Continuity

[WildWeasel]

Oh, yeah, sorry. We should be focusing on all the truly *important* Chat Zone discussions instead. I think there was one about whether or not people think the helmsman in Wing Commander IV is hot.

I'm quite aware of the pointlessness of all of this.

(Which is to say that sitting there bitching about this or any other CZ thread being pointless is pretty idiotic, since with the possible exception of tech support threads they're all *entirely* pointless. If it's not a discussion you want to take part in, you don't have to.)

This thread initially appeared to be about why a single continuity is necessary. It's quickly degenerating into a debate over common complaints about the Wing Commander universe. While the two may be related, they aren't mutually inclusive. You can explain away every potential inconsistency, but that doesn't explain why you're so intent on doing so. I believe such reasons are what vodka7 is looking for.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The problem is that there is no 'basic premise' to a Sci Fi series like Wing Commander (or Star Trek or Star Wars or whatever)... which is why they have to be more careful with how they rank their 'canon'. With Spiderman it's easy, because there's a single base from which you can develop ten different continuities -- there's not for WC. Once you remove the games, the books, the show and the movies there's not an "origin point" for the Wing Commander universe. There's not a single idea that you point to and go "Oh, that's what Wing Commander is!".

 

[Bandit LOAF]

You can explain away every potential inconsistency, but that doesn't explain why you're so intent on doing so. I believe such reasons are what vodka7 is looking for.

But I did explain that... in my first post... it's the basic *nature* of a "hard" sci fi universe versus a comic book. Specifically for WC, however, it's how the series will evolve in the future - the next game will take continuity elements from the movie as well as from WC1-P.

 

[Col.Dom]

You must not have been around in 1994. Many long time fans bitched about WC3 for the exact same reason - it completely disregarded the previous games for the sake of appealing to a larger audience. The series suddenly became 'dark' and the story suddenly revolved soley around this 'Blair' character. Instead of influencing individual campaigns, suddenly you're Luke Skywalker (in more ways than one...). The game became less and less dynamic, and the dialogue became 'movie talk' (I think/I feel/I etc.) instead of the 'in universe' dialogue of the earlier games ('Cat carrier hit us at Vega VII again yesterday'). You didn't get medals! They didn't/couldn't say your killscore after each mission! Winning and losing became less and less dynamic! Etc. Wing Commander III was a completely different vision for the makeup of the Wing Commander 'universe'.

Whoa

Indeed, I wasn't around for 1994 (Wing Commander wise). My first actual foray into Wing Commander was with WC3 on the 3DO and my only previous experience with it was Nintendo Power's coverage on the SNES port of WC1. After your above quote, LOAF, a lot is thrown into perspective. I had never thought of WC3 in that light, because that was my initial WC. Wow.

Speaking of this sort of thing, you made a couple of Battlestar Galactica references in a previous thread (daggits and vipers) and it reminded me- WC4 has a very "traditional" sci-fi series look and feel to it. The music, aesthetic, everything. It seemed more akin to Star Trek/Battlestar Galactica than WC. Of course, that all could be attributed to its monster budget and "professional" production. Did anybody else feel that way about WC4?

 

[dextorboot]

I would say the games are that point. Spider-Man has contradicted itself too. Not as much as WC, but it's there. It also has the luxery of the medium not changing very much. Regardless, I agree with your point to an extent. WC doesn't have half the richness of the Spider-Man universe.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

There was quite a rift between WC1/2 and WC3 fans years ago - but it goes along with the massive increase in the size of the computer gaming public. In 1990 you sold Wing Commander to the hundred thousand guys buying D&D games... in 1994 you sold Wing Commander 3 to a million wide-eyed 'regular people'. The series evolved along with the industry, for better or for worse.

Good point re:WC4, though - I, personally have that 'complaint' about WCIV... WC1 and 2 are very much "serious" military sci fi... WC3 is Star Wars, and then WC4 is an attempt to make it even more of a "TV show". There's *no* huge backdrop, and it relies entirely on your rag-tag bunch of favorite characters...

