Quarto
Unknown Enemy
I think we've been over this already, a few posts back. The Kilrathi need slaves, and they would probably need humans to help them govern the slaves.
Defecting to the Kilrathi
- Thread starter KoN21
- Start date
Sylvester
Vice Admiral
Here is a question about Jazz and his actions during the 12 years he was a traitor...
I can see how someone in intelligence or logistics could be an effective defector, they don't personally kill any Kilrathi warriors. But Jazz was a crack fighter pilot who I assume shot down his fair share of Kilrathi ship during the time he was working for the Kilrathi. Would the Kilrathi really expend capital ships and dozens of fighters for the services of one defector who after destruction of the Tiger's Claw had served most of his purpose?
I can see how someone in intelligence or logistics could be an effective defector, they don't personally kill any Kilrathi warriors. But Jazz was a crack fighter pilot who I assume shot down his fair share of Kilrathi ship during the time he was working for the Kilrathi. Would the Kilrathi really expend capital ships and dozens of fighters for the services of one defector who after destruction of the Tiger's Claw had served most of his purpose?
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
The Wing Commander I & II Ultimate Strategy Guide actually does point out that Jazz's killscore is suspiciously low.
That said, yes -- Jazz was a huge asset for the Kilrathi. The fact that the Concordia was dedicated to launching the same attack on K'Tithrak Mang eleven years later is proof of that. Beyond that, just think about his position. Want to know what Tolwyn, one of the men running the war, is doing? You have a man on his flagship. Want to capture the new Morningstar fighter? Man on the inside. Etc.
Jazz was nothing, too. These are the same Kilrathi who sacraficed an entire cruiser and his complement to plant a non-responsive sleeper agent into the Space Force... and then allowed him to wreak havoc in dogfights and such to save him, presumably, for a rainy day. In comparison, Colson was cheap.
That said, yes -- Jazz was a huge asset for the Kilrathi. The fact that the Concordia was dedicated to launching the same attack on K'Tithrak Mang eleven years later is proof of that. Beyond that, just think about his position. Want to know what Tolwyn, one of the men running the war, is doing? You have a man on his flagship. Want to capture the new Morningstar fighter? Man on the inside. Etc.
Jazz was nothing, too. These are the same Kilrathi who sacraficed an entire cruiser and his complement to plant a non-responsive sleeper agent into the Space Force... and then allowed him to wreak havoc in dogfights and such to save him, presumably, for a rainy day. In comparison, Colson was cheap.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Hmm, I've always figured that Hobbes' defection was an accident - unless Thrakhath had far greater control over the rebellion than we can reasonably assume (after all, if he had such control, then they wouldn't have been able to take over the planet), he would have had no way of knowing Hobbes would be ordered to defect to the humans. It seems to me that Hobbes had been meant to infiltrate the rebellion, and his defection to Confed was regarded as a rather undesireable accident - it certainly doesn't seem like the Kilrathi were trying to avoid killing him during his defection, so it may have been something that was decided later.
(on a sidenote, one thing I've always been curious about is the sheer logistics of trying to keep Hobbes alive - it's implied in the WC3 novel that people got rather suspicious when it seemed like the Kilrathi were unwilling to fight Hobbes. Had this been the case during the early years of his career, wouldn't somebody have noticed, or wouldn't Intel have eventually intercepted some Hobbes-related order?)
McGruff
Banned
That makes a heck of a lot of sense. Giving him his personality overlay and then having him 'defect' to the Confederation would be pretty costly to the Kilrathi as we saw, however it would be a one in a million shot that their agent would actually be allowed into Confed military service, let alone placed in a position of trust. Even then, it would be another one in a million that he would have access to extremely sensitive information concerning secret projects or anything even half as important. The Kilrathi seemed to have scored a huge jackpot by chance that they didn't even recognize at first.
I never thought too much about Hobbes' defection, but I think you're right Quarto, he probably was just meant to infiltrate the rebellion and activate during a crucial moment.
However when he defected to Confed it was a potential windfall for Thrakath, however I don't think too many Kilrathi were let in on the secret, because it would negate the effectiveness of the sleeper agent, or like you said, there would have been a comm-intercept that would have Hobbes taken out of action.
The Kilrathi were probably reluctant to fight Hobbes because he was one of there own. It wouldn't make any sense for them to know that Hobbes was supposed to be working for them.
However when he defected to Confed it was a potential windfall for Thrakath, however I don't think too many Kilrathi were let in on the secret, because it would negate the effectiveness of the sleeper agent, or like you said, there would have been a comm-intercept that would have Hobbes taken out of action.
The Kilrathi were probably reluctant to fight Hobbes because he was one of there own. It wouldn't make any sense for them to know that Hobbes was supposed to be working for them.
Delance
Victory, you say?
I find this intriguing. It seems too much to think all those Kilrathi pilots would go easy on Hobbes and get themselves blown to bits. And what business would have random low ranking pilots have about knowing about a sleeper agent so secret that he himself didn't have a clue about his status?
And what about that thing about Hobbes escaping from the Bonnie Heather, did Hobbes lend him a claw?
Knowing that Hobbes is a sleeper agent does really make Thrakath's escape from the Heather more interesting.
If Hobbes didn't help, and Thrakath really did escape thanks to a fluke power failure on the Heather, Blair and Paladin should probably count themselves lucky that the Heather's power DID cut out when it did.
