A Nephilim Topic

Lt.Overload

Lt.Overload

Rear Admiral
Why do the Nephilim study us so much? The captured many Confed pilots, including Maverick. So much studying leads me to thinking they might indeed be somewhat related to the Mantu for the TCS Midway ICIS Manual.
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They appeared to attack the Kilrathi first, and then Confed fighters, possibly as a act of self-defense. It is possible that due to the encounter of humans, they intend to study us and capture all technology, unfortunately, all Confed fighters who put up a really strong fight had to be destroyed.
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This is what I think that they intend to do, to capture pilots:
  1. Attack pilots
  2. If they eject...
  3. Capture them.
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What do ya think?
 
According to the ICIS manual, the nephilim expected a warrior race to oppose them.
they beleived this to be the kilrathi
the kilrathi believed this too, from the prophecy intro.

but they were defeated, so the bugs took the fight to the more worthy enemies.

but the bugs were not worthy IMHO, i spend sometimes fifteen minutes with a semi-blown to pieces fighter trading licks with a furball... you could squash the bugs with great ease, like they were.... bugs?
 
If that's true, then why don't they just blow EVERYTHING up, instead of capturing and studying bits and pieces of technology like the Mantu. And your are referring to the "Star Gods" concept, which is one posibility.
 
I think the Nephilim was scooping up every human pilot because they didn't know anything about us. If the Mantu are\were indeed part of the Nephilim then they would likely be expecting to fight the Kilrathi and have some experience with them.
 
The bugs only real streath was in their numbers. Much was the same case with the Kilrathi.
Any (intelegent) enemy is going capture the enemy whenever possible to gain any possible tactical info they can.
When Blair was captured they aparently "probed" his mind (and maybe bum) to learn about us. They were "facinated with our abilty to kill without remourse" Something that shouldn't be that shocking with a fighter pilot since it's rather impersonal. Since you only really think about killing the fighter/starship and rearly is it the person you want to kill. Your enemy is the craft and maybe a fuzzy image on the VDU or a voice in your earpiece. Its not the face to face combat a marien sees. if they do ever see the enemy at all in combat. More or less it's just trying to kill the other guy while staying alive...or trying to keep a freind's or and objective safe.
I doubt they took this ambivolence from Brair since he never enjoyed the killing, imho.
None of the Nephilem enemy EVER eject. This doesn't say much for their value of life...or at least the lives of their own worriors. The Kilrathi saw ejection as cowardace and death in combat as a gloriose thing. I can understand this. But if a great worrior with many kills and honors was on a routine parol and his fighters reactor or somthing started acting up or god knows what can happen when piloting 40 tons of exsplosives, feul, duasteal 100's of kps. Is that pilots death honorable?.. This can be understoodThere are several other reasons for the need to eject though. Equipment failure or other factors. You spend alot of time and resources training a pilot. And loosing a well seasoned, battleharded pilot and then having to replace him/her/it with a green pilot will if anything result in greater losses since the liklyhood of a fesh cedet surviving their first few missions is low. And your pool of exspienced pilots to draw off of for command positions and training dwindles. The entire command structure suffers. Eventually you take greater losses and it's over.
We could see this pre and post Battle of Terra and of course in recent history with longer campains.
What discusts me is that Thakath was permitted an ejection system. The fact that he was defeated in battle and ejected and still retain the honor of leading HONORABLE kilathi into battle when he should have had his throut ripped out in the manner befitting a coward.

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I'll just tell them you all died in a marching accident.
 
My understanding is that Blair said that the Nephilim were fascinated by our "Killer Angel" aspect--that we can be aggressive enough to crush a race like the Kilrathi while also being merciful enough to let the defeated Kilrathi live as an independent state instead of conquering them all, and even being willing to help them rebuild (a la the Marshall Plan).
 
People interested in this topic need to read the following:

View attachment alien sociologyb.doc

This is a design document from the WCP Development Disc that Captain Johnny released just recently. Though this information can not be taken as canon information, it does spell out some of the ideas behind the plan for the Nephilim. Other sources (such as the Missing Missions Update that was supplied this week as well - and was authored by Captain Johnny) support this information, though we also know there was no "definite" plan beyond WCP.

So let's take a look.

What the Alien Sociology Document says is that there are several differant levels or pyramids in the Galactic Order. At the top of the Diamond is the BIG ALIEN RACE which oversees the others. The BIG ALIEN RACE has picked three other races to be "Warlord" Races, overseeing the battles. In the next pyramid down there are "Warrior" Races, who are constantly monitored and nudged toward war by the BIG ALIEN RACE to eliminate each other. Lastly on the pyramid, there are slave and food races.

The Nephilim seem to be a Warlord Race. Not only are they a Warlord race, but there is only one other Warlord Race at the moment, instead of the normal three. The time period of WCP seems to be set during a conflict of sorts - the third Warlord Race has just been eliminated by the BIG ALIEN RACE and they're looking for a new one - the Humans.

Enter the Nephilim. This warrior race has been sent to "Test" the Humans to bring them into the position of the Third Warlord Race. Some of the Nephilim like this idea, some of them do not - they fear the humans and their high rate of production, as well as the closeness to their own place in the Galaxy. They're afraid that if the Humans gain to much power to quickly they may turn to infighting with the Nephilim, which the Big Alien Race is very much opposed to. The Nephilim have also arrived to punish the Kilrathi for losing the war - it's strongly implied that the Kilrathi/Human conflict was spurred on by the Big Alien Race. (Mantu, maybe?)

