Fav Traitor Group/Faction

[Skyfire]

Like I was saying, Ladiesman-if they don't tell you, your not at fault-I'll give you that. (After all, you can't know.) But if you DO know, then there can be problems. Not whether your bound to do so, or threatened, but if your going to stand up for your principles.

However, I can fully see your point of, "If I'm in a death situation, then I'm certainly not going to be doing my principles good dead." So don't think that I'm not understanding you.

I also agree with LOAF, there are a difference between war crimes and "stuff to piss off hippies." (All the more because I like that quote.)

As for them being a traitor group-that too can be debated, I'll agree. (They were terrorists, that's solid, but they were technically trying to do good for the Confederation-even if they did it through questionable tactics.)

 

[Ripper]

Hobs is the only traitor Iknow of. What group was he in?

 

[Quarto]

Either the Ghorah Khar Rebellion, or the Kilrathi Empire - it depends which treason you're talking about .

 

[Raptor]

Originally posted by Skyfire
(They were terrorists, that's solid, but they were technically trying to do good for the Confederation-even if they did it through questionable tactics.)

]

I think all the Confed citizens who would have ended up being slaughtered in the billions if the Black Lance had succeeded might disagree that they were trying to do good for Confed.

Best, Raptor

 

[Ladiesman^]

Originally posted by Raptor
]

I think all the Confed citizens who would have ended up being slaughtered in the billions if the Black Lance had succeeded might disagree that they were trying to do good for Confed.

Best, Raptor

We hell, even if I were to end up dead, I couldn't argue that they weren't trying to help the Confederation....I might not want their "help"....but they were trying....

 

[Raptor]

They were trying to impose their own idea of what was "better" on the rest of the Confederation without its consent. That's not the same thing as helping.

Best, Raptor

 

[Ladiesman^]

Originally posted by Raptor
They were trying to impose their own idea of what was "better" on the rest of the Confederation without its consent. That's not the same thing as helping.

Best, Raptor

Regardless of WHAT they wanted to do and their methods, they WERE trying to help the Confederation. Even if it's just in their own minds, they did see themsevles as helping the Confederation. I don't see how it could be argued that they weren't attempting to make the Confederation "better". It was just their idea of "better". They thought making the Confederation "better" would be "helping" it......

 

[Skyfire]

Ladiesman is right. Just because you don't agree with their concept of how to make things better, doesn't mean they weren't trying to make things better. Just like the method you would use might be wrong to them-but you are trying to improve things.

 

[Ripper]

his is for Quarto. Those groups you mentioned wernt in the poll.

 

[Raptor]

Originally posted by Skyfire
Ladiesman is right. Just because you don't agree with their concept of how to make things better, doesn't mean they weren't trying to make things better. Just like the method you would use might be wrong to them-but you are trying to improve things.

They're not going to improve things for the majority of Confed citizens though, who will end up dead in their purges, seeing that they're the "genetic dregs" as Tolwyn called them. They're trying to improve things for the minority who fit their master race profile. That's like one of us plotting to kill/enslave everyone in the country but our own ethnic group (acting on a sincere belief that we're superior) and then claiming we were trying to better the country.

Best, Raptor

 

[Skyfire]

Your being too stubborn to see anything but the result of their actions, rather than the beliefs that created those actions. They believed that Confed would become better, stronger, with genetically "perfect" people, with the BL as their ultimate spearhead of the military.

Now, while a lot of people would die because of the methods by which they were using to bring about this "better universe," that still doesn't change the fact that they thought they were doing good for Confed! Their actions of purging humanity may be, by the majorities standpoint, more harmful than good-it doesn't matter what the majority think. Those that were with/assisting the BL thought they were doing good things for Confed. (Just like the Belsarrius, or however you spell it, believe that a military coup will be better for Confed than a civilian government.)

 

[Ladiesman^]

Originally posted by Raptor


They're not going to improve things for the majority of Confed citizens though, who will end up dead in their purges, seeing that they're the "genetic dregs" as Tolwyn called them. They're trying to improve things for the minority who fit their master race profile. That's like one of us plotting to kill/enslave everyone in the country but our own ethnic group (acting on a sincere belief that we're superior) and then claiming we were trying to better the country.

