Black Lance

[Skyfire]

Originally posted by Penguin
So what you're saying is its better to stay in wartime to avoid some unemployment? And how does staying on a permanent wartime footing make it easier for the civilians to regain control from the military?

The second argument is flawed. If someone loses a war, its usually not because of some genetic predisposition, but more a question of tactics, weapons and organization. If we say the Kilrathi really are superior, then why did it take them nearly 40 years to break us? All those martial prowess and they still needed to trick us with the False Truce to win. Oh yeah - having Hobbes as they're mole sure didn't hurt their war effort. The Kilrathi certainly did have a few lucky breaks in that last year didn't they?

Cheap win? What the hell is so cheap about blowing up their homeworld? Hell it got them to surrender when they probably still had the resources to carry on the fight so who is superior now?

First off-no, I'm not saying that-don't get so defensive when there is only clarification. I'm saying that was Tolwyn's arguement, and it did have some merit-although not realistically feasable. And no-it DOESN'T make it any easier to take control back, very good. That's exactly was WC4 was about.

Actually, they didn't need to trick us with the False Truce. That was simply to continue to hide their super carriers. While the strikes the Confederation was playing out was doing fair damage-that was only to the supply of the front lines, since so much was being diverted to the super carriers. Assuming it wasn't, those raids wouldn't have done shit.

Based on your last statement, I'd still say the Kilrathi were more superior at that time. They still had a much more outstanding military than us, and could have still easily crushed the Confederation in a massive push. Taking out the Emperor gave mankind the only path to victory they had available to them-that's why it was formed. As for being cheap-think of it this way, if the Kilrathi had destroyed Earth in the BoT, and we gave up, don't you think that we would have called it a "cheap win." (That's assuming they used a "super weapon" or bioweapon, like we did.)

Originally posted by Stunner
Skyfire: The fact that we took out the royal family, gave us a "cheap win." That's why many people, like Tolwyn, see humanity as the "more flawed species."

Well if we would have used the behemoth would you have been happier then? Instead of destroying part of the planet it would have been reduced to small chucks and dust. And possible alot more planets then the test and Kilrah.

Once again, I'm going to have to ask everyone to STOP trying to decide that I'm pro-Tolwyn, when I'm simply clarifying. But, to answer that, I still would have (going the Tolwyn route) seen it as a cheap win. Even Tolwyn did, that's why he rushed it, and called it a last resort. It's not actually an "honorable" fight, like he had wanted it to be, where man would have won-he was opting for the only, and incidentaly more devious, method by which to win.

~So after all this, I still agree with Wildshots expression of Tolwyn's beliefs-as both of us are not stating that they are our own. (So you can stop the moral high ground act.) They're both accurate, and fairly reasonable-from Tolwyn's perspective.

 

[Raptor]

Whatever gave you the idea that a total war on which humanity's survival depended on has to be fought honourably? Confed won the war because it was prepared to be ruthless as hell and kick the Kilrathi right where it hurt the most. And in terms of species survival, being able to be ruthless when you have to would be an advantage, not a weakness.

As for the super-carriers, if the transports weren't being diverted to help build them, then the super carrier carriers wouldn't be able to be completed, because there would be nothing to haul the tons of parts and materials needed. If the transports were diverted to the super carriers, then the current war effort grinds to a halt because the humans are smashing the remaining transports left right and centre. Either way, the Kilrathi would be in a jam.

Best, Raptor

 

[Wedge009]

Originally posted by Wildshot
...the short depression immediately following World War II...

My knowledge of history is shocking, but I thought WWII brought the world economy out of the Great Depression. There's nothing to kick up the economy like a war.

Uh oh, not another massive "Was Tolwyn right?" discussion. :/

 

[Manic]

I'm afraid it seems so, Wedge...
The Dragon was, indeed, developed during peacetime... but the intention of it's design was use as a catalyst, bringing about(or so the BL had hoped) a war between the Border Worlds, and Confed. Just because the fighting hadn't started yet, doesn't mean that the intent to kill wasn't there.

 

[Raptor]

Being designed with the intent to kill would be true of just about any weapons system, not just the Dragon. That's their purpose, after all.

Best, Raptor

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Originally posted by Manic
I'm afraid it seems so, Wedge...
The Dragon was, indeed, developed during peacetime... but the intention of it's design was use as a catalyst, bringing about(or so the BL had hoped) a war between the Border Worlds, and Confed. Just because the fighting hadn't started yet, doesn't mean that the intent to kill wasn't there.

We know the Lance entered service in 2672 (PSX ad)... but it was surely developed *during* the war. Less than three years isn't enough to develop a fighter... (and we know it was an outgrowth of the war-era Excalibur programme, anyway).

