Do u think CVEs had ICIS time of WCP/SO?

Actually, we do not see Hellcats in 2654, at least not the Hellcat V. Why? Simple - the Hellcat V is F-86, and in 2654, the F-44 is only about to be brought onto the frontlines. The only way the Hellcat V could be around in 2654 is if it was actually CF-86, making it older than the CF-105 Scimitar. This leads us to conclude that the ship we see in the cartoon is some other ship that looks very similar to the not-yet-invented Hellcat V.

Arrows are a different story, of course, since we don't know their designation number. But if that really was an Arrow we saw in the cartoon, then that would certainly be a good reason to believe there's no more Arrows in 2681 :).
 
(sorry for the double post)

Originally posted by Haesslich
Also, the Crossbow was a prototype, as was the Morningstar - as stated in WC2:SO1 and SO2. They were there for testing, and the Morningstar apparently never made it into mass production though the technologies pioneered in both craft probably made their way into WC3-era ships. The Wraith of Academy was also a prototype, and didn't exist outside the simulator - the Armada version was a limited production run, and you built those buggers yourself with the equipment you had on the Lexington. Apparently, they were never widely adopted.
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Actually, you're wrong on all three counts. The Academy manual implies that both the Crossbow and the Morningstar are seeing frontline action. And according to the Armada manual, the Armada craft (on both sides) are actually common in front-line sectors.

That having been said, while we know the designations for the Crossbow and the Morningstar, we don't know the designations for the Armada ships... only in the case of the Wraith do we have any reasons to believe that it's a new ship. And even then, that may not necessarily be the case... maybe the Wraith we see in the Academy simulator is so much smaller because it's a new version of an older ship - the way that the Rapier II shrunk between WC1 and WC2.

Oh, and regardless of what the manuals may say, it would be silly to believe that the Rapier really only turns at 10 dps. That would require 3.6 minutes for a single rotation. So, unless your copy of WC1 had "Wait Commander" written on it, I think we can discount that possibility :).
 
That having been said, while we know the designations for the Crossbow and the Morningstar, we don't know the designations for the Armada ships... only in the case of the Wraith do we have any reasons to believe that it's a new ship. And even then, that may not necessarily be the case... maybe the Wraith we see in the Academy simulator is so much smaller because it's a new version of an older ship - the way that the Rapier II shrunk between WC1 and WC2.
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Ehh, that's sort of stretching it -- it seems clear from the Academy manual that the Wraith is a new design. The fact that it's a front line fighter in Armada is probably to be expected -- since Armada takes place one to two years after Academy (and look at how quickly the aforementioned Crossbow and Morningstar went from prototype to front line fighter).

Oh, and regardless of what the manuals may say, it would be silly to believe that the Rapier really only turns at 10 dps. That would require 3.6 minutes for a single rotation. So, unless your copy of WC1 had "Wait Commander" written on it, I think we can discount that possibility .
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IIRC, all you have to do is add a zero at the end of each number... or you can view them as 'comparitive' data.

Actually, we do not see Hellcats in 2654, at least not the Hellcat V. Why? Simple - the Hellcat V is F-86, and in 2654, the F-44 is only about to be brought onto the frontlines. The only way the Hellcat V could be around in 2654 is if it was actually CF-86, making it older than the CF-105 Scimitar. This leads us to conclude that the ship we see in the cartoon is some other ship that looks very similar to the not-yet-invented Hellcat V.
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Well, I don't know if we can claim for certain that they're not Hellcats -- the CF-86 explanation actually makes a heck of a lot of sense given that they're just trainers.

That said, I've always been a big fan of tha absolutely non-canon explanation that they're Wildcat class fighters, as seen in Action Stations. Seems like a fitting tribute to the similarity between the F4F Wildcat and the far superior F6F Hellcat in World War 2...

Arrows are a different story, of course, since we don't know their designation number. But if that really was an Arrow we saw in the cartoon, then that would certainly be a good reason to believe there's no more Arrows in 2681
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I'm fairly certain that there's a comment in the WCP Guide (or possibly the ICIS Manual) that the Arrow has been retired. I'll have to check when I get home.
 
Originally posted by Haesslich
Talk to LOAF about the maneuverability,
.

.
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Well ,LOAF answered Haesslich,I told you ;)

Quarto: Couldnt the Hellcat just kept its designation through years ?I mean maybe Hellcat 1 was made before Scimitar and maybe it was totally different than the newer V and VI.And the new Hellcats (V,VI or maybe IV,III who knows) came to service after Scimitar
 
Originally posted by Haesslich
And to take a present-day example...