Best, Raptor

I'm not saying they were RIGHT, just that IN THEIR OWN MINDS, they WERE making a sincere effort at helping the Confederation. They were acting on their beleifs.

Your example was perfectly correct. No matter how bad it may seem or actually be, I would be attempting to help. I may not actually be helping anything, but I am TRYING....

 

[Raptor]

The trouble with this line of reasoning is that it can be used as a defence by anyone who tries to impose an idealogy on the rest of their country by force, no matter how small a minority they are, how undemocratic their goals, or how violent their methords, or who act against their countrymen. (There were quite a few people from Allied countries who fought for the SS Freikorps during WW2 for example, based on a sincere belief in Fascism.) Treason comes down to how the rest of the population views what you are trying to do them, not how you view what you did. Even if you think that you are perfectly justified in what you did, if you betray the interests of the nation as a whole for your own gain or beliefs, that's a treasonous action.

Best, Raptor

 

[Ladiesman^]

Originally posted by Raptor
The trouble with this line of reasoning is that it can be used as a defence by anyone who tries to impose an idealogy on the rest of their country by force, no matter how small a minority they are, how undemocratic their goals, or how violent their methords, or who act against their countrymen. (There were quite a few people from Allied countries who fought for the SS Freikorps during WW2 for example, based on a sincere belief in Fascism.) Treason comes down to how the rest of the population views what you are trying to do them, not how you view what you did. Even if you think that you are perfectly justified in what you did, if you betray the interests of the nation as a whole for your own gain or beliefs, that's a treasonous action.

Best, Raptor

I define treason as doing something to intentionally harm your country...

The Black Lance didn't think what they were doing was harming their country....

Now, in reality, they WERE traitors to Confed. They WERE killing Confed civilians. They WERE all around space nazi's. I just see it hard to completely label them as evil traterous pigs, as they saw the Confederation in desperate times and simply wanted to help. They chose an odd way to go about it...

 

[Skyfire]

I'd tend to agree that attempting to make the majority have the will of the minority is indeed wrong-and don't get me wrong, I can see your point in trying to say that they were "evil" or "wrong." And I also agree that they did more harm than good. But like I said, just because I don't agree with their views, doesn't mean they didn't TRY for the best.

I tend to go with the dictionary with this one:

"Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies."

That's treason. Attempting to do something that may be morally, or just downright, for the majority, wrong-doesn't mean your not trying to help.

Although I agree that the decision of treason comes down to the people that were affected by it, that comes after the fact that they were successful/stopped. The concept with which they are planning/acting under is what I'm trying to point out.

 

[Raptor]

Well, to take your own definition, waging war against your country is treason. A war can be instigated within a country as well as from the outside. I would call the deadly attacks on Confed fighter pilots, the destruction of Confed supply depot, the murder of Confed civilians, instigating a plan to wipe out billions of Confed citizens to all be acts of war. The Confed Senate thought so too, and was prepared to issue a declaration of war against the Border Worlds based on those same acts.

Now, I don't dispute that *in their own minds* the Black Lance were convinced they were right, as fanatics often are. That doesn't in any way make their acts any less of a betrayal of their fellow soldiers or the government they were sworn to serve and the people they were sworn to protect.

Best, Raptor

 

[Skyfire]

I'd agree they were committing rather treasonous acts against the government in killing their own civilians, pilots, etc. While you might be able to try to say that the BW didn't help the situation and the BL were only the catalysts, the BW helped create the problem-I wouldn't really agree with it. (After all, if your pushed around, do you just allow that to happen? Especially as a fledgling government.)

 

[Raptor]

I agree. (Bet you thought you would never hear me say that, did you? ) The Border Worlders were pretty the scapegoats. Tolwyn needed someone reasonably threatening to create a war with, but not threatening enough to do serious damage to the Black Lance, and the Border Worlds happened to fit the bill. Blaming them for what happened would be like blaing Poland for WW2.

Best, Raptor

 

[Skyfire]

(Hold on, I'll tell you whether I did or not once the heartattack dies down. )

I'd tend to concur with that. Although I do have to ask how reliable Confed's intelligence network was if Tolwyn could so easily hide his activities. (In the novels, they were rather top notch, if I remember correctly.)

 

[Ripper]

OK I guess the Pilgrims they seemed to be the nicest.