Carrier fight

Guardian said:
Any carrier or should i say its fighters are capable of taking out any ship in the Wing Commander universe with the exception of perhaps the H'varkann. And even thought they never go into detail in WC3 you can make a safe bet that the ships that killed Concordia over Vespus were carrier launched fighters. So fighters launched from the Claw (assuming it was upgraded the way Wolfhound was upgraded to be flagship of the fleet see end run) could kill her. It really does come down the the skill of the Commander the flight wings and as all of military history shows a bit of luck.
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The only things we know about the concordia's demise is that she was downed by kilrathi raiders of some type. I would doubt that this means carrier based fighters, I would be more willing to lean towards cruiser or even destroyer based craft and possibly even help from smaller capships. However, all except the raiding party is pure speculation.
 
This isnt a question of who has the better Pilots though, its not like ship to ship fights havent happened, heck one happens in the movie! What we're trying to clear up is which ship would win in a good old fasioned shoot out, the Cordie or the TC... though I dont know why ne 1 would bother analysing this, its quite obvious if you ask me, and if you dont be a cheap ass and change all the stats around.
 
F4U Corsair said:
This isnt a question of who has the better Pilots though, its not like ship to ship fights havent happened, heck one happens in the movie! What we're trying to clear up is which ship would win in a good old fasioned shoot out, the Cordie or the TC... though I dont know why ne 1 would bother analysing this, its quite obvious if you ask me, and if you dont be a cheap ass and change all the stats around.
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In a ship to ship fight, BOTH of them would launch craft to either keep enemy fighters off them, or to allow bombers in to start trying to nail the target. Given the guns on both, and the fact that there were torpedo tubes on the Claw in WCM, I'd probably say that both ships would probably damage one another seriously, if not fatally - and they'd BOTH die, thus wasting several thousand crewers and several billion of the TCN's hard-fought-for funds. And several years of work to boot.

Nobody would win in that situation, save the Kilrathi or any other enemies of the Confederation. Carriers aren't meant to slug it out, period - and even the Concordia, which was fairly heavily armored, was easy enough prey to several torpedoes - two of them will knock out half the systems on the ship, at least to judge by the way the Concordia was damaged in the Fleet Action novel. The Claw would probably go up with several torpedo hits herself, but I wouldn't expect the Concordia to survive much longer if the Claw had time to launch any bombers. And THOSE are the primary weapons systems of any carrier.
 
In a ship v. ship carrier battle, the only winners would be the spectators and news crews...
 
Also the Concordia is equipped w/ Anti matter guns, and when I read about them in Joans Guide, it said, that they were basically very much like Torpedoes, designed to Pierce Shielding and pound the Armor, which is why I feel that this ship was made for both long and close range combat with other ships... I always thought that Dreadnoughts were designed to be Battleships that have a flight deck and a full compliment of fighters.
 
The last Star said:
Dude the Concordia is weak, I could probably take her out in the Original Enterprise if I wanted to!
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*jaw drops* ... as someone in here once so perfectly put it... * Claw comes through the computer screen and stabs you.* EXECUTION THRAKATH STYLE!
 
F4U Corsair said:
Also the Concordia is equipped w/ Anti matter guns, and when I read about them in Joans Guide, it said, that they were basically very much like Torpedoes, designed to Pierce Shielding and pound the Armor, which is why I feel that this ship was made for both long and close range combat with other ships... I always thought that Dreadnoughts were designed to be Battleships that have a flight deck and a full compliment of fighters.
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Actually, according to Action Stations, ANY big enough gun'll punch a hole in phase shields, which is why battleships were so popular till torpedoes hit the scene - you had a big enough gun, you could do damage to the enemy ship... or at least drain her shields enough that you could start putting holes in the hull. The Concordia has 8 of them, and we know that the Claw also had something like 40 torpedo tubes (which apparently fell under the 'classified' section of the weapons list). The Claw's not meant to get in close and mix it up with other ships, but it can do planetary bombardment AND also had this small arsenal. If we're letting these ships duke it out, even discounting the fighters we're probably going to lose BOTH ships in the process.

As noted before, two torpedoes crippled the Concordia during the Battle of Earth, and we began WC2 with it running from a single Fraltha-class cruiser after its escort had been destroyed. It can take down other capships, but they're not meant to act primarily as battleships. And, given the above weapons listings, we'd probably have both ships annihilate each other, which means nobody wins. :D
 
Haesslich said:
Actually, according to Action Stations, ANY big enough gun'll punch a hole in phase shields, which is why battleships were so popular till torpedoes hit the scene - you had a big enough gun, you could do damage to the enemy ship... or at least drain her shields enough that you could start putting holes in the hull.
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I actually haven't read anything in this thread except for this part of your post. Hurray.

The difference with AMGs is that they go through shields. The large capital ship plasma weapons and things are designed to smash the shields of other ships down, and then destroy the ship, rather than just ignoring the shields like anti-matter guns.
 
TC said:
I actually haven't read anything in this thread except for this part of your post. Hurray.

