Confederation Class?

[Dahan]

After reading the last few entries,
Loaf do you have list of the Concordia's history. Starting from when it was comission, its tour of duty up to the point of defeat on Vespus 3?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

After reading the last few entries,
Loaf do you have list of the Concordia's history. Starting from when it was comission, its tour of duty up to the point of defeat on Vespus 3?

I don't think Vespus ever gets a number.

There's nothing spectacularly hidden about the Concordia's

2661: Tolwyn makes her the flagship of the 14th Fleet (and takes command personally).

2661-2667: Second Enigma Campaign. From 2665 to 2667 are the events of Wing Commander II - the defense of Ghorah Khar, the attacks on Heaven's Gate and K'Tithrak Mang and so forth. In early 2667 she holds the strategic Pembroke nexus against enemy attack, puts down the Gettysburg mutiny and reinforces the besieged position at Ghorah Khar. Soon after, she serves as the focal point for a failed attempt to regroup the 6th Battle Fleet following losses at Deneb (and in the process tests the Morningstar). After that, the 14th Fleet masses at Niven with the Wolfhound, Trafalgar and Gettysburg battle groups - they launch Operation Backlash at Vukar Tag, destroying five Kilrathi carriers, four legions of marines and allowing the Tarawa to launch a similarly destructive assault on Kilrah's moon. Against orders, Tolwyn takes the Concordia behind enemy lines and saves Tarawa from destruction at Vuwarg.

2668: Third Enigma Campaign. The Concordia fights with distinction, including a counterstrike against KIS Gi'karga. Following this, she is made flagship of Task Force 45 as part of Operation Red 3. Concordia leads the succesful attack on the Munro System, destroying one of Kilrah's new Light Carriers just as the armistice is declared. This is followed by the Earth Defense Campaign, where she serves as flagship of the 3rd Fleet. In a series of massive fleet actions at Sirius and Sol, the Confederation repels the Kilrathi. Concordia herself is crippled, taking three torpedo hits in the fighting (one at Sirius, two at Earth). She loses her flag, as Tolwyn is assigned to the Weapons Development Office... and she is reassigned to 'safe sector' patrols for eight months.

2669: The Concordia is destroyed in a surprise Kilrathi attack on the important headquarters at Vespus.

 

[Iceyl86]

oi... not exactly a fitting end to such a ship...

 

[Sarty]

We don't know the specifics of the battle. That surprise attack could have consisted of 6 Kilrathi carriers with escorts for all we know. And as LOAF stated, Vespus was an important base, not some backwater supply post.

 

[Dragon1]

Vespus was an important HQ, but it was located in the Enigma sector, far away from where Confed was attempting to repel the Kilrathi from. A raid there was probably not considered likely.

Also, at this time, all Confed's fleet forces were scattered. They were attempting to save the situation from the disaster of the Battle of Earth. Other than the Concordia, I doubt if there were any other Confed capships of significance in Vespus.

 

[Quarto]

Vespus was an important HQ, but it was located in the Enigma sector, far away from where Confed was attempting to repel the Kilrathi from. A raid there was probably not considered likely.

Also, at this time, all Confed's fleet forces were scattered. They were attempting to save the situation from the disaster of the Battle of Earth. Other than the Concordia, I doubt if there were any other Confed capships of significance in Vespus.

That's completely ridiculous - at the very least, you should try to do some research before making up stuff like this.

1. Enigma Sector, far away? A raid probably not considered likely? Does Wing Commande 2 ring a bell? If it doesn't, maybe the fact that Vespus is three jumps from Sol might mean something to you. One of the systems along this path is Ella, with its huge superbase - which presumably was't built just to waste the taxpayers' money.

2. In the WC3 intro, Tolwyn talks about how "now that we have the Kilrathi on the run in Morpheus and Cardell systems [Cardell is one jump from Vespus] I can afford to shift you to the Victory in Orsini [...two jumps from Vespus]". The upshot of all this is that Vespus was clearly very near to the frontlines in the timespan immediately preceding WC3. This, combined with the high strategic value of the system (see number 1 above), leads me to believe that the fighting in Vespus was far more significant than you claim.

 

[Dragon1]

Quarto,

You are missing the point. It isn't that Vespus couldn't come under attack. What I am saying is that with assets from Gemini sector, through Vega and Epsilon (Deneb) sectors, there were plenty of other things for Confed to have to guard, or retake, with its few remaining carriers. Cardell, Morpheus, Orsini, may all have been close to Vespus, but they are not close to McAuliffe, Enyo, Venice, Hellespont, Speradon, Perry, amongst others.

