Canon? Official? Apocrypha?
- Thread starter Iceberg
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Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Re: Maniac as a Colonel. Presumably he was made Lt. Colonel and then demoted -- Chris McCubbin (author of most the official WC guides) posted a note to this effect at agwc some years back (after he did the character bios for the WCP Guide).
Wilford was a Captain in Confed -- he was made Admiral by the Border Worlds... when he returned to the Confederation under the exchange program, he reverted to Captain (this is explained in the WCP official guide).
My reading of the Enyo/McAuliffe ambush thing was that the Kilrathi took *both* systems -- which sort of makes sense.
Wilford was a Captain in Confed -- he was made Admiral by the Border Worlds... when he returned to the Confederation under the exchange program, he reverted to Captain (this is explained in the WCP official guide).
My reading of the Enyo/McAuliffe ambush thing was that the Kilrathi took *both* systems -- which sort of makes sense.
Maybe you didn't notice, but that fight is optional, as in you decide if you want to do it. So if the novel would tell us that they didn't fight (which it doesn't) than we would know that the official story is that they didn't fight.
What Q and Dragon said...
Wow, lots of details, meaningless ones at that. Excuse me, but I highly doubt that the position from which Blair watches Seether come aboard the Lex, or they way he gets to the Intrepid, are enough to disregard the novel...
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
A new example: What if the a manual states something wrong about a ship (it happens quite often), e.g. in WC3 the manual says that the Hellcat mounts the same guns as the Arrow (2 Laser, 2 Ion) but in the game she mounts 2 Neutron and 2 Ion. So what is offical canon? For me, the only sensible thing to do is to use the in-game stats. But for example the CIC database uses only manual statistics ( I emailed them but never got any reply nor were changes made 
) and I think that is not that clever.
The same applies to the Armada ships, boy any fighter description was faulty.
) and I think that is not that clever.The same applies to the Armada ships, boy any fighter description was faulty.
The better question is how we should generally approach any conflict. Simply put, we should try to reconcile it. (LOAF provides a great example in his last post.) I mean, why resign ourselves to a conflict just because it appears or is claimed to be one?
As for the Hellcat in WC3, yes it certainly appears to be using two neutron guns in the game while in the game manual its load-out is supposed to be two laser cannons instead. Conflict?
Well, one way we could reconcile this is to recall that the neutron gun is officially retired in 2668, which may look good on paper but still leaves a logistical problem for technicians like Rachel who presumably have a new protocol to enforce, namely the actual replacement of the neutron guns on any number of Hellcats and the like. What we therefore “see” in the game is an example of this problem, and what we “see” in the manual is the newly approved load-out (or one of them anyway) for the Hellcat. (In WC4, the load-out in the manual calls for two particle guns.)
If anyone has another or better solution to propose, go for it!
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
Well, this is a good explanation and it keeps a Wing Commander feeling (Maniac must have really been pissed off by it
)I am afraid I do not unnderstand what you mean. Do you mean that the Kilrathi took both Enyo and McAuliffe in 2639?
Then why is only the talk of how one of these system was liberated? And not to forget that the text, describing the Enyo/McAuliffe engagement is virtually the same in every timeline, only the names are exchanged.
Yet at the beginning both systems are under Confed control and I think in the very first mission briefing, in the Enyo system, Halycon says that this System was once held by the Kilrathi and now it is your duty to destroy the remnants.
Could you please clear up for me what you meant?
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Oh, what I meant by the Enyo/McAuliffe bit was that the Kilrathi might have attacked both, and then we used Tolwyn's Raptor strategy to liberate both at the same time.
(WC1 was 16 years later, mind you, and there'd been more fights for Enyo between that time -- the basic story of the early WC1 missions is that we don't expect to find Kilrathi there, end up locating a carrier group and then we hunt it down through several systems).
My guess would be that the Hellcat listed in Joan's is the F-86B, whereas the version onboard the Victory is the F-86C, or somesuch.
(WC1 was 16 years later, mind you, and there'd been more fights for Enyo between that time -- the basic story of the early WC1 missions is that we don't expect to find Kilrathi there, end up locating a carrier group and then we hunt it down through several systems).
My guess would be that the Hellcat listed in Joan's is the F-86B, whereas the version onboard the Victory is the F-86C, or somesuch.
Well if they're the same systems, why have two different mission groupings? After all in SM2, you have many series with the same system names. I'd say that Enyo and McAuliffe are different systems on the basis that the games have different series in them.
Has anyone read Secrets of the WC Universe by Mark Minasi? Any thoughts on it?
Has anyone read Secrets of the WC Universe by Mark Minasi? Any thoughts on it?
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
Thanks Bandit. (BTW how should I address to you? Loaf? Bandit? Baron?). Although I find it a bit strange that the battles for two systems are exactly the same (Kilrathi taking 250,000 hostages, the Tolwyn strategy, the dumb cats fall into the same trap etc..)
