Do u think CVEs had ICIS time of WCP/SO?

Originally posted by BattleDog
As to service, well modern warships go about 25 years, and if you overhaul the hull and the superstructure you could quite easily double that.
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Some warships ... the larger ones ... carriers and battleships are kept in service longer, but you are correct in your 25 year fact.
 
Super-Carrier Ship Complement

You guys are very wise I bow to you.Anyway I got another question if you don't mind.

What do you think Supercarriers like TCS St.Helen.Ship Complement is in circa Prophecy?
 
Hmm, probably similar to the Midway, with a fourth squadron. So... Piranha, Tigershark, Wasp, Shrike, Devestator, Panther, Vampire and Thunderbolt VII.
 
Loaf, I was just thinking about what you said about CVE Complement and I was thought of something.

If they only carry Excals,Panthers and Shrikes how could any those act as SAR when none of them have Tractor Beams.Wouldn't a Condor SAR be included?
 
Originally posted by Raptor leader
Loaf, I was just thinking about what you said about CVE Complement and I was thought of something.

If they only carry Excals,Panthers and Shrikes how could any those act as SAR when none of them have Tractor Beams.Wouldn't a Condor SAR be included?
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In Wing Commander 4 Novel, they show a Hellcat with a tractor beam, mounted for SAR purposes, pulling an ejected pilot onto a hardpoint to fly back to Lexington.

They can modify the buggers for SAR use, and have in the past.
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
Hmm, probably similar to the Midway, with a fourth squadron. So... Piranha, Tigershark, Wasp, Shrike, Devestator, Panther, Vampire and Thunderbolt VII.
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Hmm......do you think that Confed replaced all the other ships they had with the new generation ones ?Even the "jeep" carriers,escort carriers,strike carriers bla bla bla has similar complement?

My opinion is that the Prophecy ships are not in much use.Maybe only for MegaCarriers,SuperCarriers.I think that the rest of the Fleet still uses Hellcats,Rapiers,Arrows etc...
 
Originally posted by TCSTigersClaw
Hmm......do you think that Confed replaced all the other ships they had with the new generation ones ?Even the "jeep" carriers,escort carriers,strike carriers bla bla bla has similar complement?

My opinion is that the Prophecy ships are not in much use.Maybe only for MegaCarriers,SuperCarriers.I think that the rest of the Fleet still uses Hellcats,Rapiers,Arrows etc...
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Though we see older fighters still in service, we can probably assume that they're phasing out certain classes of old ships to use the newer craft on them - especially if there's room for them.

Example: though we see Thunderbolts and Excaliburs flying off the TCS Eisen, they also transported the Wolfpack Squadron's Vampires to Midway, and we can probably say they have another squadron of them on board.

However, Rapiers were already out of date by the time WC3 came around - and in WC4N, we only see them in service in the Landreich. I would suggest that they're retiring certain classes of fighters as they reach the end of their operational life with the newer craft, but they were still manufacturing certain groups (Thunderbolts, maybe Hellcat V's) while others were made in limited quantities for more specialized purposes (Excaliburs).

Otherwise, I'd expect to see far more Piranhas than Arrows, given that scout craft are likely to need the newer tech more than the heavy or medium fighters, which are more 'well-rounded' in their functions.
 
Well,maybe we dont -see- rapiers in the games or in the novels but I dont think they are retired.....They are new ships compared to other and their stats are very good.Look at the manuerability!
Its perfect for a medium fighter!Even for a light fighter.....;)

Also ,the crossbows,the Mornigstars,The Wraith.All these are also new crafts produced at 2667-2668....I dont think will just scrap them.....
 
Originally posted by TCSTigersClaw
Well,maybe we dont -see- rapiers in the games or in the novels but I dont think they are retired.....They are new ships compared to other and their stats are very good.Look at the manuerability!
Its perfect for a medium fighter!Even for a light fighter.....;)

Also ,the crossbows,the Mornigstars,The Wraith.All these are also new crafts produced at 2667-2668....I dont think will just scrap them.....
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Problem: you can only upgrade them so much. Also, WC4N explicitly states that Rapiers, Sabres, Scimitars, and Raptors are considered second-line fighters, compared to the Hellcats, Thunderbolts, and Arrows that the Lexington uses. We have canon sources which state these craft are not considered fit for front-line duty anymore. Therefore, shoving them onto Escort Carriers or other ships which are likely to go onto the front line is not something you're likely to do.

Especially when you have smaller craft like Piranhas or the like to put in. The Arrow was 20 meters long, versus the 12.5 meters for a Piranha. You're going to want the Piranha for the space and mass savings, plus the fact that the Piranha's faster and has better protection than the Arrow does. On an Escort Carrier that's likely to hit the front lines, you're going to outfit them with your best fighters... and the Arrow's a very old design anyways. You're going to keep your Arrows on second-line duty, perhaps for Home Guard or sleepy rear-line base garrison.

