Finding A Way To The Stars , Time ?
- Thread starter Rider
- Start date
actually negative energy/exotic matter has been created in a controled environment. what you do is place 2 metalic plates as near to each other as possible and then create a vacume inbetween them and around them. then draw as much energy out as possible. when this happens, at a certain point the plates will be pulled together. meaning that they had less energy between them as outside of them but since all the energy had been taken out of the area surrounding them they must have had negative energy.
well, not quite...
in the case of faster than light travel, you are not taking away from one side of the equation or another, the variable (t) is changing.
I will use your example...
I called you, you are 10 miles away and I will be traveling exactly the speed of light.
v=d/t right? so 186000=10/30 ? no...
that means somthing must change. v cannot change, the speed of light is constant (as proven by James Clerk Maxwell). d cannot change since I am not going anywhere else, so t must change. t slows down for me, since i am the one going the speed of light, in order for the equation to be correct:
186000=10/5.38x10e-5
for a better example, try this: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/time/think.html
Sure, that is very possible. However this has been done many times, by many different scientists and organizations in many different countries, always with the same result. I find it very unlikely that anyone would be able to fix all of them. Also, you can work it out mathematically, and it is impossible to fake that no matter what.
No thrashings at all, simply friendly discussion
Preacher
Swabbie
Banned
Actually, it would simply "redistribute" our problems...
Physics tells us that energy cannot be created or destroyed (merely changed); similarly, the "physics" of human sociology (not to mention history!) should tell us that human incompetance and vice cannot ever be destroyed; merely changed (in this case, re-distributed)!
::begins writing his Nobel Prize acceptance speech forthwith::
Zor Prime
That guy.
Not necesarily,
energy cannot be created or destroyed. not emotions. colonization would solve many of our problems. Such as overcrowding, lack of food, and what not. by giving humanity one sole cause to focus all of our attention on, we will begin to work together. Take the intl space station for example. its the first step towards uniting humanity as one.
Unforgiven
Spaceman
I see a lot of things here about General Relativity and the time dilution problem. The problem I see with all your statements is that the examples put forth here all work with slower than light velocities, but none are actually known to apply to FTL. At leat not to my knowledge.
As far as I know, this is the formula for dilution (of time, mass and size) of a moving object relative to another object:
gamma = 1 / sqrt(1 - (v^2/c^2))
With v your relative velocity and c the velocity of light.
Well everybody learns at school that you can't take the square root of a negative number. (for the mathematicians here, yes you can with imaginairy numbers, but dilution must be a real number, so here you can't). So when v exceeds c, the result of this equation is undefined.
So you can't just say this equation is valid for FTL speeds. Perhaps going faster than light is no problem at all in itself. Perhaps it has no relativistic side-effects at all. The problem is that you'd never get there with conventional acceleration, because before you do, both your mass, size and time dilution would approach infinite. The first one would cause you to need more and more force to continue accelerating (F=M*A).
So by combining Newton's third law with some simple Special Theory of Relativity mathematics, we'd need infinite amounts of energy to ever reach light speed.
And even if you'd get there, while the journey would seem to take no time at all for the occupants of the space ship, infinite time would pass in the universe around them before they get there.
As mentioned before, the General Theory of Relativity allows some loopholes to get it done anyway, provided you'd get sufficient amounts of exotic matter.
As far as I know, this is the formula for dilution (of time, mass and size) of a moving object relative to another object:
gamma = 1 / sqrt(1 - (v^2/c^2))
With v your relative velocity and c the velocity of light.
Well everybody learns at school that you can't take the square root of a negative number. (for the mathematicians here, yes you can with imaginairy numbers, but dilution must be a real number, so here you can't). So when v exceeds c, the result of this equation is undefined.
So you can't just say this equation is valid for FTL speeds. Perhaps going faster than light is no problem at all in itself. Perhaps it has no relativistic side-effects at all. The problem is that you'd never get there with conventional acceleration, because before you do, both your mass, size and time dilution would approach infinite. The first one would cause you to need more and more force to continue accelerating (F=M*A).
So by combining Newton's third law with some simple Special Theory of Relativity mathematics, we'd need infinite amounts of energy to ever reach light speed.
And even if you'd get there, while the journey would seem to take no time at all for the occupants of the space ship, infinite time would pass in the universe around them before they get there.
As mentioned before, the General Theory of Relativity allows some loopholes to get it done anyway, provided you'd get sufficient amounts of exotic matter.
Preacher
Swabbie
Banned
Claro que no, mi amigo.
Emotions ARE "recycled" in that we feel them again and again throughout our lives (how boring it would be if we didn't!). We never really completely rid ourselves of anger, joy, etc. If you felt it yesterday, you can rest assured that you will feel such at some point in the future as well...many times!
Human nature never changes. If it did, there wouldn't be any more war, famine, etc. anymore. These are primarily human phenomena, due to our own corrupted human nature. The only thing that has substantially changed about humanity in the last 2000 years is that we find more & more ingenious ways to screw things up, though at least we can do it in "high tech" ways now.
. If we screw up our civilization here on the earth, colonization of other worlds will merely "spread" the problems there as well. This "one sole cause" and space station examples you give will only serve to unite humanity for a finite period of time, until we munge things up again.
Despite such viewpoints, I do not despair of humanity's destiny. For in our corrupted human natures, we see our frailty and woeful inadequacies. It is only then that we can turn to the God who made us, and acknowledge His supreme power to save us from ourselves, and despite ourselves. It is only in Christ that we can hope, and place our present and future (eternal) security, whatever storms may hit us in this life. Praise His name that this is the free gift available by His grace to ALL of us. I urge all to avail themselves of this incomparable gift.
