that they will all vote to have terrorism run rampant.
As long as the aging takes roughly as long as a normal human the original would be out of government before the clone would be useful.

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka

But there are lots of benefits as well. Like organs
You don't need cloning here.

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka

and maybe bringing your loved ones back from the dead.
It wouldn't be your loved ones. Just genetic twins. You overestimate the importance of the DNA.

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka

Personnally, I would love to have myself cloned. I would love to see what my self thinks of me. It'd be cool.
He would probably think of you like a brother does. Again, he wouldn't be you.

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka

I could think of a few people I'd have cloned as well, if I could. Wait a minute...how about cloning becoming advanced enough that you can actually create people? Like, say, Wing Commander characters? Now THAT would rule.
That is a different story. Gene manipulation in the sense of improving humanity is an entirely different and very complex and dangerous subject.
I am sure we will engage in that sooner or later. I am also quite sure that we'll extinct half the globe by that sooner or later.
 

Lynx

Spaceman
Originally posted by cff

You don't need cloning here.
What about complex organs?


Another reason against cloning humans: Every animal cloned had had some 'flaws' (have no better word at the moment). Accelerated aging, organ damage and the like. There is no reason why this shouldn't hold true for humans clones. It's simply rresponsible to perform this on humans because we don't know too much about it.

BTW, methinks the whole story is a hoax. The sect wants to make just propaganda for their dubios cloning company.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
To expand on what cff said... it's worth noting that identical twins are basically genetical clones of each other - but they are only physically identical. Humans are shaped by their environment as much (probably, more) as by their genes.
 

Aries

Vice Admiral
Originally posted by cff
You don't need cloning here.
actually, cloning would be most benificial in the organ replacement area. if you cloned a persons heart, for example, the risk of regection would be nil. nowadays, even if the doner is very close in genetic structure, there is still a risk of regection.

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka
On the one hand cloning could be used for great evil. Such as, say, Saddam Hussain cloning himself so that he makes himself a more impossible target to hunbt down than he is now.
or just like AOTC - take one "super soldier" and clone him a million times, then go take on the world
 

steampunk

Spaceman
Originally posted by cff
No, it doesn't.
Cloning is the reproduction of a whole organism.
You can besides already create some stuff outside of the human body or a clone.
Like human looking ears for example...
You cannot grow a hand yet, but that will come I am sure.
We can grow certain tissues yes, but growing tissue is not growing an organ and it's certainly no where near being able to get cells to divide, get some of those cells to start forming muscle, some skin, some bone etc and getting it to form correctly into a hand or foot. And you certainly can't do that in a petri dish.

Even with a donor and in vitro it would still be 'half you'
Now consider a hetro couple, both infertile. Now you need donor sperm and donor eggs. Which birth parent does the kid share genes with?

IVF what does that mean? In vitro?
If so how should cloning advance the knowledge there?
Yes IVF = in vitro
One of the major problems with IVF is that there's not really a way of making sure that the fertilised egg will divide properly to be viable for implantation. And even when the egg does seem to divide correctly, there's no way of telling which ones will lead to a healthy child. So they implant sevreral eggs that look that they might work and cross their fingers. This is expensive for the hopeful parents and the chances even with several eggs sucks. Cloning people requires getting cells to divide except we're starting from an even more primitive point. At least with sperm and eggs we know that they can divide themselves if you stick the 2 together. So if we can figure out how to get cells to divide properly for cloning, we might get some insight on how to make it work better for IVF. Hence increasing the chances of success.

Cloning technology isn't simply directed towards the goal of make identical copies of people. A lot of the research will *gasp*, make our understanding of other biological processes better. You don't seriously think scientists what cloning research to continue just because they want to make more of themselves do you?
 
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