The original question was why the engagement at Vespus didn't have more info attatched. Well, for one, in the context of WC3, the event was just a way to explain why Blair wouldn't be on the Concordia any more (there was no more Concordia). Secondly, there was so much going on in other areas, if Vespus was considered to be a primary target for Kilrathi forces, there would have been more there than a crippled dreadnought not fully repaired from previous battle.

. Enigma Sector, far away?

You took what I was saying out of context. Far away from what is the question? My intention was that the base was far from the stretched (not just Cardell/Morpheus) strategic line.

That's completely ridiculous - at the very least, you should try to do some research before making up stuff like this

Trust me, I do my homework before posting. There is nothing illogical about what I previously stated.

This, combined with the high strategic value of the system (see number 1 above), leads me to believe that the fighting in Vespus was far more significant than you claim.

So important that Tolwyn already has forces fighting in other systems before he makes the statement to Blair? I think the general meaning is that now Tolwyn can green-light the Time table for the Behemoth project. Also, Blair was in Vespus to check out the Concordia wreck, but (and this I might be wrong on) I think Tolwyn issued his orders to Blair at the Torgo HQ (but it also looks like Jupiter in the backround CGI shots from the game and I don't have the novelization handy).

 

[psych]

You forgot one small sentence from the WC3 Novel.

"Blackmane Base is shutting down, everything's being moved to Vespus or Torgo."

Implication that Vespus is an important Confed asset.

 

[Dragon1]

You are right. I did forget that sentence from the WC3 novel.

That aside, I am trying to justify why the action involving the destruction of the Concordia was not further elaborated on.

You are missing the point. It isn't that Vespus couldn't come under attack. What I am saying is that with assets from Gemini sector, through Vega and Epsilon (Deneb) sectors, there were plenty of other things for Confed to have to guard, or retake, with its few remaining carriers. Cardell, Morpheus, Orsini, may all have been close to Vespus, but they are not close to McAuliffe, Enyo, Venice, Hellespont, Speradon, Perry, amongst others.

I never said Vespus was not important. I said that there was so much that was important. Confed's resources at the time would most likely mean that a full fleet action in Vespus wasn't a possibility. Further, the Kilrathi force that attacked was most likely small. A lucky torpedo hit on the already damaged Concordia.

The Vespus base = Important installation (established by the fact that it is called an HQ)

The action surrounding the destruction of the Concordia was most likely not that grand in the scale of things.

 

[psych]

A confirmed dialogue session between WC3 scriptwriters Terry Borst and his fucking-over-WC-cause-he-didn't-bother-to-write-about-the-TCS-Concordia-destruction partner in crime Frank DePalma. Even though the dialogue has been confirmed, it's unconfirmed whether they were high at the time.
.
Borst: Hey Frank dude, want to know the main reason didn't I bother to include the destruction of the Concordia?

DePalma: I don't know, Terry man? Because maybe cause WC3 is supposed to be about a whole new carrier?

Borst: Good answer, but no.

DePalma: Because of the movie effect of seeing the TCS Concordia, the main Confed flagship and pride of the Navy and all, all broken up and fucked up and split in half in some faroff ocean, gives that cinematic shock and first impression that the war is not going well for the humans?

Borst: Definately a legitimate answer, but no.

DePalma: Because Origin didn't have much of a movie budget to begin with, and considering how Wing Commander 3 was going to be one of the first games to integrate movie sequences to gameplay, the main Origin bigwigs didn't want to risk shelling out loads and loads of money to make the expensive CGI battle cutscenes?

Borst: Terry, you are a fool. We all know that when it comes to making games, financial funding money limitations is just a small annoyance to be swatted away, like an insignificant fly.

DePalma: Okay, that was three tries. I give up. Please tell me.

Borst: Because I want to deliberately piss off those WC activists who will, in the near future, protest on the internet why I didn't write the minute-by-minute acccont of the TCS Concordia's destruction in the game!!!!

DePalma: Dude, when will that be?

Borst: 12 years bro, I AM psychic of course!

DePalma: Far out, man! Let's do it!!!!!!!!

 

[Sylvester]

Psych, people are just wondering what happened to the Concordia before she was seen destroyed in WC3. Many here, including myself when I was new, don't know how much effort it actually takes to make a computer game. Of course Origin had technical and financial difficulties in making WC3. The Concordia couldn't be included in a major role for this reason. However, berating someone like that is not called for. Its not like he said something overly stupid. He just wanted to know what was going on.