And redwolf, Enyo and McAuliffe are different systems, that is for sure. The point was if the Kilrathi attacked McAuliffe or Enyo on 2639 or both.
Well, I will stick to the WC1 manual, it is my most favoured
anyway and it makes more sense to me if the Kilrathi attacked McAuliffe and Enyo seperately.
And redwolf, Enyo and McAuliffe are different systems, that is for sure. The point was if the Kilrathi attacked McAuliffe or Enyo on 2639 or both.
Well, I will stick to the WC1 manual, it is my most favoured
anyway and it makes more sense to me if the Kilrathi attacked McAuliffe and Enyo seperately.
mpanty
Keen Commander
I'd like to add some details on the "Canon? Official? Apocrypha?" thread...
I'm pretty close to the end of the novel the Price of Freedom (wow, 300 pages in a bit more than a week-end! you really gotta be a fan), and I HAVE BEEN ASTONISHED by the... YES!! DIFFERENCES!!!
Previously, when I first pointed this out in the thread, Bandit promptly gave me a justification for most the differences I noted, skilfully clearing most of them. Yet some remained...
But NOW that I'm near to the end of the book, HELL, there is really some stuff that's not going along with the game!
(N.B. I don't want to spoil the story for those who haven't read the book yet, so for you guys don't read what follows...)
1) Blair's defection
Ok, he defects later, an option that is given in the game, but in what way??? He actually fights Seether!! And most importantly, WHAT THE HELL HAPPENS TO CATSCRATCH AND VAGABOND??? They just disappear!! Vagabond is supposed to join Eisen the first time a defection option is proposed, and then have had to gun him down...
Catscratch is supposed to follow you whatever you chose!
2) Blair's encounter with the Cats
WOW! The old enemies meet again, Blair has to help out Melek under attack. In the game the two meet aboard the Intrepid...
In the novel, the ACTUALLY meet on Melek's ship, because Blair has to land due to the heavy damage to his ship. Melek gives him the grand tour of the ship, the temple, and he offers him some kind of "gift"... BLAIR ACTUALLY SLEEPS WITH A FEMALE KILRATHI!!!
How crazy is that?
3) Blair's love life
Ok, so Catscratch's gone, he can't flirt with Lt. Sosa...
and the author thought it would be on the Wing Commander universe's line for Blair and Sosa to have some kind of flirt, considering what had happened to Blair with Rachel, but PLEASE Bandit don't tell me now that this TOO can co-exist with the game story...
4) The Speradon missions
Obviously, due to novel size limitations, the three missions you are offered to do in the game (2/3) are actually carried out AT THE SAME TIME in the novel, according to Panther's plan, as an element of surprise...
Though, at the end of the plan, you get to land on the TCS Princeton! And that's where you admire closely the "Black Lances" for the first time... Oh yeah, the author thought wise to change the names of the "Dragons"...
5) The Teladon bioweapon "bombing"
In the game, Blair and Dekker actually get to see with their own eyes the effects of the "nanobots" canisters, they land on Telamon! According to the game therefore, one option is that Blair, Dekker and the marines present all match the nanobot DNA search (meaning the nanobots are still present and active on the planet's surface), but in that case Blair and the others would be "infected" as "carriers" once they were to take off, thereby possibly also infecting the Intrepid's crew (unless these nanobots can't be transmitted, which contradicts what the doctor on Telamon says in the novel).
The other option is that the nanobots are not active anymore at Blair's arrival, which I think is the explanation chosen in the game, meaning that nanobots act only once -the first time they are released.
In all cases, Blair never gets to set foot on Telamon in the novel, the doctor contacts him and Wilford via the Comm system...
6) The infiltration on Axius base
In the book, there are many details that are not included in the game for simplicity, and actually here the story version of the novel is better, because it takes into account factors not specifically outlined in the game (with the exception of the clearance codes), such as IFF recognition codes, traces of Border World systems etc...
Also, Blair comes aboard the base already with a Black Lance uniform, which definitely makes more sense than coming aboard in his BW clothes like in the game, no one greeting him after his landing, so that he has to steal an uniform in the base facility!!
That's all I have read so far, but I'm quite convinced that there are more details to come, along with differences...
The point of all of this? Establish once and for all which sources to be trusted when a contradiction occurs...
With all this evidence, we cannot say anymore that the novels just "expand" the WC universe, they go well beyond that!! On the same plot, the create a whole new storyline...
[Edited by mpanty on 02-27-2001 at 12:25]
I'm pretty close to the end of the novel the Price of Freedom (wow, 300 pages in a bit more than a week-end! you really gotta be a fan
), and I HAVE BEEN ASTONISHED by the... YES!! DIFFERENCES!!!Previously, when I first pointed this out in the thread, Bandit promptly gave me a justification for most the differences I noted, skilfully clearing most of them. Yet some remained...
But NOW that I'm near to the end of the book, HELL, there is really some stuff that's not going along with the game!