 

[Starkey]

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
Less than three years isn't enough to develop a fighter...

Specially in peacetime, when the budget is smaller and there´s less urgency.

 

[Manic]

Once again, I reiterate... insomnia is a bitch... Leads to all kinds of coherence problems...

 

[Wildshot]

Originally posted by Wedge009
My knowledge of history is shocking, but I thought WWII brought the world economy out of the Great Depression. There's nothing to kick up the economy like a war.

Uh oh, not another massive "Was Tolwyn right?" discussion. :/

If I remember this year's history correctly, WWII did bring America out of deppression, however immiedietly following the armistance, there was a short period of depression as troops came home. I believe it was because Trumann recalled nearly all overseas troops immiedietly due to popular opinion and there was an excess of workers and not enough jobs as all the soldiers re-entered the civilian workforce. I don't think it was even a depression, probably barely a recession, and it didn't last more than six months to a year before America go back on the uptick.

And I'm just trying to defend myself, I was accused of putting words in the character's mouthes.

 

[Raptor]

I wonder how the economies of the countries that *lost* the war and got the living daylights kicked out of them did, though. (Though I guess there would have been a a construction boom in those countries. *G*) The trouble with war as a way of stimulating the economy is that the war might not turn out the way you planned.

Best, Raptor

 

[Skyfire]

For a while, that'd be true. However, once you get the Allies into bombing every major construction facility/city, you start to slump into a downturn.

And I'm not saying that the war should have been honorable-hell, the Kilrathi sure as hell didn't fight it as such. However, based on the character and personality of Tolwyn, he would have rather seen humanity win on a more "full scale invasion" level-not his view of a suck-punch.

(Although I still would say that he's being unrealistic.)

 

[junior]

Originally posted by Raptor
I wonder how the economies of the countries that *lost* the war and got the living daylights kicked out of them did, though. (Though I guess there would have been a a construction boom in those countries. *G*) The trouble with war as a way of stimulating the economy is that the war might not turn out the way you planned.

I just finished reading The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. Very interesting book, although every now and then it helps to have a strong stomach.
In the book, the author makes the point that for most of the war, Hitler and his advisors made a point of leaving enough individuals within Germany to run the industry that the country needed in order to live. So the economic effects of the war weren't as severe as they might have been. In addition, while the Nazis originally started out with the goal of immediately liquidating certain classes of individuals, it was quickly realized that it would be much more effecient to turn them into slave labor, and work them to death. In fact, within a year or two of the establishment of the "Final Solution", the Nazi leadership was regretting all of the people that they'd killed out of hand, because they realized what a valuable labor resource they'd destroyed.
Mind you, that only applied if the Nazis thought you might be useful.

 

[Frosty]

Originally posted by Skyfire
However, based on the character and personality of Tolwyn, he would have rather seen humanity win on a more "full scale invasion" level-not his view of a suck-punch.

I don't know where you guys are coming up with this. Admiral Tolwyn wanted to destroy Kilrah, and that's precisely what happened, only instead of using the Behemoth, we used the Temblor Bomb.

I don't see how that's a sucker punch, it achieves the same thing.

 

[Wildshot]

Originally posted by Frosty
I don't know where you guys are coming up with this. Admiral Tolwyn wanted to destroy Kilrah, and that's precisely what happened, only instead of using the Behemoth, we used the Temblor Bomb.

I don't see how that's a sucker punch, it achieves the same thing.

Just look at the scale for a moment. They are both a means to the same end, but look at the scale by which they were accomplished.

The Behemoth. THE BEHEMOTH. The word itself means huge gigantic. The Behemoth would smash Kilrah because it was big, it was the Behemoth. It required massive amounts of tankers to keep it fueled, it relied on massive amounts of escorts to keep i safe. Tolwyn subscribed to the "bigger is better" school of thought and he was wrong.

Now the Temblor Bomb. Not a ship, a bomb. A tiny bomb. Barely bigger than a person. It doesn't blow the planet away, it shakes it apart. Instead of blasting Kilrah to kingdom come from orbit, a single fighter need to slip behind enemy lines and drop the big one. It was functional.

The first strategy requires both massive escort and massive secrecy, and because both are difficult with something that big, it failed. However the temblor bomb didn't require the massive escort, just massive secrecy so a sqaud of Excalibers(sp) could sneak in to drop their payload.

For you and me its a difference of strategy. For Tolwyn however, it could be a question of different philosophies. Frontal assault(Behemoth) or sneak attack(temblor). Tolwyn seems much more like the frontal assault kinda guy, the Behemoth suited his personality, just like the Temblor bomb suited Paladin's.

