Discussion in 'General Wing Commander Chat' started by sea_monkey, May 18, 2004.
What a well thought out argument that completely makes up for the fact that you flew the wrong mission (E rather than D).
Except that I didn't, I just got the letters confused. I actually don't think I have ever even flown 2E because it didn't occur to me until I read the game guide here that you were allowed to lose that mission. But the missions would be hard to confuse it would seem as you would fly off the Concordia and not meet up with Bear halfway through in 2E. Regardless, anyone with the Kilrathi Saga can confirm that you just die if you eject after beating 2D.
Of course that's impossible because the bartenders in Privateer are generic. That said, I'm perfectly comfortable with pointing out your argument consists of "some bartender said X, which implies A, B, or C. I think it means A and anybody who argues with me is stupid."
You did that for me when you pointed out Kilrah & Tamayo among others only had a handful of fighters.
Doesn't have to be. I never said the Epee was a fantastic bomber. Point being, a cruiser CAN launch small strike missions -- contrary to Frosty's argument -- even if you pretend the only cruiser capable of carrying Crossbows is the Gettysburg.
LOL, oh dear. Actually your example started with a negative ("reindeer can't fly"), which made it possible to say Santa Claus doesn't exist. Problem is you can't prove that there isn't 8 reindeer that are capable of flying.
So let me see, if I answer ... I'm wasting my time. If I don't answer ... it's because I don't have an answer. Well that definitely works out convenient for you. How about this: I AM wasting my time ... which is why I only answer what I feel like. My purpose here at this point is not to convince anyone here -- really, if you're calling someone viscious names because they have a slightly different view about a video game made over a decade ago, you're hopeless -- but rather the simple enjoyment of exposing the people that have been talking crap to me as the fools they are. I was perfectly content to let this thread die once Frosty and Loaf stopped posting.
Strawman, because I never said anything even close to "replacing" cruisers with carriers. Christ.
It seems our differences are more semantic than anything. Your example of the missile boat is pretty much what I would consider a textbook case of a ship becoming less important. Yes, all the ships in the Navy are important, but some more so than others. I never said cruisers could replace carriers or made them unimportant, simply that they reduced their relative strategic importance. To what degree is debatable, but I the fact that it does is really not.
Ok, but then I don't really see your original point. You were responding to my remark that AI fighters get chewed up by Fralthi II gunners in WC3.
Wow I disapeared for a bit and I though that this thread would have died by now lol....I have never seen so many long posts over the same subject..over..and over...and over...and over again.
Actually I think it is a good post..with new idea (if wrong or right) being tossed around with the heavy weights of the WC universe.
It's comical alright. Here's your "beating out" my "complaint":
This exchange is pretty much representative of the entire thread as it shows the people arguing with me not bothering to make sure their arguments are consistent in sequential posts ... but then why would they as it's not like their friends are going to call them on it.
I haven't read through the whole thread so if someone attacked this one all ready you can slap me.
The Kilrathi always had numbers and the Terrans always had technology and that seems to be how the war has always been balanced. The Kilrathi have the ships they can afford to lose, the Terrans don't. The Tiger's Claw had also probably gotten rather famous with all of its success. Losing the Tiger's Claw would kind of be like losing a symbol of victory for the Confederation. That's how I see it at least.
The Confederation was probably losing carriers all the time, the only reason a big deal is made of the Tiger's Claw is because of characters having such a strong association with it and because as I said it was so successful.
...? Being 'generic' means that something can't be invalidated? Find me a fighter pilor or an admiral or a narrator who talks about a smaller fighter force - any of those things would be a more valid source than a bartender (however blessed with 'generalism' they may be).
I don't think I pointed out either of those things, though. Kilrah had multiple waves of 25-50 fighters each in End Run (which I'm reletively sure I quoted earlier in this debate)... plus a limitless supply of Ekapshi in Wing Commander III.
All we know about Tamayo is that a Thunderbolt squadron was there. There's no 'only' inherent in that fact.
I really don't think an Epee can be used for strike missions - anti-shipping work, at most (transports, corvettes, etc.)
I'd imagine that, should the Crossbow prove succesful, that cruisers will be able to carry them in the future - but that doesn't affect the vast majority of Wing Commander's timeline.
I don't really remember that debate, but it's fairly easy to prove that reindeer can't fly... all you need to do is cite some sort of expert about their characteristics. "Scientist A says that a reindeer is defined as X".
I have to agree with sea_monkey.
Also: Hitler Hitler Hitler.
I think Seamonkey only attended the first few classes in highschool
What happened to your good intentions?
I left them on page six. *shrug*
You are pratically forcing me to give a short history brief - so I'll make super brief.
up until the 17th century navies basically (and I'm talking very basically) had 2 kind of ships - big Man-O-War ships for major battles and smaller Frigates for pattrols and "freelancing" (and punitive actions - i.e. Dekatir's operation against lybian pirates).
Around 1850 Ironclads began to show up, with the Monitor-Miramak battle (was it the miramak? not sure of the confederacy ship name) of the American Civil war bringing them to the "Headlines".
From there up to the end of the of the 19th century it was about size - who had the bigger ship with the harder armor and the bigger guns. In these times the battleship and the cruiser where born.
during that time the torpedo was invented, but it's potential was only realized at the end of the 19th Century, when a few inventors of diffrent countries suggested arming a small, high manuverable, fast ship with the torpedo - hence the "Torpedo Boat" - suddenly a small and fast and cheap weapon could threaten the mighty cruisers - the threat was considered high enough for british admiralty to developed a specialized anti-torpedo-boat weapons - the torpedo-boat-destroyer - or "Destroyer" for short.
The same thing happened with the missile boat - a small and fast and cheap weapon could threaten the mighty cruisers - and in responce cruisers are armed with long range sea-sea missiles of their own, in addition to a battary of anti-missile missiles. It's all about the weapons race.
In any case, any of the events mentioned, and not mention, have never reduce the impotance of any ship ! - they made the naval theater more "interesting"
Sure, some ships get obsolete and are removed from service (you don't see any torpedo boats serving modern navies - but that's because missile boats replaced them), but those remain in service have their "job".
P.S. - I've made it super brief, droping some important events such as development of the submarine, which in turn led to the development of the submarine hunter - another sibling of the torpedo boat...and a few more
The USS Merrimack was a scuttled Union frigate, made of wood, and was the original wooden vessel that was used as a base for conversion into the ironclad, which was renamed C.S.S. (Confederate Steam Ship) Virginia.
Random little fact (just to throw this thread even more offtopic): The ship's original name of Merrimack has often been spelled Merrimac, which was actually a completely different ship that sank in 1865. A Navy report with the incorrect spelling gave birth to the idea that the Confederate's ship really was named Merrimac originally.
The movie is an "alternate universe"
This thread isn't about the movie - if you want to argue about it, start a new thread.
Quirk's Exception: Intentional invocation of [Godwin's law] is ineffectual.
Read it and learn.
Well, i´m bored and depressed, this is a sad, sad day.
BTW Hadrian is alive ( i thought he died) he posted a few days ago in the IFH forum with the name of Hadrion.
why did you think he died?
This ship is using over 15,000 Hadrions per minute - any more and she'll split in two!
Separate names with a comma.