Defecting to the Kilrathi

[KoN21]

Something that has been bothering me ever since the Jazz days of WC2 has been the reality of defection to the cats. The whole thing just doesn't make sense to me. Could you really trust these huge clawed and fanged beasts when it came down to it? What would keep them from ripping you apart when pay day arrived? It just seems that based on their immensely superior physical characteristics, that the cats could easily dominate us Terrans in hand to hand... ah hem hand to claw combat. I'm having difficulty finding any incentive for the cats to treat a defector any better than the rest of our furless race.

Is there any insight to this seemingly impossible symbiotic relationship between Terran defectors and their Kilrathi hosts?

I don't have as much trouble doubting that the reverse is conceivable. I'm sure no one was really happy to see Hobbes when he first came to fight for ConFed, but opening up your mouth might not be wise unless you wanted to witness him rip your heart out of your chest.

Were there other Kilrathi wartime defectors or is Rhalga the only one? If so, what could possibly be their reason for defecting?


(Those furballs have been giving me nightmares for years especially when my WC3 cd began skipping during a scene where the Emperor is laughing... it's very traumatizing.)

 

[KoN21]

On a side note, I was wondering why Roberts decided to make his Kilrathi furless in the movie. I really bought into the big cat idea from WC3 and found them especially terrifying... I was not as frightened by their bald eel looking contemporaries. Except in the scene where one just pops out of nowhere in Blair's face and he has to blast him away. I jumped back in my seat when that happened.

What's the reasoning behind this major change?

 

[jaeger]

from what I remember there were whole worlds that defected to the feds Im not going to try and spell them becuase I dont remeber how they were spelled or the exact number. As far as the madarins go, they thought the humans were going to loose and thought that by helping out the cats that they would be spared in the end. Somone please correct me if I am wrong. My memory is a lil fuzzy at the moment

 

[McGruff]

One only need watch the first episode of WC Academy to see how the Kilrathi treat helpful human defectors once they are no longer needed.
http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?t=20174&highlight=academy+episodes

On the other hand, the Kilrathi world Ghora Khar rebelled against the Emperor and defected to the Confederation, which happened to be where stealth fighter technology was being developed. Thrakhath ordered their shipyards destroyed, drastically setting back progress on his program.

What's the reasoning behind this major change?

I'd like to know that myself.

 

[Gamer8585]

from what I remember there were whole worlds that defected to the feds Im not going to try and spell them becuase I dont remeber how they were spelled or the exact number. As far as the madarins go, they thought the humans were going to loose and thought that by helping out the cats that they would be spared in the end. Somone please correct me if I am wrong. My memory is a lil fuzzy at the moment

Yeah, thats pretty much correct IIRC. I think that the Mandarins were banking 1) on Con-Fed loosing the war and 2) on the Kat's honor system. Of course, realistically, the best they could have probably hoped for was to be the "House Slaves" of the Kat's.

Ah, how I loved nuking Ayer's Rock, and force feeding Maj. Colson Mass Driver & Particle Cannon shots.

 

[Blaster]

Considering the types of weapons available to both sides it doesn’t seem like being larger and stronger would make a whole lot of difference in that kind of situation. A human would not have much trouble killing a kilrathi using a gun and the kilrathi in the Academy episode didn’t need much physical strength, he didn’t even touch the trader.

If I was a human defector I think I would be more concerned if they didn’t allow me to carry a weapon than I would be about their size.

 

[KoN21]

Even with the weapon, if you're a human defector, it's likely that you're doing it alone and not so likely that you meet with the cats in a one on one situation. They are likely to have numbers on you too, that plus their enormous size and strength makes it a little uncomfortable for me.

If I was a guest of the Emperors I would only sleep with a gun under my pillow, but that gun wouldn't be for the cats, but for me if they decided to ambush me.

 

[Shaggy]

IIRC, the change to furless Kats for the movie was to try and make them scarier, and it might have worked had they gone the CG route. Personally I loved the WC3 Kats, WC4 not so much.