(N.B. I don't want to spoil the story for those who haven't read the book yet, so for you guys don't read what follows...)
1) Blair's defection
Ok, he defects later, an option that is given in the game, but in what way??? He actually fights Seether!! And most importantly, WHAT THE HELL HAPPENS TO CATSCRATCH AND VAGABOND??? They just disappear!! Vagabond is supposed to join Eisen the first time a defection option is proposed, and then have had to gun him down...
Catscratch is supposed to follow you whatever you chose!
2) Blair's encounter with the Cats
WOW! The old enemies meet again, Blair has to help out Melek under attack. In the game the two meet aboard the Intrepid...
In the novel, the ACTUALLY meet on Melek's ship, because Blair has to land due to the heavy damage to his ship. Melek gives him the grand tour of the ship, the temple, and he offers him some kind of "gift"... BLAIR ACTUALLY SLEEPS WITH A FEMALE KILRATHI!!!
How crazy is that?
3) Blair's love life
Ok, so Catscratch's gone, he can't flirt with Lt. Sosa...
and the author thought it would be on the Wing Commander universe's line for Blair and Sosa to have some kind of flirt, considering what had happened to Blair with Rachel, but PLEASE Bandit don't tell me now that this TOO can co-exist with the game story...
4) The Speradon missions
Obviously, due to novel size limitations, the three missions you are offered to do in the game (2/3) are actually carried out AT THE SAME TIME in the novel, according to Panther's plan, as an element of surprise...
Though, at the end of the plan, you get to land on the TCS Princeton! And that's where you admire closely the "Black Lances" for the first time... Oh yeah, the author thought wise to change the names of the "Dragons"...
5) The Teladon bioweapon "bombing"
In the game, Blair and Dekker actually get to see with their own eyes the effects of the "nanobots" canisters, they land on Telamon! According to the game therefore, one option is that Blair, Dekker and the marines present all match the nanobot DNA search (meaning the nanobots are still present and active on the planet's surface), but in that case Blair and the others would be "infected" as "carriers" once they were to take off, thereby possibly also infecting the Intrepid's crew (unless these nanobots can't be transmitted, which contradicts what the doctor on Telamon says in the novel).
The other option is that the nanobots are not active anymore at Blair's arrival, which I think is the explanation chosen in the game, meaning that nanobots act only once -the first time they are released.
In all cases, Blair never gets to set foot on Telamon in the novel, the doctor contacts him and Wilford via the Comm system...
6) The infiltration on Axius base
In the book, there are many details that are not included in the game for simplicity, and actually here the story version of the novel is better, because it takes into account factors not specifically outlined in the game (with the exception of the clearance codes), such as IFF recognition codes, traces of Border World systems etc...
Also, Blair comes aboard the base already with a Black Lance uniform, which definitely makes more sense than coming aboard in his BW clothes like in the game, no one greeting him after his landing, so that he has to steal an uniform in the base facility!!
That's all I have read so far, but I'm quite convinced that there are more details to come, along with differences...
The point of all of this? Establish once and for all which sources to be trusted when a contradiction occurs...
With all this evidence, we cannot say anymore that the novels just "expand" the WC universe, they go well beyond that!! On the same plot, the create a whole new storyline...
[Edited by mpanty on 02-27-2001 at 12:25]
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
I think your statement could lead to some misunderstandings.
Blair did not have sex with a Kilrathi female. I think they just slept in the same bed or whatever in. Or did I get sth wrong? If Blair DID have sex with the Kilrathi then wow! he is more courageous than I thought
.And I think whether Blair meets Melek on his ship or onboard the Intrepid is not so important as it is no crucial for the (game) plot. In the book it is important so that Blair can see how the Kilrathi mystified him.
That the novels are much more detailed than the games is correct and good because they left often sth out in the games. ( I only learned about Hobbes' motives to defect in the novel).
Your other points (especially the Catscratch and Vagabond thing) are quite interesting but unfortunately I cannot answer them as it has been a long time since I played WC4 or read the novel.
Perhaps Vagabond and Catscratch are onboard the Intrepid and the author just does not metion them.... I know this is weak but I cannot think of another reason at the moment .
But I am sure there are plenty of people who will help you and me and anyone else who wants to know what is to be trusted
.
mpanty
Keen Commander
Originally posted by Mekt-Hakkikt
I think your statement could lead to some misunderstandings.
Blair did not have sex with a Kilrathi female. I think they just slept in the same bed or whatever in. Or did I get sth. wrong? If Blair DID have sex with the Kilrathi then wow! he is more courageous than I thought
No, she just SLEEPS with her... they don't have sex (as pointed out in the novel...)
The author even states that "Melek offered Blair a 'concubine', and that Blair could not refuse for 'politeness' towards her, but he didn't really want to have sex either (well, who could blame him? LOL), so they just 'slept' together...
But at any rate, it's still "CRAZY AS HELL"!!!