::concludes his sermon::
Ladiesman^
Spaceman
You prolly shouldn't post religious stuff. One, it causes holy wars and completetly destroy the topic, and Two, it makes me all pissy.
Anyway, about such things as colonizing planets and stuff, we don't need to do that to solve overcrowding. What we need is better archicture/irrigation/the whole nine yards, and develop the deserts of the world. Hundreds of miles of nothingness that, if we had the right tools, could be made habitable. Also, we should work on expanding into the oceans. The Earth is more water than land, and if we can learn to live in that water..either on it or under it..we will have little overpopulation problems.
Don't get me wrong, I would *LOVE* to have FTL travel and colonize planets. But it seems more practical if we figured out a way to create a device that could draw oxygen from water, enabling us to create vast underwater cities that are pretty much self sufficient.
I'll bet LOAF probably agrees with me on that....he likes fish.
Ender's Game
Unforgiven, you are absolutely right... with what we know AT THIS MOMENT it is impossible to achieve FTL speed.
The problem as we assume indeed is in the conventional acceleration. So we'll have to wait for the genius who'll find an unconventional acceleration to start pioneering on this path.
And where to get infinite amounts of energy? It is said that a species at the brink of extremination will either fall or produce genius. Seems we're not there yet, but maybe in a few years... all it takes is one madman at the wrong place in the wrong time... or a natural disaster.
I myself love the theory that we shouldn't be looking for FTL solutions. How about FTT? Time is the issue. Speed is measured in timeframes. So... what will be invented first? FTL travel or Time travel?
"And even if you'd get there, while the journey would seem to take no time at all for the occupants of the space ship, infinite time would pass in the universe around them before they get there. " Well now... that takes care of the problem of intergalactic war for the first few centuries, right? By the time Earth knows about the uprising, years have gone by... imagine retaliation! At least, when you're traveling with light speed velocities. Time/space travel would make it a lot more interesting. Imagine that it takes you near to no time to get from A to B.
Just reread the Ender trilogy by Orson Scott Card. There they knew that intergalactic travel would take years, never stopped them.
But me, I'm still charmed by the FTT option.
Unforgiven, you are absolutely right... with what we know AT THIS MOMENT it is impossible to achieve FTL speed.
The problem as we assume indeed is in the conventional acceleration. So we'll have to wait for the genius who'll find an unconventional acceleration to start pioneering on this path.
And where to get infinite amounts of energy? It is said that a species at the brink of extremination will either fall or produce genius. Seems we're not there yet, but maybe in a few years... all it takes is one madman at the wrong place in the wrong time... or a natural disaster.
I myself love the theory that we shouldn't be looking for FTL solutions. How about FTT? Time is the issue. Speed is measured in timeframes. So... what will be invented first? FTL travel or Time travel?
"And even if you'd get there, while the journey would seem to take no time at all for the occupants of the space ship, infinite time would pass in the universe around them before they get there. " Well now... that takes care of the problem of intergalactic war for the first few centuries, right? By the time Earth knows about the uprising, years have gone by... imagine retaliation! At least, when you're traveling with light speed velocities. Time/space travel would make it a lot more interesting. Imagine that it takes you near to no time to get from A to B.
Just reread the Ender trilogy by Orson Scott Card. There they knew that intergalactic travel would take years, never stopped them.
But me, I'm still charmed by the FTT option.
Ladiesman^
Spaceman
Re: Ender's Game
It would seem, however I don't know, that FTL would be more feasible than FTT. I mean, we already know the speed of light, and have theories about how to do FTL. But FTT is still a total mystery. We don't know if time even does "move". Perhaps time is simply a thing we have created. Time may simply be a "sense". We can sense the passing of time. That doesn't mean it's moving, or has a speed. We just think it does. Then again, it might very well have a speed.
But i've still got to say, with what we know at this moment, FTL seems more feasible than FTT.
It would seem, however I don't know, that FTL would be more feasible than FTT. I mean, we already know the speed of light, and have theories about how to do FTL. But FTT is still a total mystery. We don't know if time even does "move". Perhaps time is simply a thing we have created. Time may simply be a "sense". We can sense the passing of time. That doesn't mean it's moving, or has a speed. We just think it does. Then again, it might very well have a speed.
But i've still got to say, with what we know at this moment, FTL seems more feasible than FTT.
Anyone interested in the relativistic aspects of FTL travel should check this out: http://www2.slac.stanford.edu/vvc/theory/relativity.html
I found it very interesting.
Although I find the science behind FTL and FTT, I agree with the view that our attention and energy should be concentrated toward our own planet and society. However, it sure would be cool to be able to travel with the stars.
I found it very interesting.
Although I find the science behind FTL and FTT, I agree with the view that our attention and energy should be concentrated toward our own planet and society. However, it sure would be cool to be able to travel with the stars.
Wedge009
Rogue Leader
Preacher, I think most people have already made their decision regarding what you've posted, it's just a pity that too often the decision is based on incomplete information and/or incorrect stereotypes. Nevertheless, it's best to avoid such topics here. 
Now, back to the physics stuff...
Now, back to the physics stuff...
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
Re: Ender's Game
Hehe, per happenstance I just finished the 1st and 2nd Ender books. But the problem with different ageing was already known to me through the Chanur series.
Hehe, per happenstance I just finished the 1st and 2nd Ender books. But the problem with different ageing was already known to me through the Chanur series.