I remeber reading that the Mandarins's motivations for helping the Kilrathi were ultimately to convert them over to a human mind set. There was spme reference to ancient China, but I could be wrong.

Size doesn't necessarily have to equate to the upper hand in battle. Granted if you had a Kat and a human who were not trained in any form of combat or martial art then the kat would come out on top, but there are martial arts discplines that do overcome size imbalances to great effect. Being big would help, but only in straight unarmed hand to hand fighting, and it's not really sure thing.

To quote the Emperor: Never let it be forgotten that it is when the foe is near vanquished that he is most dangerous.
Iprobably got that a little wrong but the message is the same. A small desperate critter can really hurt a larger predator when faced with imminent death.

 

[LeHah]

Something that has been bothering me ever since the Jazz days of WC2 has been the reality of defection to the cats. The whole thing just doesn't make sense to me. Could you really trust these huge clawed and fanged beasts when it came down to it?

Various reasons exist - though it sounds like you're more interested in "treason" than outright "defection". A number of the novels covered this question in brief - in Fleet Action, a cabinet member had a son that was being held hostage and they were using her to manipulate the government into a long term stand down while the Kilrathi primed for their assault on Earth.

The Heart Of The Tiger novel mentions that humans were brainwashed while in concentration camps to believe their species was "subhuman" (for lack of a better word) or "animals".

Others, like the gentleman McGruff mentioned, did it for revenge or money or any number of "generic" reasons.

On a side note, I was wondering why Roberts decided to make his Kilrathi furless in the movie.

Roberts was never satisfied with how the Kilrathi looked in Wing Commander III or Wing Commander IV. Animatronic technology didn't allow him to make them look as "alien" as he'd have liked. When the movie came around, he decided to do something completely different. Most didn't like it and Roberts had a very hard time shooting their scenes (as you can tell, the suits were very hard to move around in) and was somewhat dissatisfied with the end result in the movie.

He had later said that he wanted to try CG with the Kilrathi, if given the chance for a WC movie sequel.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Something that has been bothering me ever since the Jazz days of WC2 has been the reality of defection to the cats. The whole thing just doesn't make sense to me. Could you really trust these huge clawed and fanged beasts when it came down to it? What would keep them from ripping you apart when pay day arrived? It just seems that based on their immensely superior physical characteristics, that the cats could easily dominate us Terrans in hand to hand... ah hem hand to claw combat. I'm having difficulty finding any incentive for the cats to treat a defector any better than the rest of our furless race.

Is there any insight to this seemingly impossible symbiotic relationship between Terran defectors and their Kilrathi hosts?

It depends on the individual, I suppose, and it's not a question specific to the Kilrathi -- how does anyone in the business of betraying his country trust or be trusted by anyone? I think it boils down to a general societal issue: why not take what you want and kill people you don't like? Because you don't want other people killing you or taking your things. Why should the powerful Kilrathi treat a 'used' traitor well? Because you want others to work for you in the future.

There's some specific differences in much of Wing Commander, though -- the men and women who betray the Confederation (with perhaps the exception of Mr. Ortiz here: http://ccg.jetlag.us/v/All/k-lu-traitor.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=3) always do so under ideological grounds rather than for money/safety/pleasure.

The Society of Mandarins believed that ending the war was worth suffering under the Kilrathi lash, and gave of themselves for that reason. Burroughs, on Academy, betrayed out of revenge -- feeling that the Confederation had abandoned him (it's also likely that he was, to some extent, crazy). Secretary Jamison betrayed because she believed it the only way to save her son, a Kilrathi POW. Awful as these people are, they did not deal with the Kilrathi for themselves, and so don't fit the question.

Jazz, on the other hand, was simply crazy: he hated the specific Tiger's Claw pilots that he blamed for his brother's death. Thrakhath "turned" him by doing things like awarding him medals and giving him status among the Kilrathi... and this allowed him to become a full fledged agent and later a figurehead for the Kilrathi fifth column. By treating him well, the Kilrathi did more than simply make use of his original goal (destroy the Tiger's Claw), and were able to keep him as a spy for twelve years... and also use him to steal the Morningstar and embarass the fleet.