So what do the Nephilim want? Not technology, that's for sure. The Technology of the Wormhole gate is greater then anything in the Nephilim or the Human arsenal - it's 'granted' to them by the Big Alien Race. They're not interested in anything Genetic or Mental, they've had plenty of opportunities to steal both.

It seems fairly clear that the Nephilim have a Dual Purpose - they're here to Test the humans, yes, but they also want the Humans to die. They WANT the Humans to fail the test - so capturing or killing the best in the Human Race is only a logical step forward. As well, having them in their possession will better allow them to determine weather the Humans are worthy or not of ascension.
 
That's a mighty interesting read!

But still, the WCP manual and the WC3 novel (I think it's that one) strongly imply to me that the Mantu are not part of the Nephilim invasion.

I think the BIG_ALIEN_RACE will regret their choice of relegating the Kilrathi to food/slave race. I mean if the Nephilim are on the second level...I'm sorry, that's not very impressive ;).
 
Mekt-Hakkikt said:
But still, the WCP manual and the WC3 novel (I think it's that one) strongly imply to me that the Mantu are not part of the Nephilim invasion.
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I believe the Prophecy ICIS manual goes as far as to not imply but outright say that the Mantu and the bugs are not the same race at all.
 
LeHah said:
I believe the Prophecy ICIS manual goes as far as to not imply but outright say that the Mantu and the bugs are not the same race at all.
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It is possible the Mantu's have the ability to quickly evolve of years, after conflict, the Mantu could have actully transformed in the Nephilim, still retaining some, of not, few, characteristics.
 
Lt.Overload said:
It is possible the Mantu's have the ability to quickly evolve of years, after conflict, the Mantu could have actully transformed in the Nephilim, still retaining some, of not, few, characteristics.
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Highly doubtful as LeHah already stated the ICIS manual makes it clear that they are not the same species. Mantu were explorers who were given their reputation by the Kilrathi who ran into them prior to contact with the Confederation. Because of kilrathi culture they were demonized and made to be greater than they were to justify kilrathi actions against them.
 
I didn't express myself clearly enough:

the ICIS manual certainly states that the Mantu and Nephilim are not the same. It does not specifically claim that the Mantu are not part of the alien pyramid (which I thought Jason hinted at) but it still implies that the Mantu are unrelated to the BIG_ALIEN_RACE.
 
That pretty similar to the Babylon 5 plot. You have the First ones who left the Shadows and the Vorlon behind to help guid the younger races; nudging the Humans, Centari, Membari, Drazi into conflic. I guess the Narrons and a few others could be considered "food races" since throughout their perril was no ones concern.
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Nothing you say could change my mind on the matter.
-What if I said whatsinhooberinfinger?
 
Mekt-Hakkikt said:
I didn't express myself clearly enough:

the ICIS manual certainly states that the Mantu and Nephilim are not the same. It does not specifically claim that the Mantu are not part of the alien pyramid (which I thought Jason hinted at) but it still implies that the Mantu are unrelated to the BIG_ALIEN_RACE.
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You did understand me correctly, I was suggesting that it's possible the Mantu exist in the Pyramid, but then again - given what we've read about the other Alien Species it's just as likely that the Mantu were eliminated by the Aliens that compose the Pyramid during one war or another.
 
We can't know for sure but I still think the original intent was to keep the Mantu more or less totally unrelated to the WCP story. But who knows what they would have added?
 
If the bugs were "given" the wormhole device, how come the second stellar acceration device that was captured could be studied, and possibly understood by confed technicians(final sequence in secret ops, aboard the superbase station)

As for the Mantu, they were a peacefull race that just blew kilrathi from their borders the moment they attempted to cross them after their war?

And "facing off a mighty, encridibly high-powered foe" makes a better war story the being kindly asked to leave with the choice to be blown out of the sky by automated defense weaponry.
 
Mace said:
If the bugs were "given" the wormhole device, how come the second stellar acceration device that was captured could be studied, and possibly understood by confed technicians(final sequence in secret ops, aboard the superbase station)
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Because humans are smarter than the bugs? :)

Mace said:
As for the Mantu, they were a peacefull race that just blew kilrathi from their borders the moment they attempted to cross them after their war?
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Apparently yes, though they aren't described as exactly friendly in the ICIS:

"the Mantu seem to have been an insular, somewhat paranoid race of explorers and prospectors who reacted with extreme prejudice to Kilrathi aggression."

Mace said:
And "facing off a mighty, encridibly high-powered foe" makes a better war story the being kindly asked to leave with the choice to be blown out of the sky by automated defense weaponry.
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What are you referring to?

Anyway, like Jason wrote: the information in the document are highly interesting but they're not stated in an official product thus we can't know for sure how true they are for the final WCP story.
 
Mekt-Hakkikt said:
Because humans are smarter than the bugs? :)
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Also, probably, the Nephilim were forbidden by the BIG ALIEN RACE from developing Wormhole technology, and the Human's were under no such restrictions. It's not as if the BIG ALIEN RACE dropped out of another dimension and willed the Gate into being, and could do they same to remove it, they probably just provided the gate to the Nephilim and showed them how to activate it.

Mace asked the wrong question - the right question is, why were they provided a SECOND gate? Was this part of the Nephilim Testing, or instead part of the faction that wanted to eliminate Confed before it engaged the Nephilim in all out war.
 
Why did that second gate look so very different?

Mace asked the wrong question - the right question is, why were they provided a SECOND gate? Was this part of the Nephilim Testing, or instead part of the faction that wanted to eliminate Confed before it engaged the Nephilim in all out war.
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I'm thinking the second gate was created by the Nephilim, while the first was created by the BIG ALIEN RACE...
 
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