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-35.htm

According to FAS, . . .
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That's all well and good, but the F-35 is not ready for frontline use, else we would be using it in Iraq right now. Same goes for the F-22, still being tested. I kindof see the WCP situation like whats going to happen in the coming years, when the F-22 and the F-35 begin replacing their predacessors. In other words, in the WCP universe the Midway is the testbed that is going to fast become the status quo, but as of Prophecy I think the Cat, Thud, Bow, Excaliber and the upgraded versions of the WC2 fighters are still in service, just on their way out.
There's a similar thread going on in the UE forum. And as is stated there, we are talking about a complete change in operational doctorine within Confed. Changes like that take time.

C-ya
 
Originally posted by Viper61
That's all well and good, but the F-35 is not ready for frontline use, else we would be using it in Iraq right now. Same goes for the F-22, still being tested. I kindof see the WCP situation like whats going to happen in the coming years, when the F-22 and the F-35 begin replacing their predacessors. In other words, in the WCP universe the Midway is the testbed that is going to fast become the status quo, but as of Prophecy I think the Cat, Thud, Bow, Excaliber and the upgraded versions of the WC2 fighters are still in service, just on their way out.
There's a similar thread going on in the UE forum. And as is stated there, we are talking about a complete change in operational doctorine within Confed. Changes like that take time.

C-ya
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And yet you're assuming the ALL the fighters we have on Midway's deck are coming out that year? As far as we can tell, the Vampires are the newest fighters coming into production, to judge by the fact that we have to have them brought out to us while we're on a shakedown cruise which turns into a full-fledged mission.

I'd suggest that the Piranhas, Tigersharks, and Panthers, among others, are already fighters which are well deployed througout the fleet by this time, ten years after WC4.

TCSTigerClaw's main point was that 'older fighters are cheaper, and thus we'll see them everywhere since they are cheaper'. My F-35 example was to point out that was a fallacy; older fighters may indeed be more expensive than newer ones, and if they provide less capability, can end up costing a LOT more money if you want to upgrade them to something approaching modern standards.

We know the Thud and the Excalibur are in use; we see them flying off the Eisen's deck. Older fighters like Hellcats are probably more likely to be used as second-line garrison or home guard craft.
 
Originally posted by TCSTigersClaw
Well ,LOAF answered Haesslich,I told you ;)

Quarto: Couldnt the Hellcat just kept its designation through years ?I mean maybe Hellcat 1 was made before Scimitar and maybe it was totally different than the newer V and VI.And the new Hellcats (V,VI or maybe IV,III who knows) came to service after Scimitar
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If it was 'totally different', it wouldn't be a Hellcat. You keep the designation when the airframe's basically the same, as is the design.
 
Originally posted by Haesslich
If it was 'totally different', it wouldn't be a Hellcat. You keep the designation when the airframe's basically the same, as is the design.
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Sure it would be. Numbers after the name in Confed refer to unique airframes. Confed uses letters for variants within a fighter class.
 
Originally posted by TC
Sure it would be. Numbers after the name in Confed refer to unique airframes. Confed uses letters for variants within a fighter class.
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So the Thunderbolt VI and VII (WC3, WCP) are unique airframes?
 
No. Thunderbolts in WC3 and WCP are both Mark VII. Since they appear to have different characteristics, they would be HF-66 followed by whatever letter designating their model.
 
Originally posted by pygmypiranha
Yes that is correct, Thunderbolts in WC3 and WCP are both Mark VII.
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I stand corrected. And the Prophecy Gold manual lists the Thunderbolt in use in Secret Ops as the HF-66-D variant.

Let me try to remember, however - do we see a Hellcat VI in WC4, or is it just a Hellcat V?
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
Ehh, that's sort of stretching it -- it seems clear from the Academy manual that the Wraith is a new design. The fact that it's a front line fighter in Armada is probably to be expected -- since Armada takes place one to two years after Academy (and look at how quickly the aforementioned Crossbow and Morningstar went from prototype to front line fighter).
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Oh, I know it's a stretch - it's not a theory I'm prepared to defend to any great lengths. I just wanted to point out that there are always alternative explanations, and fighters can be older than they seem :).

That said, I've always been a big fan of tha absolutely non-canon explanation that they're Wildcat class fighters, as seen in Action Stations. Seems like a fitting tribute to the similarity between the F4F Wildcat and the far superior F6F Hellcat in World War 2...
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Yeah, I like that theory as well. I mean, the CF-86 explanation would work if they were just trainers, but then we see them in WC3 and 4.