Were there other Kilrathi wartime defectors or is Rhalga the only one? If so, what could possibly be their reason for defecting?

Yes, and like their human equivalents they did so for varying reasons! During Wing Commander II (and SO1), four Kilrathi star systems leave the empire and join the Human war effort: Ghorah Khar, N’Tanya, K’arakh, and Shariha. They do this for political reasons, disagreeing with the way the Empire is run.

More specific examples include Hajjnah, a Kilrathi scientist who defected in the late 60s and brought over information on new spacecraft and weapons. There's Kirha, Ralgha's loyal retainer. He arrived with Hobbes and is a significant player in the novels. He's not a willing conscript, but because of the way Kilrathi honor works he is beholden to serve his new masters -- and he does, to his death. A Kilrathi officer named Bhok attempts to defect in Wing Commander Academy's "Price of Victory" episode. He gives Blair coordinates for his carrier, which Tolwyn uses to launch a sneak attack (Bhok dies in the battle). Baron Jukaga, one of the highest leaders in the Empire, was highly sympathetic to human culture. At the Batle of Terra, he went to his death while preventing the final world-destroying warheads from being launched at Earth (of course, no human or Kilrathi knows this). In the Voices of War manual, a Kilrathi officer is executed for showing sympathy to a human POW.

There's also this guy, the opposite of Mr. Ortiz: http://ccg.jetlag.us/v/All/c-lu-traitor.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=3

 

[KoN21]

Thanks guys, that makes it a lot more clear to me. I still can't believe that Hobbes was a sleeper... I'm hoping none of the other Kilrathi-turned-kittens were Manchurian candidates as well.

Speaking of the movie- I was wondering if there were any mods that are loosely based on it. I think a mod based on the movie fighters and carriers would be really awesome.

This is just an idea, I have absolutely no skills in creating mods and don't even know what it entails, but I think it would be really enjoyable.

 

[AD]

Thanks guys, that makes it a lot more clear to me. I still can't believe that Hobbes was a sleeper... I'm hoping none of the other Kilrathi-turned-kittens were Manchurian candidates as well.

Speaking of the movie- I was wondering if there were any mods that are loosely based on it. I think a mod based on the movie fighters and carriers would be really awesome.

This is just an idea, I have absolutely no skills in creating mods and don't even know what it entails, but I think it would be really enjoyable.

I have an idea for one but It has to wait until my other things are out of the way lest I start something else and not finish it.

 

[Bob McDob]

I think the whole point has always been that Terran defectors are insane. I'd say Burroughs absolutely is (the whole betraying-your-country-because-you-failed-a-psych-exam-to-fight-in-the-military thing kind of speaks for itself.) Jamison is probably clinically psychotic, or at the very least extremely delusional, to believe that a state which has very clearly and repeatedly confirmed its determination to totally subjugate humanity would grant any sort of clemency (she of course as noted earlier did it for her son, but I would think that given the history of the Kilrathi not only with humanity but with *every single species* that anyone with the capacity for reason could see a trend here....)

Of course, Jamison is hardly alone in this; the whole Society of Mandarins are a group of clinical lunatics (something even a second-liner like Shadow can see.) They look at the history of great human civilizations (Rome, for instance, or the succesive Chinese empires from which their name derives) and see that, historically, the conquerors have frequently become domesticized by the cultures they conquer, effectively becoming the conquered. They ignore the fact that these civilizations met their fate at the hands of rough-hewn barbarians for whom the glittering cities must have been amazing wonders. The Kilrathi are not barbarians; they possess an extremely sophisticated culture of their own and a level of technology on par with humans, and of course they are far more powerful physically and much more violent. Human history has known parallels to this, but never to these extremes; I don't think it's seen much in science fiction, either.

I've never been quite able to grasp this element myself; if the intellectual abhorrance can be overcome or overlooked, surely the instinctive primal fears would be much, much harder. In any case, it doesn't seem like something the Mandarins have trouble with; maybe they're the extreme adverse reaction to Confed's propaganda style.