 

[TC]

You have Tolwyn all wrong. He didn't believe in the Behemoth project. He only supported it because it was the only solution he knew of at the time that would end the war before Belisarius could take over or the Kilrathi would win. His attitudes on the matter are all explained in False Colors. If he'd known about the Temblor Bomb he would have backed it all the way, because it had better chances. He didn't like the fact that they were looking for a weapon of mass destruction, but he wasn't an idiot

 

[junior]

Originally posted by Wildshot

The first strategy requires both massive escort and massive secrecy, and because both are difficult with something that big, it failed. However the temblor bomb didn't require the massive escort, just massive secrecy so a sqaud of Excalibers(sp) could sneak in to drop their payload.

There's also another important difference that you didn't mention. IIRC, the Behemoth could theoretically be used against any planet (provided you could get it into range, of course). The Temblor bomb, in comparison, could only be used against seismicly unstable planets, and Kilrah just happened to fit the bill.
If the Kilrathi had decided to keep fighting after the destruction of Kilrah (and hadn't lost their fleet in orbit over Kilrah), the Confederation would have had a serious problem. Even if they could have slipped Blair and a bomb into the atmosphere of other planets, they would have had to be fairly choosey about which planets they used the bomb on. There's no guarantee that the next world the Kilrathi decided to use as their capital would be vulnerable to the bomb.

 

[Dragon Lord]

Originally posted by TC
You have Tolwyn all wrong. He didn't believe in the Behemoth project. He only supported it because it was the only solution he knew of at the time that would end the war before Belisarius could take over or the Kilrathi would win. His attitudes on the matter are all explained in False Colors. If he'd known about the Temblor Bomb he would have backed it all the way, because it had better chances. He didn't like the fact that they were looking for a weapon of mass destruction, but he wasn't an idiot

I dont share your views on Tolwyn, he is an idiot and a power maniac. The behemoth project was doomed since the very beginning and something this big and slow can't be hidden from the Klirathi. Pladin knew this and saw it as a nice decoy, the Kilrathi concentrated their firepower on the Behemoth. Blair was kept in the dark in order to make it look real, this was confeds most important weapon, blair had to be there. the cats destroyed the big cannon....they think they are homefree...and paladin comes along with his T-bomb....

about the kilrathi's reaction.....I read somewere that the planet had something to do with their agressiveness.



these are just my views on the matter.....prove me wrong...if you dare

 

[TC]

Wow... you're not very smart. I just said that Tolwyn didn't like the Behemoth project. When he joined the project, he thought the design was all wrong and it would probably never work. However, as far as he knew, it was the only answer. So he worked on it. He wanted to scrap it, but he didn't think he had the time. We were outright told this along with the fact that he would have supported Paladin's project if he'd known about it, in False Colors.

I'm not sure what you mean about Blair being around. He partially there because of Behemoth. He was not there because of Temblor. The Victory was the second launch pad of the Temblor bomb, not the first. They only used it because the first attempt failed.

 

[pygmypiranha]

Originally posted by Dragon Lord
I dont share your views on Tolwyn, he is an idiot and a power maniac. The behemoth project was doomed since the very beginning and something this big and slow can't be hidden from the Klirathi. Pladin knew this and saw it as a nice decoy, the Kilrathi concentrated their firepower on the Behemoth. Blair was kept in the dark in order to make it look real, this was confeds most important weapon, blair had to be there. the cats destroyed the big cannon....they think they are homefree...and paladin comes along with his T-bomb....

Dude, Tolwyn was a main player in bringing the Confederation victory in the war against the Kilrathi. He was no idiot. Like TC said, he didn't want to go with the Behemoth project, but he did mainly because he didn't know about any other options. It was all in the best interests of the Confederation...

Originally posted by Dragon Lord
these are just my views on the matter.....prove me wrong...if you dare

If I dare.... please... don't be so dramatic.

 

[Penguin]

Originally posted by Raptor
I wonder how the economies of the countries that *lost* the war and got the living daylights kicked out of them did, though.

Well there was the Marshall Plan which went a long way to rebuilding Western Europe. Japan and West Germany, heavily devastated by the war were rebuilt into economic superpowers largely because of a favorable political climate. The US needed them against communism, hence the Marshall Plan for West Germany. Japan's economy was jumpstarted by the Korean War. The Americans placed a lot of orders for equipment with the Japanese which stimulated their economy. As for the countries east of the Iron Curtain, IIRC the 4th Five Year Plan was dedicated to rebuilding the damage.