 

[Quarto]

You are missing the point. It isn't that Vespus couldn't come under attack. What I am saying is that with assets from Gemini sector, through Vega and Epsilon (Deneb) sectors, there were plenty of other things for Confed to have to guard, or retake, with its few remaining carriers. Cardell, Morpheus, Orsini, may all have been close to Vespus, but they are not close to McAuliffe, Enyo, Venice, Hellespont, Speradon, Perry, amongst others.

Well, no - see, the point is that you're missing the point . Consider, for example, that you've just mentioned assets in Vega and Epsilon. Now consider that without Vespus, there can be no talk about Epsilon, and the Vega sector, instead of being under attack from two sides, ends up under attack from three sides.

(...not that it matters who's attacking Vega and from where, because the most significant value of the Vega sector is that it's on the route between Kilrah and Earth - if the Kilrathi can find another way to reach Earth... like through Vespus... then the Vega sector loses all significance, because it's Earth the cats are after)

In any case, what this means is that there is plenty of reasons for there to be more Confed forces in Vespus. And I'm willing to bet that the Concordia, being one of those "few remaining carriers" you mentioned had quite an escort. Even a damaged carrier is an important asset when you can count all your carriers with your fingers.

You also mentioned Speradon as an important place far from Vespus... which happens to be one jump from Vespus and Orsini. Regardless of your assurances to the contrary, I think you may need to do some research after all .

The original question was why the engagement at Vespus didn't have more info attatched. Well, for one, in the context of WC3, the event was just a way to explain why Blair wouldn't be on the Concordia any more (there was no more Concordia). Secondly, there was so much going on in other areas, if Vespus was considered to be a primary target for Kilrathi forces, there would have been more there than a crippled dreadnought not fully repaired from previous battle.

The engagement in Vespus didn't have more info attached, because like you just said, it was only there to explain why we're not on the Concordia. But, we do know one extremely important detail about the battle in which the Concordia was lost: it was a rearguard action. Rearguards, by definition, guard someone's rear - so what happened was that a larger Confed force was retreating, and the Concordia was diverted to block the way. So, not only can we suppose that the Concordia had escorts, but we further know that this action took place specifically because some sort of Confed force was retreating through this system.

So, again - there is every reason to believe that there was a lot of forces in and around Vespus.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

"Rearguard" isn't implicitly guarding the rear of a retreating force - it's simply the antonym of "vanguard". The rearguard fights the retreat in history because of how a 19th century massed, self-sustaining army is laid out... but the word just means it's the part of the force that protects the rear. In the case of the Concordia, 'rearguard' seems a perfectly apt description of her last assignment (from Voices of War): "The Concordia was growing rather rickety after years of abuse, and she'd been placed on indefinite patrol status, Code 4. What this translated into was running routine 'safe' sector patrols."

My read would be that the Concordia is on its 'patrol status, Code 4' covering Vespus, a major fleet headquarters... when the Kilrathi launch a massive offensive which reaches that far to the rear.

The Confederation fights them off there and loses Concordia in the process... and then by the time Wing Commander III starts, they're just taking back Gardell and Morpheus. There was certainly an action at Vespus - Kevin mentions it in the WC3 novel: "I made Flight Captain after the Battle of Terra, the brevet came through after I got wounded during the mop-up after Vespus."

I really don't think we can say either way what happened, though - was there a Confederation fleet retreating, a la WC2? Did the Confederation lines fall apart entirely and allow the Kilrathi to press as far as Vespus? Did the Kilrathi sneak past the front lines to hit the base somehow? We don't know, we don't know, we don't know.

Of course Origin had technical and financial difficulties in making WC3. The Concordia couldn't be included in a major role for this reason.

I'm not quite sure what that means - Wing Commander III was, at the time, the best-funded computer game in history...

the Concordia isn't in the game because of some technical limitation or some lack of money (hey, we can only afford a 3D model of a *light* carrier for this game!) -- it was in the game because the plot was about the Confederation losing the war, and a good way to show that was to blow up the powerful, emotionally-relevant ship from the previous game.

 

[Dragon1]

Because I want to deliberately piss off those WC activists who will, in the near future, protest on the internet why I didn't write the minute-by-minute acccont of the TCS Concordia's destruction in the game!!!!

Activist?

 

[Bob McDob]

Psych, people are just wondering what happened to the Concordia before she was seen destroyed in WC3. Many here, including myself when I was new, don't know how much effort it actually takes to make a computer game. Of course Origin had technical and financial difficulties in making WC3. The Concordia couldn't be included in a major role for this reason. However, berating someone like that is not called for. Its not like he said something overly stupid. He just wanted to know what was going on.

I think you've been around more than long enough to know psych's just like that You have to take what he says in the slightly hyperbolic cavalier spirit it's put out in, and not dwell on it as the terrible retribution of God.