Speaking of the movie- I was wondering if there were any mods that are loosely based on it. I think a mod based on the movie fighters and carriers would be really awesome.

Starlancer?

 

[Quarto]

Jamison is probably clinically psychotic, or at the very least extremely delusional, to believe that a state which has very clearly and repeatedly confirmed its determination to totally subjugate humanity would grant any sort of clemency (she of course as noted earlier did it for her son, but I would think that given the history of the Kilrathi not only with humanity but with *every single species* that anyone with the capacity for reason could see a trend here....)

That's not true at all - you're actually arguing against the established facts. We know the Kilrathi didn't simply wipe out all the previous races they met. And, given how the war was going, it is quite conceivable that they would keep a prisoner alive in order to put pressure on Jamison.

Besides that, you're arguing from some kind of bizarre perspective where people are either 100% rational, or clinically insane. Reality is nothing of the kind - nobody is ever rational, and hardly anyone is clinically insane. Jamison certainly wasn't. It's hard to think of better proof of a woman's sanity that she would do anything she can to protect her son. Yes, she should have known that there was no hope he'd live - but it's not something that's easy to accept. Ultimately, Jamison is not even an especially evil character - she's merely tragic.

(heck, going by your logic, Spirit was clinically insane too)

Of course, Jamison is hardly alone in this; the whole Society of Mandarins are a group of clinical lunatics (something even a second-liner like Shadow can see.) They look at the history of great human civilizations (Rome, for instance, or the succesive Chinese empires from which their name derives) and see that, historically, the conquerors have frequently become domesticized by the cultures they conquer, effectively becoming the conquered. They ignore the fact that these civilizations met their fate at the hands of rough-hewn barbarians for whom the glittering cities must have been amazing wonders. The Kilrathi are not barbarians; they possess an extremely sophisticated culture of their own and a level of technology on par with humans, and of course they are far more powerful physically and much more violent. Human history has known parallels to this, but never to these extremes; I don't think it's seen much in science fiction, either.

Again, you're ignoring the established facts. The Kilrathi are not blood-thirsty mass murderers bent on wiping out humanity. Their objective, when the war was first started, was to conquer and enslave mankind. They already had millions, more likely billions of slaves. They attacked mankind with Varni-manufactured torpedoes.

What would happen had the Kilrathi been able to achieve easy victory? Logically, the easier their victory, the more slaves they would have had, and therefore, the more they would themselves have become reliant on slaves. You have ten slaves, you'll manage them yourself with a whip. You have twenty slaves, you'll hire someone to watch over them. You have a thousand slaves, and not only will you hire people to watch over them, but you'll also pay some of the slaves to form a sort of internal government. Even in the Warsaw Ghetto, it wasn't the Nazis alone that drove Jews into the trains headed for Auschwitz - they had a specially-established Jewish police force assisting them. Similarly, after occupying Germany, the first thing the Soviets started looking for was German communists whom they could appoint to govern the country in their stead. With hundreds or thousands of entire planets inhabited by human slaves, who knows if the Kilrathi wouldn't have actually signed some kind of "treaty" with the Confederation, whereby a Mandarin-ruled Confederation would become a vassal state.

So, there was nothing insane at all about the Mandarins' plan. Had the Kilrathi won, the Mandarins would most likely have indeed been chosen to govern mankind. Of course, even then, it's hard to imagine the Mandarins converting the Kilrathi to human culture... but who says that was ever their goal? Communists also always argued they were fighting to establish equality and freedom and all, but in reality, whatever the rank-and-file members may have believed, the higher-ups in their parties always fought only to establish their own power and fortune.

About the only thing that the Mandarins overlooked was the changing nature of the war. The longer the war went on, the more the Kilrathi leaned towards the option of wiping out mankind entirely. But then again, they also respected mankind more and more. It wasn't until the truce that the Kilrathi not only lost all respect for humanity, but also decided to wipe them out (...a decision that either was ignored, or quickly taken back - in spite of Thrakhath's order to kill all the human slaves, Confed still liberated a few slave camps in the last year of the war).