Rapiers are ancient, and are so outmoded that the Border Worlds was able to buy them for use in WC4N... you don't usually sell off assets which you can upgrade, if you can help it. These were only used by the Border Worlds because they didn't have enough Banshees or Avengers or Vindicators for all their little fleet. Those were about as front-line as they could field. Remember why you were in Speradon in the first place, if you took that route - you were there to steal ships, because the Border Worlds had crap for their fighter inventory. They're easily outperformed by even modern heavy fighters, by WCP (look at the Thunderbolt stats: 50/50/50 versus 10/10/10 for WC2's Rapier. They were excellent fighters in their day, but that day's long gone.

Also, the Crossbow was a prototype, as was the Morningstar - as stated in WC2:SO1 and SO2. They were there for testing, and the Morningstar apparently never made it into mass production though the technologies pioneered in both craft probably made their way into WC3-era ships. The Wraith of Academy was also a prototype, and didn't exist outside the simulator - the Armada version was a limited production run, and you built those buggers yourself with the equipment you had on the Lexington. Apparently, they were never widely adopted.

Heck, look at what 'old' fighters we see in WC:SO - Thunderbolt VIIs and Excaliburs. These are both heavy fighters, which usually get the most 'generalist' roles, according to WC3N. They can be used for strikes OR for anti-fighter defense... they do a lot of general busywork, versus the lights which are used for scouting or (maybe) interception, and the mediums which tend to do more escort or intercept work.

So yes, they're likely to have been scrapped or sold off. It's like trying to keep F-4 Phantoms flying now, when you've got the F-15 nearing the end of its operational life (20 years later) and the F/A-22 about to be adopted en masse.
 
The Wc3-Wc4 Hellcats Arrows and etc are Upgraded versions of them.Remember, we see Hellcats and Arrows at about 2654 !!! (WC Academy series) .All these upgrades were made as I said before -in my opinion ofcourse- during fake "peace" bye the Kilrathi...Confed maybe just choose to upgrade the ships we see at Wc3 ,for unkown reasons (the real reason is that Roberts wanted to show us new ships with WC3,and not the old ones,which were also difficult to design with the Wc4 engine).

Also the Wc1/Wc2 stats are not 10/10/10 but 100/100/100 ,so we are talking about 100 degrees per second.This has been discussed before about the Wc1/Wc2 etc era ships and its acceptable from all (Look at the 2 SO mod`s ships stats also)
 
Originally posted by TCSTigersClaw
The Wc3-Wc4 Hellcats Arrows and etc are Upgraded versions of them.Remember, we see Hellcats and Arrows at about 2654 !!! (WC Academy series) .All these upgrades were made as I said before -in my opinion ofcourse- during fake "peace" bye the Kilrathi...Confed maybe just choose to upgrade the ships we see at Wc3 ,for unkown reasons (the real reason is that Roberts wanted to show us new ships with WC3,and not the old ones,which were also difficult to design with the Wc4 engine).

Also the Wc1/Wc2 stats are not 10/10/10 but 100/100/100 ,so we are talking about 100 degrees per second.This has been discussed before about the Wc1/Wc2 etc era ships and its acceptable from all (Look at the 2 SO mod`s ships stats also)
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The stats in the CIC Ship Database show 10/10/10 for Rapiers... and the WC4 novel shows how seriously outgunned and outarmored these things were against more recent vintage Confed fighters. They're stated there to be second line craft - a canon source. Therefore, I'm more likely to believe them than I am to believe you, because you 'suppose' something.

And let me put it to you this way, again, since the point was ignored - you've got an escort carrier, which is smaller than your fleet carriers, and it's likely to see action. Now, you've got a choice between an old craft which is big and less well armored and armed than its modern equivalent, which has the virtue of being lighter and smaller. Your hangar's only got so much volume, because your carrier's a lot smaller than a full-sized heavy carrier.

I also would like to raise the point that because the fighter is older, it does NOT mean it's necessarily cheaper; in fact, replacement parts may be more expensive, because those factories which built them have likely been tasked to make the parts for newer fighters with newer technology.

So, if you've got limited space, do you go for the older and larger light fighters, or get the smaller and faster ones which means you've conserved some volume either for powerful heavy fighters, or maybe you're just lugging less mass around so you have less inertia and burn less power?
 
There are a LOT differences between the games and the Ship`s data.Even if you use the editor for example at Wc2 youll find that some things are different from the Database.The Wc1/Wc2/WcPriv etc Database about the Y/P/R system DOESNT represent the actuall dps that the Fighters can do.Maybe it makes sense for the WC 1/Wc2 3D engine.Do you think that Rapier ,turnes with only 10 dps ??Capships turn that slow.This has been discussed in the Standoff or the Uknown Enemy thread,I dont remember.I asked how they mesoured the Y/P/R for the Wc1/Wc2 ets ships cause it doesnt make sense in the WcP Engine.Something Simple.Armada`s database for example has 6/6/7 deg/s Y/P/R for the Arrow.Go play the game and see if it only turnes with 6 dps !Its easy to mesoure and you dont have to be good at Mathematics.