Otherwise, I suspect that Thrakath - rather than allowing himself to be carried back to Confed HQ and interrigated - would have reactivated Hobbes "real" personality to help him escape. The end result would have almost certainly involved Paladin and Blair either being killed, or captured and taken back to Kilrathi HQ for interrigation themselves.
If Hobbes didn't help, and Thrakath really did escape thanks to a fluke power failure on the Heather, Blair and Paladin should probably count themselves lucky that the Heather's power DID cut out when it did.
Otherwise, I suspect that Thrakath - rather than allowing himself to be carried back to Confed HQ and interrigated - would have reactivated Hobbes "real" personality to help him escape. The end result would have almost certainly involved Paladin and Blair either being killed, or captured and taken back to Kilrathi HQ for interrigation themselves.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Thrakhath didn't have the means to wake Hobbes up at that point. It wasn't just a matter of saying "heart of the tiger" - in WC3, Rollins talks about how there was a lot of other stuff hidden in that transmission.
As far as we know, Thrakhath's escape was indeed just a power failure in a ship that's been banged up too many times. Hobbes' status, however, does explain why Thrakhath didn't kill him.
I love that scene in WC Academy when that defector is ejected into space.
Cause the first time I saw that show was years ago one morning on USA. And I was like, cool, a Wing Commander cartoon. And it was refreshing that someone actually died in it.
As opposed to say, G.I. Joe whenever someone would get shot down, you'd always see them parachuting to safety.
Cause the first time I saw that show was years ago one morning on USA. And I was like, cool, a Wing Commander cartoon. And it was refreshing that someone actually died in it.
As opposed to say, G.I. Joe whenever someone would get shot down, you'd always see them parachuting to safety.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Obviously it's speculation either way, but the big question for me would be: if Thrakhath was using Ralgha to infiltrate the rebellion, why was he sent to N'Tanya? I always viewed it the other way around: Ralgha's pre-existing relationship with Hassa meant that he was involved in the rebellion beyond Thrakhath's plans.
Here's another take. As strange as it seems to us, Thrakhath and the Emperor were clearly worried about Blair specifically. Consider "Thrakhath's Vow" in the Kilrathi Saga manual. Before Ralgha defected, Thrakhath swore revenge on Blair specifically for the death of Gilkarg... and in the same letter christened him "Heart of the Tiger" -- Ralgha's trigger. In this light, it seems like Ralgha was an elaborate ploy to hurt the "pilot who has caused us so much trouble".
The Wing Commander III novel mentions that specific pilots have been ordered not to engage Ralgha... but that they don't know any of the reasoning behind the order.
It's possible. The other scene that reads more interestingly is where Ralgha is originally arrested on suspicion of treason in Freedom Flight... only to have Thrakhath personally arrive to free him from a Ghorah Kharran jail.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Well, the trouble with that idea is that it is far too elaborate a ploy. The chances that Hobbes would not only be accepted by Confed, but indeed allowed to serve in the military seem extremely slim. I'm sure the prospect of losing Hobbes wouldn't have bothered Thrakhath, but would he have seen the point of doing anything so complicated without gaining anything from it? Besides, there already was a plan to hurt Blair, through Jazz and the Mandarins. Hobbes ultimately wasn't used until much later - and indeed, on the losing path of WC3, it's possible for him to die without the trigger ever being activated.
Either way, what's most confusing about Hobbes is that the WC novels give us a picture of Thrakhath as a very straight-forward individual, who much prefers brute force over cunning. So, how on earth did he come up with a plan so complex (regardless of whom Hobbes was meant to infiltrate)? And was Hobbes not used for so long because Thrakhath wanted him to infiltrate as deeply as possible... or because he ultimately wanted, if possible, to win without bothering with such tricks?
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
In all fairness, being too elaborate is the problem with *every* Hobbes-fake-personality ploy. I don't think your take has merit here, though. One imagines that Hobbes' programmed persona could do nothing but what he was programmed to do: ingratiate himelf with Confederateion leadership and work towards becoming a fighter pilot. None of this is a natural path, by any means -- he surrendered as a highly ranked captain of the line, not some sort of fighter pilot. He must have specifically worked his way into the Space Force... and presumably that's what he was *supposed* to do.
Additionally, I don't think we really know enough about Jazz to say that he was already in place. The fact that "Thrakhath's Vow" predates Ralgha's defection means that it also predates Jazz's betrayal of the Tiger's Claw (it was made the day after the destruction of the Sivar -- the Tiger's Claw probably wasn't even home yet).
The idea that Hobbes might have been created as part of Thrakhath's unusually specific vow of revenge against Blair interests me for a few reasons. Consider Hobbes' unusual and immediate support of Blair in Wing Commander II...
Thrakhath is just like any political leader in the world -- a figurehead. His policies and wars and so forth are the result of thousands and thousands of advisors, lawmakers, cabinet members, speechwriters, Meleks and so forth...
(That aside, though, it is interesting how the novels kind of treat Thrakhath as the reverse of Tolwyn -- when the books insist on raising up Tolwyn to being a three-dimensional character, they really turn Thrakhath into a stereotype. He's a fine strategist and a heroic warrior pilot in the games... and in the novels he becomes as far from both as possible.)