 

[Thunderbolt]

About the only thing that the Mandarins overlooked was the changing nature of the war. The longer the war went on, the more the Kilrathi leaned towards the option of wiping out mankind entirely. But then again, they also respected mankind more and more. It wasn't until the truce that the Kilrathi not only lost all respect for humanity, but also decided to wipe them out (...a decision that either was ignored, or quickly taken back - in spite of Thrakhath's order to kill all the human slaves, Confed still liberated a few slave camps in the last year of the war).

Thats true IMO. The kilrathi probably were intending to enslave humanity but when the kats were losing in 2668 they clearly decided to exterminate humanity. I guess the Kilrathi realised that humanity would have eventually won especailly due to their technological advancemnts which only failed once Earth was attacked.

But also remember that as any war goes on morals are gradually lost and war becomes much more psychological. Toturing and murdering civilians can even become acceptable to soldiers . This can be observed in many wars a good example being during the Vietnam conflict. Most of humanity would be wiped out by the kilrathi before they would proabably enslaved the survivors as the kilrathi had already nuked the inner home worlds and then prepared to do the same to Earth. And even after that the Emperor was laughing as can be seen in the losing scene of WC3.


My question is though why would the Kilrathi lose respect for humans? Surely in 2668 when they were losing they should have realised that humans were honourable warriors. The Kilrathi had to lure the humans into a false peace and then destroy Earth which is the most dishournable way to defeat an enemy. Perhaps the Tarawa's raid to Kilrah hardened the Kilrathi's perspective.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I agree wholeheartedly with Quarto, and add that simply justifying actions by labeling everyone crazy is a very cheap trick.

In fact, I would like to clarify my position on Jazz -- by crazy I don't mean that he's insane. If he were, presumably the Confederation would not have sentenced him to death. Like the Mandarins, Burroughs and Jamison, we *can* understand his motives and thought processes.

Speaking of which, I forgot some important characters in my treason survey earlier -- the various Pilgrim radicals who sided with the Confederation during the war. Their motives are clearer and more understandable... but Amity Aristee, Bill Wilson, Jay Sansky and much of the TCS Olympus' crew belong on this list.

Also, the crew of the Gwenhyvar, who were apparently kept alive and forced to betray the Confederation (Spirit talks about this in SM1).

The Kilrathi are not barbarians; they possess an extremely sophisticated culture of their own and a level of technology on par with humans, and of course they are far more powerful physically and much more violent.

We, the omniscient third person reader knows this. The Society of Mandarins does not -- think of how Japanese culture was understood in the United States during the Pacific War. The terrible enemy are always barbarians.

My question is though why would the Kilrathi lose respect for humans? Surely in 2668 when they were losing they should have realised that humans were honourable warriors. The Kilrathi had to lure the humans into a false peace and then destroy Earth which is the most dishournable way to defeat an enemy. Perhaps the Tarawa's raid to Kilrah hardened the Kilrathi's perspective.

Other way around -- humans won respect for the raid, and lost it by falling for the truce. In the first situation, they were warriors... in the second they became prey animals, unwilling to press their advantage.

 

[Quarto]

Thats true IMO. The kilrathi probably were intending to enslave humanity but when the kats were losing in 2668 they clearly decided to exterminate humanity. I guess the Kilrathi realised that humanity would have eventually won especailly due to their technological advancemnts which only failed once Earth was attacked.

We do not actually know what the Kilrathi policy after the battle of Terra was (or at least, I don't remember if the WC3 novel had anything to say in this regard). On the other hand, the decision to wipe out all humanity during the battle of Terra campaign is not necessarily something they actually intended to carry out. In Fleet Action, the Kilrathi appear to be using the threat to wipe out humanity as a means of persuading Tolwyn to lay down arms. Prince Thrakhath certainly intended to nuke Earth (note that in doing so, he went against the Emperor's wish, however!), and on the losing path in WC3, we do see Earth destroyed... but does this mean anything? On the winning path, the Confederation destroys Kilrah, but that doesn't mean they intend to wipe out all Kilrathi.