Something else,Some of the Wc2 ships are NEWER than the Wc3 era ships.Read again what I said below.
-You are probably right about the escort carrier`s ship loadout,but I dont think the new generation Prophecy ships are cheaper than the 266* era ships.They are state of the art ships.
 
Originally posted by TCSTigersClaw
There are a LOT differences between the games and the Ship`s data.Even if you use the editor for example at Wc2 youll find that some things are different from the Database.The Wc1/Wc2/WcPriv etc Database about the Y/P/R system DOESNT represent the actuall dps that the Fighters can do.Maybe it makes sense for the WC 1/Wc2 3D engine.Do you think that Rapier ,turnes with only 10 dps ??Capships turn that slow.This has been discussed in the Standoff or the Uknown Enemy thread,I dont remember.I asked how they mesoured the Y/P/R for the Wc1/Wc2 ets ships cause it doesnt make sense in the WcP Engine.Something Simple.Armada`s database for example has 6/6/7 deg/s Y/P/R for the Arrow.Go play the game and see if it only turnes with 6 dps !Its easy to mesoure and you dont have to be good at Mathematics.

Something else,Some of the Wc2 ships are NEWER than the Wc3 era ships.Read again what I said below.
-You are probably right about the escort carrier`s ship loadout,but I dont think the new generation Prophecy ships are cheaper than the 266* era ships.They are state of the art ships.
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Talk to LOAF about the maneuverability, but as I noted - you can only upgrade designs so much, and new fighters have their advantage in the fact they probably ARE cheaper to build than to upgrade an old airframe to current standards.

And to take a present-day example...

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-35.htm

According to FAS, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, slated to replace the F-16 and F/A-18 fighters plus the Harriers currently in service with the USAF, US Navy, and US Marine Corps cost about $28-38 million apiece, with the USAF version being the cheapest, the US Navy version costing about $35 million, and the Marine version with the VSTOL costing $38 million. These include much of the stealth capabilities of the F-22, and include more modern electronics than the three fighters they're replacing.

In contrast, the F-16 costs $26.9 million, the F/A-18E costs $60 million, and the AV-8B Harrier costs $24 million or so. Also, because the JSF variants share so many parts, they make it MUCH easier (and cheaper) for the logistics people of all those branches to handle distribution... and the US Government can buy the parts in serious quantity, which means significant cost savings right across the board.

And notice how those newer-tech fighters cost the same, or just a bit more, than 20-30 year old fighter craft. They also provide more survivability - and in the end, cost less than trying to upgrade old craft to perform at the same level... which they can't anyways.

The F-35 has better legs than an F-16 or F/A-18, much less a Harrier, with its internal fuel bays and inline missile bay. The only thing it really sacrifices when compared to those three fighters is the bombing capacity of the F-16C, even if it can carry bigger bombs than it... it doesn't carry as many.
 
I agree with all these.....but remember something JSF was meant to be a CHEAP joint new era strike Fighter/Attacker.

I think you are comparising 2 different things my friend...

Anyway ,I just dont think,that the new Generation of Fighters (Prophecy-SO) are cheap.If they are why not they can replace the hole fleet ;) ,but who knows ? I think they are just too good (Except Pirancha,Tigershark,Shrike they look more normal,the others are all superfighters ) to be cheap
 
Originally posted by TCSTigersClaw
I agree with all these.....but remember something JSF was meant to be a CHEAP joint new era strike Fighter/Attacker.

I think you are comparising 2 different things my friend...

Anyway ,I just dont think,that the new Generation of Fighters (Prophecy-SO) are cheap.If they are why not they can replace the hole fleet ;) ,but who knows ? I think they are just too good (Except Pirancha,Tigershark,Shrike they look more normal,the others are all superfighters ) to be cheap
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We know Thunderbolts and Excaliburs are in some use in WCP and SO. However, I don't see the bulk of the fleet using Hellcats or Arrows on front-line carriers when they can get cheaper or at least more cost-effective craft like Piranhas or Tigersharks out for about the same price, with greater capability.

The JSF has stealth tech which isn't quite the F-22's equal... but which is far superior to that of the F/A-18, F-16, and AV-8B. And in today's battlefield, stealth = life.

It's easier just to buy the new craft, sometimes... and get extra value.
 
We see Excals and ThundersBolds only in SO.Anyway ,cause we dont see Hellcats doesnt mean that they are not around.Hellcats and Arrows where also at about 2654 around but we dont see any in Wc1 ;)
 
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