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I would say the games are that point. Spider-Man has contradicted itself too. Not as much as WC, but it's there. It also has the luxery of the medium not changing very much. Regardless, I agree with your point to an extent. WC doesn't have half the richness of the Spider-Man universe.

But "the games" implies that everything springs from the games - and the initial claim is that WCM and the TV show (etc) are by nature *incompatible* with the games. If "the games" were WC's origin point, everything would retell and expand from them... WC is a timeline-based universe, not a comic book.

(I don't really know anything about Spider Man or how you'd measure "richness" in it... so I'm pretty sure that's *not* what I'm trying to say. )

 

[WildWeasel]

But I did explain that... in my first post... it's the basic *nature* of a "hard" sci fi universe versus a comic book. Specifically for WC, however, it's how the series will evolve in the future - the next game will take continuity elements from the movie as well as from WC1-P.

I guess that's just not the personal answer I was looking for.

 

[Col.Dom]

Good point re:WC4, though - I, personally have that 'complaint' about WCIV... WC1 and 2 are very much "serious" military sci fi... WC3 is Star Wars, and then WC4 is an attempt to make it even more of a "TV show". There's *no* huge backdrop, and it relies entirely on your rag-tag bunch of favorite characters...

Ah, good. So I'm not the only one

That's pretty much exactly how I feel about WC4. Also, I totally agree with what you listed as analogous to the separate WC games.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I guess that's just not the personal answer I was looking for.

I'm not entirely sure what you're going on about - I think I've already mentioned my *personal* feelings in this thread (the movie is entirely insignificant, but that doesn't affect its status as part of the WC movie).

 

[dextorboot]

In 1990 you sold Wing Commander to the hundred thousand guys buying D&D games... in 1994 you sold Wing Commander 3 to a million wide-eyed 'regular people'.

Out of pure curiousity LOAF, which one are you? Me? I was ten when WC1 came out and bought it because "it looked cool" on the shelf.

I'm pretty sure that's *not* what I'm trying to say.

I just meant that it had more, in terms of volume, source material than a few hours of gameplay and instruction manuals.

And in Spider-Man (the comics), there are multiple timelines/dimensions where things unfolded very differently for a kid named Peter Parker. There's even an infamous story where a lot of them converge.

the initial claim is that WCM and the TV show (etc) are by nature *incompatible* with the games

Not by nature, that's just what happened. To continue the Spider-Man analogy, the recent movie could have gone right along with what happened in the original comics, but it didn't.

WC is a timeline-based universe, not a comic book.

The comic book is timeline-based also. Not to mention that it has to fit the same timeline as all other marvel comics.



On a side note: Happy Halloween everyone. I'm off to go trick or treating. Laters.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Out of pure curiousity LOAF, which one are you? Me? I was ten when WC1 came out and bought it because "it looked cool" on the shelf.

I was ten -- but I was pretty darned geeky then (and now (G)). I played WC1 based on Jerry Pournelle's reccomendation in Byte.

The comic book is timeline-based also. Not to mention that it has to fit the same timeline as all other marvel comicsthe original comics, but it didn't.

That's not what I mean by timeline based... I mean that it's similar to something like Known Space or Star Trek where you have a large 'future' developed over time, in which you can set any story you want at any point. So you can stick the movie before WC1 or Privateer 2 a hundred years later without creating a separate continuity...

 

[Col.Dom]

There's even an infamous story where a lot of them converge.

Ugh, I think the last thing Wing Commander needs is some sort of "Crisis on Infinite Earths" (yes, I realize it's DC and the Spider-Man "convergence" is Marvel) gimmick

 

[Nemesis]

You can explain away every potential inconsistency, but that doesn't explain why you're so intent on doing so. I believe such reasons are what vodka7 is looking for.

LOAF gave a great reason. Another is that it’s simply fun to do. (Like any good game is fun to play.) But if you truly want a deadly serious reason, then I’ll give it to you in the form of some good advice.