All in all... knowing what we know about Prince Thrakhath, it seems likely that he would have wanted to eradicate humanity at all cost, if only to get his revenge (...for his father, for being shot down by Blair, for being captured by Paladin, for Vukar Tag and the raid on Kilrah, for his defeat at the battle of Terra, etc. - he had his reasons ). But we do not know if the Emperor planned to go along with this. I can certainly imagine the Emperor deciding that with the Mantu supposedly on their way back, the Empire needs all the slaves it can get... but then again, I can also imagine the Emperor deciding that, again because of the Mantu, the Empire cannot afford to waste resources guarding slaves from a species as troublesome as the humans. So, it really could have gone either way.

(one other thing - at no point did the Kilrathi think the Confederation was going to win. But, on the other hand, the Confederation did at one point conclude that the Kilrathi were going to win - that was the reason for starting the Genetic Enhancement project)

My question is though why would the Kilrathi lose respect for humans? Surely in 2668 when they were losing they should have realised that humans were honourable warriors. The Kilrathi had to lure the humans into a false peace and then destroy Earth which is the most dishournable way to defeat an enemy. Perhaps the Tarawa's raid to Kilrah hardened the Kilrathi's perspective.

Fleet Action specifically tells us (through Kirha, who as a Kilrathi presumably knows what he's talking abot ) that the Kilrathi lost their respect for humans when they agreed to the truce. Up until that point, humanity's ability to stop the Kilrathi greatly impressed them, and they had gradually come to regard mankind as more than a mere prey species. But then along came the truce. The Kilrathi, even those who had been in Confed POW camps for a long time and had no idea what was going on at the front, understood that this could only be a trick - that the Empire wouldn't have made such an offer in good faith. Since the humans fell for such an obvious trick, it was clear that they didn't deserve any respect after all.

 

[Thunderbolt]

Fleet Action specifically tells us (through Kirha, who as a Kilrathi presumably knows what he's talking abot ) that the Kilrathi lost their respect for humans when they agreed to the truce. Up until that point, humanity's ability to stop the Kilrathi greatly impressed them, and they had gradually come to regard mankind as more than a mere prey species. But then along came the truce. The Kilrathi, even those who had been in Confed POW camps for a long time and had no idea what was going on at the front, understood that this could only be a trick - that the Empire wouldn't have made such an offer in good faith. Since the humans fell for such an obvious trick, it was clear that they didn't deserve any respect after all.

Well that still seems very hypocritical for the kilrathi to beg for peace without losing respect for themselves and there own effort. If humans did that the kilrathi would have no respect for humans in any way. So I still think thats a funny ideology for the kilrathi to have. The Kilrathi IMO were no more honourable than humans as there is a differance between a warrior and a killer and the kilrathi seemed to have a lot of difficulty finding that distinction. So it seems to be a matter of double standards to me. But I guess that comes from a perspective that is different from our or at least my own

 

[NinjaLA]

Actually, it WAS hypocritical.. Maloc's speech at the end of WC3 all but admits that the kilrathi ruse was beneath them as a predator species. Which is why he decides to make peace and cut all human influence out of at least his part of the kilrathi empire. Because humans had made them weak.

 

[KoN21]

Yeah, but who left him (Melek) in charge?
There were probably other nobles who weren't in Kilrah when the T-bomb hit, they would be viable contenders for the leadership of the Kilrathi. Even opponents to the Emperor or Thrakath could have turned the destruction of Kilrah around in a way that favored them seeking the throne. The Kilrathi still had the deadly arsenal to keep the fight going after Kilrah. It shocks me that all of the potential leaders had lost the desire to fight.
Imagine if during WWII, the Allies decided instead to drop more atomic bombs and the emperor was killed. It is unlikely that the Japanese would have ever given up. They would've fought to the last man. The US understood how important the emperor was for the people and that is why his words telling his people to give up the war were so influential.
Sure they lost their homeworld, but the Kilrathi a race covering numerous systems spread out over many sectors can't just give up the will to fight, unless the will to fight was not theirs in the first place but the Emperor's, in which case it died with him.