TCSTigersClaw: no, when a fighter gets a number added after its name, it's a completely new design. Updates of an existing design have the letter after the designation number change - so, F-86C would be an update of the F-86B (or A).
 
Let me try to remember, however - do we see a Hellcat VI in WC4, or is it just a Hellcat V?
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The roman numeral designates an entirely new class of fighter. In 'real life' the P-47 Tunderbolt (WW2 fighter) has absolutely nothing to do with the A-10 Thunderbolt II (Warthog tank-killer). The Hellcat IV, whatever it may be, probably has absolutely nothing to do with the Hellcat V.

(The exception, of course, is the Dralthi II... but then Halcyon gives the reasons for that designation...)

And yet you're assuming the ALL the fighters we have on Midway's deck are coming out that year? As far as we can tell, the Vampires are the newest fighters coming into production, to judge by the fact that we have to have them brought out to us while we're on a shakedown cruise which turns into a full-fledged mission.
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Well, a couple of points...

* The newest fighter is probably the Wasp interceptor, since it's the "F-110", indicating that it came after the F-108 Panther and the F-109 Vampire.

* Strictly speaking, the reason the Vampires (and Devastators) are brought to us is because the 'elite' squadron assigned them had not yet been assigned to the Midway. They also brought, for instance, Wasps... which we already had several of.

* To be especially anal, the Midway has a Thunderbolt VII squadron -- which certainly isn't new, since they entered service in 2668 (we don't fly them -- but they show up in SO).

I'd suggest that the Piranhas, Tigersharks, and Panthers, among others, are already fighters which are well deployed througout the fleet by this time, ten years after WC4.
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Numerically speaking, the F-105 Tigershark and F-106 Piranha were probably entering service around WCIV (in 2673)... since they were assigned designations before the F-107 Lance. Since the Tigershark replaced the Hellcat V, they probably weren't especially widespread as of 2673.

Now, as for the two pairs of craft... it seems more likely that they entered service at the same time -- they were probably part of the same development programme. Afterall, the Shrike/Devestator and the Panther/Vampire are each designated 'Class A' and 'Class B' fighters... and together the two ships replace a single older ship role.
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
The exception, of course, is the Dralthi II... but then Halcyon gives the reasons for that designation...
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IMHO, they were pretty weak reasons. AFAIK, they were just Dralthi Is with mass drivers and stronger shields. A mere upgrade, I think.

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
...the Midway has a Thunderbolt VII squadron -- which certainly isn't new, since they entered service in 2668 (we don't fly them -- but they show up in SO).
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Just wondering... is it possible that the Midway picked up those Thunderbolts after WCP, similar to how the Concordia picked up Blair and Shadow in WC2 (requesting assistance from nearby Confed units)? Or perhaps it couldn't get enough replacements of the new fighters and simply grabbed Thunderbolts to 'fill' the gap?
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
* To be especially anal, the Midway has a Thunderbolt VII squadron -- which certainly isn't new, since they entered service in 2668 (we don't fly them -- but they show up in SO).
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Mind you, I think it's possible that the Thunderbolts were only assigned to the ship after WCP. After all, the WCP manual doesn't list Thunderbolts in any squadron... maybe the Midway picked up some Thunderbolts for the SO operations in order to make up for the fighters lost during WCP?
 
Mind you, I think it's possible that the Thunderbolts were only assigned to the ship after WCP. After all, the WCP manual doesn't list Thunderbolts in any squadron... maybe the Midway picked up some Thunderbolts for the SO operations in order to make up for the fighters lost during WCP?
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Possible, but it seems more likely that they were always there -- Confed apparently has lots and lots of extra WCP-era fighters lying around (they're constantly sending new ones ot the Cerberus:))... it'd be odd for a squadron to get decade-old craft as a replacement, under those circumstances.

IMHO, they were pretty weak reasons. AFAIK, they were just Dralthi Is with mass drivers and stronger shields. A mere upgrade, I think.
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I kind of like the theory that *all* the 'oval' Dralthi (WC1, SM, SM2, WCA) are 'Dralthi II', and that Halcyon was just letting us know that the new variant was classed as a II rather than a I or something (with the I's being the movie Dralthi).
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
I kind of like the theory that *all* the 'oval' Dralthi (WC1, SM, SM2, WCA) are 'Dralthi II', and that Halcyon was just letting us know that the new variant was classed as a II rather than a I or something (with the I's being the movie Dralthi).
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wc2drakhri.jpg


And what about this mysterious oval Dralthi-like ship from WC2 codenamed "Drakhri"?:)
 
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