If you don’t find mulling over the arguable inconsistencies in WC the least bit fun, then I can only hope you’re not in or otherwise thinking about making a career of physics, mathematics, engineering, computer programming, music, comparative literature, archaeology, psychology, neuroscience, law . . . I could go on for quite awhile. Because all of those fields, at their heart, have to do with ferreting out, composing, proposing, promoting, or in general “telling” a consistent and unified “story” about something.

 

[WildWeasel]

Yeah, I know how fun it can be. I'm just curious as to why a single continuity is so important to us as fans. This isn’t meant to be critical of anyone. It's just an idle curiosity.

 

[Viper61]

Cognitive dissidence could be an explaination for both the need to throw out and include seemingly erroneous information.
Wow, my boring, crappy freshman psychology class wasn't worthless after all. I guess it armed me with just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

C-ya

 

[Frosty]

Speaking for myself, I never imagined that a point of view could exist where everything doesn't fit together until I read a bunch of that sort of post here. I mean, it's supposed to, and it doesn't actually require any mental effort or explaining, just acceptance.

Actual, non-fiction human history is full of about as many "inconsistencies" and "contradictions" of about the same magnitude as WC's, but nobody wants to separate that the same way.

Tony Soprano owns a Suburban, but in one episode, he drives a blue Lincoln Continental. Am I supposed to treat that as somehow separate from the rest of the show? No, I just assume it's a rental. Guess what - that assumption wasn't exhausting to me, it didn't require too much effort, it was my default state of mind. I didn't try to make it fit, it just did.

People are willing to believe whatever they like, but not everyone can be correct all at once.

The reason for fitting everything together as one is because that's how it was intended, whether or not it fits everyone's perfectionist view of how it should.

 

[Bob McDob]

Why not keep them seperate, for example, the Gundam series, they all have the same title, similar characters, mechs, timelines, etc etc, but the keep them seperate, like Gundam Wing is an alternate reality, Gundam Sentinel is a side story of Z Gundam etc etc etc, it would be better to keep the story/timeline's seperate, instead of trying to incorporate WC Movie events into WC Game/Novel events just spoils it IMHO.

I'm glad you brought that up, because some of the later UC Gundams introduce even more inconsistancies - so in 08th MS Team there's more than one Gundam? Then what was the point of the whole "protect the Gundam" subplot in the original MSG? The Gundam in The Origin manga serialization has only one beam saber? And an upside-down shield!?!? In the Char's Counterattack novel Amuro is married!?!? And you can't argue that this is somehow side stories - the two show different versions of the same events. Not like every Gundam show where an entirely new plot is created every time. How do Gundam fans deal with this?

(Of course, even here people felt the need to reconcile timelines - witness Turn A Gundam's numerous references and in-jokes to the larger Gundam multiverse).

 

[Haesslich]

Absently, if one chooses to consider WCM a separate universe, one must also consider the novelizations of the games seperate universes of their own, especially the WC4 novel, which ended in Blair's promotion and his fling with Sosa (conspicuously absent in WCP).

Heck, even the games aren't always consistent - in WC2, Blair tries to shoot Jazz's ejection seat but gets stopped. In WC2:SO2, people yell at him for not executing Jazz when he had a chance, and he says he chose not to kill the guy.

Screw continuity.

 

[dextorboot]

Screw continuity.

That's probably the best we can do.

the last thing Wing Commander needs is some sort of "Crisis on Infinite Earths" gimmick.

NOT WHAT I WAS SUGGESTING. Hope that never happens. And you are correct sir.

So you can stick the movie before WC1 or Privateer 2 a hundred years later without creating a separate continuity...

Similar to the 2099 series for Marvel eh?

And you really shouldn't user Star Trek analogies since their timeline is WAY more screwy than WC. (I like Star Trek and don't really try to mesh all their stuff together since it's virtually impossible lately. But the fact that each show/movie fits together at least somewhat is fun, just like WC.)