The difference with AMGs is that they go through shields. The large capital ship plasma weapons and things are designed to smash the shields of other ships down, and then destroy the ship, rather than just ignoring the shields like anti-matter guns.
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Ah, the differences between the VS and KS manuals versus the WC2 manual - one says 'punch through', the other says 'ignore'. Either way, big guns CAN push holes into shields, though some (the PTC most notably) just skip them to hit the target directly.
 
Ok, the TC has 40 Torpedo turrets, fine that in the movie, not the game. Then how many do you think the Concordia had? Probably significantly more, I find it hard to believe a ship of that size only had 12 Turrets.
 
According to the Wing Commander I & II Ultimate Strategy Guide, the Confederation-class Concordia *does* have torpedo tubes.
 
F4U Corsair said:
Ok, the TC has 40 Torpedo turrets, fine that in the movie, not the game. Then how many do you think the Concordia had? Probably significantly more, I find it hard to believe a ship of that size only had 12 Turrets.
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In which case, both ships are dead again - so there's no real point in putting them up against each other, unless you like pretty explosions which consume billions upon billions of credits in taxpayer's credits and a cumulative 10 years worth of work in a shipyard. Armor doesn't do that much against torps, as we've seen - and while it takes only two to take out the Claw, versus three or so on the Concordia... well, since the Claw had 40 torp tubes, plus any that would've been on any bombers she sent out on an all-out strike on the Concordia, the same way Concordia would do to her...

Translation - it's not going to be an automatic win for the Concordia, as you suggested. It's more likely to be 'mutual annihilation', which benefits nobody but the Kilrathi.
 
Armor doesn't do that much against torps
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Armor is the *only* thing that absorbs damage from a torpedo - they skip through *shields*.

well, since the Claw had 40 torp tubes
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Eh, it sounds like an impressive number, but it really isn't in combat - since at least 32 (and as many as 36) of those "torpedo tubes" are the 'side' mounted ones from the movie. The Tiger's Claw only has four forward torpedo bays.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Haesslich said:
Armor doesn't do that much against torps
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Armor is the *only* thing that absorbs damage from a torpedo - they skip through *shields*.
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That is true, if only to give the Concordia the ability to take one more torp, IIRC, before it goes to hell. Two torps in Fleet Action had the ship seriously damaged, though we know it took... I believe the Strakha launched two or three torps at the Claw to destroy it, ja? Armor does make a difference, but it's still going to be of limited use given a) it's heavy, and b) its intent is to keep you from being killed by the first hit, rather than to provide long-term protection against torp damage. It'll stop guns, missiles, and so on pretty well for quite some time, however - as the Claw illustrated in WC1.


Bandit LOAF said:
Eh, it sounds like an impressive number, but it really isn't in combat - since at least 32 (and as many as 36) of those "torpedo tubes" are the 'side' mounted ones from the movie. The Tiger's Claw only has four forward torpedo bays.
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Given 4-8 torpedoes, the chances of an instant-kill are pretty good. Then again, should the Concordia hit the Claw with so much as two or three torpedoes or its PTC, the Claw's also toasted. Personally, I'd never stick a carrier and a dreadnought into a situation like this, not unless I felt a compulsion to waste a lot of money and lives doing something stupid.
 
That is true, if only to give the Concordia the ability to take one more torp, IIRC, before it goes to hell. Two torps in Fleet Action had the ship seriously damaged, though we know it took... I believe the Strakha launched two or three torps at the Claw to destroy it, ja? Armor does make a difference, but it's still going to be of limited use given a) it's heavy, and b) its intent is to keep you from being killed by the first hit, rather than to provide long-term protection against torp damage. It'll stop guns, missiles, and so on pretty well for quite some time, however - as the Claw illustrated in WC1.
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The Tiger's Claw is destroyed by six torpedoes (three Strakha fire two each). I don't think there's ever a situation where the Concordia is destroyed by torpedoes alone - it's always attacked by capital ships with antimatter guns.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
The Tiger's Claw is destroyed by six torpedoes (three Strakha fire two each). I don't think there's ever a situation where the Concordia is destroyed by torpedoes alone - it's always attacked by capital ships with antimatter guns.
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*bangs head on desk* I always just remembered three Strakha and three torps, rather than the 'two torps per fighter'. I think the closest we saw to Concordia being nearly destroyed by torps was during Fleet Action, though my memory could be off on that as well. I'd still avoid sending those two ships up against one another, as a matter of course, unless I was looking to waste a bunch of money, though.
 
I don't think anyone is suggesting that there would ever be a historical opportunity for the Concordia to fight the Tiger's Claw... it's a purely theoretical debate, like pilots arguing about a fight between a P-51 and a P-47.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
I don't think anyone is suggesting that there would ever be a historical opportunity for the Concordia to fight the Tiger's Claw... it's a purely theoretical debate, like pilots arguing about a fight between a P-51 and a P-47.
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True, though this is just to the left of pitting the Sivar against the Behemoth in a planet-busting contest.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
The Sivar dreadnought doesn't actually destroy planets - it (literally) crushes settlements.
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I remember - the '137 times increase in the gravitic field' figure was bandied abound, IIRc, at one point or another. And the Claw's not meant to attack capships by itself as well, and has a different purpose from the Confederation-class dreadnought. Yes, she's well armed, but she's not meant to go and fight them knife-to-knife the way a dreadnought can.
 
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