A hypothetical situation:

Zim

Spaceman
Let say that Mankind had never been there, and the Kilrathi were (probably) happily occupying the complete Prophecy Map(tm).

If they had encountered the Nephilim then, in full strength, who would have won the resulting war?

I was just wondering about that.

Regards

Zim
 
The Prophecy states that if the Kilrathi remained victorious against their enemies beforehand, they would defeat the Star Gods.
 
No, the Mantu. (Or was it Mentu? I can't separate the two for the life of me...) The Nephilim have been code-named, a lot like the Shivans in Freespace 2. No one knows exactly what they are until it's revealed.
 
Originally posted by Mystery muppet
No, the Mantu. (Or was it Mentu? I can't separate the two for the life of me...) The Nephilim have been code-named, a lot like the Shivans in Freespace 2. No one knows exactly what they are until it's revealed.


No.

The Star Gods and the Nephilim are (presumably) one and the same. The Mantu are something else.
 
Originally posted by Mystery muppet
No, the Mantu. (Or was it Mentu? I can't separate the two for the life of me...) The Nephilim have been code-named, a lot like the Shivans in Freespace 2. No one knows exactly what they are until it's revealed.

Like LOAF said, the Nephilim are the Star Gods, and the Mantu are something entirely different.
The Nephilim - Star Gods connection is hinted at in game (they show up in Kilrah first, its implied that the Kilrathi are not called 'the unaligned' while the humans are - which probably means a past Kilrathi connection, etc...), and apparently spelled out in the background design docs.
The Mantu, in comparison, are specifically mentioned in the manual, along with the all important information that the Kilrathi lost when they fought the Mantu - which was before the Kilrathi went to war against Confed (the Mantu handily defeated the Kilrathi fleets and then ignored them). The Prophecy was filled with rather grotesque warnings about what would happen should the Kilrathi fail, and if the Mantu were the Star Gods, it is doubtful they would have ignored the Kilrathi.

Just for fun - Shivan/Nephilim comparisons and contrasts

Comparisons
Both have huge black ships with lots of sharp, spiky things on them (although the smaller Nephilim ships are a lot smoother than the smaller Shivan ships).
Both have advanced technology compared to humanity.
Both literally come out of nowhere and launch an offensive.
Nothing is known about the original home, culture, or motivations of either race.
The Allied races in the games have legends regarding cosmic destoyers, and said legends are interpreted to mean the Nephilim and Shivans.

Contrasts
The Nephilim are very vocal while the Shivans are utterly silent.
The Nephilim are a biological life form, while the only current candidate for a Shivan life form appears to be a construct of some sort.
Aside from the Lucifer (basically its shield), Nephilim combat technology appears to be superior in every way, shape, and form to Shivan technology. The Nephilim can open worm holes, while the Shivans are still dependent on devices built by the Ancients to keep unstable subspace nodes open. The only possible exception might be in beam turret technology, as Nephilim anti-cap ship weapons tend to focus on bombers and cap missiles (but since there's currently no way to compare the damage potential of the weapons on each side, even this could be off).
The smaller Nephilim ships (corvettes and fighters) tend to look more Vasudan than Shivan (more rounded, few or no sharp projections, etc...).
The Nephilim spend almost the entire game on the defensive, while the Shivans spend the entire game on the offensive (in all fairness, the Shivans send a much bigger fleet than the Nephilim do).

Note: this is just for fun. Feel free to add, and don't take it too seriously.
 
OK, just for fun :)

In the first mission where the Nephilim were encountered they were too easy to destroy. So they didn't seem to be too dangerous. Their ships should have been stronger.

In FS the Shivans were more fearable first encountered. They gave me hard times. You had to fight them without shields only with your crappy ML-16 Lasers that did nearly no damage to their sheilds. One light fighter could wipe out your whole squad. And their ships looked fierce.
 
Originally posted by junior



The Mantu, in comparison, are specifically mentioned in the manual, along with the all important information that the Kilrathi lost when they fought the Mantu - which was before the Kilrathi went to war against Confed (the Mantu handily defeated the Kilrathi fleets and then ignored them). The Prophecy was filled with rather grotesque warnings about what would happen should the Kilrathi fail, and if the Mantu were the Star Gods, it is doubtful they would have ignored the Kilrathi.


I remember hearing how the Kilrathi had lost their fleet, or something of that accord, and then started preparing a much more powerful one, when the Mantu pulled back from the war. That doesn't necessarily seem like they're ignoring them, so much as cutting their losses to deal with a (presumably) different, and more potent, threat. (It's best not to fight a two front war after all.)

So while it might be ignoring, it might be strategy. To be honest I'm not sure which it was, maybe both. They may have pulled back thinking the destruction of the Kilrathi would only have tied up valuable resources. *shrug*
 
I just read through the WCP manual and nowhere does it state that the Kilrathi were defeated, but rather that a standoff was reached. It also states that "the Mantu seem to have been an insular , somewhat paranoid race of explorers and prospectors who reacted with extreme prejudice to Kilrathi aggression" (WCP Manual).

I think this means that after the standoff was reached the Mantu withdrew into their own domains, not because of defeat, or the need to face another threat, but because of their own insularity.

Another reason to disbelieve Kilrathi defeat at the hands of the Mantu would be after their defeat the Kilrathi would expect to be destroyed by the Star Gods, according to the Prophecy. As this doesn't happen the Kilrathi would be able to challenge the legitimacy of the Sivarist Cult, possibly leading to a deviation from its culture of aggressive expansionism. Since the Kilrathi never faltered from the path of conquest this suggests the Kilrathi never suffered any major defeat until the Terran conflict.

But then this poses the question of why didn't the Kilrathi continue the war with the Mantu, if they weren't defeated? Afterall they pursued 3-4 decades of all out war with Confed.
 
I was thinking maybe the star gods were a far more powerful race who sent the Mantu to test the strength of the Kilrathi. The Star Gods later came across Confed and recalled the Mantu to see how the fight between Confed and the Kilrathi would end.
 
Originally posted by Penguin

But then this poses the question of why didn't the Kilrathi continue the war with the Mantu, if they weren't defeated?

If I recall correctly, they were preparing to do so after they took out the humans. They built their megacarriers (or was it the dreadnoughts?) near Mantu space, and the Emperor and Thrakhath were speaking of being prepared to fight "the Mantu and the threat from the Galactic Core", once the Kilrathi/Terran war was finished.
 
the mantu conflict with the kats, stopped because both sides got battled to a halt, however wcp's manual conflicts with the other in mentioning the mantu (the confederation was apparently the first serious challenge to the kats according to the other manuals) it is safe to assume that since at the end of the mantu war, the kats were fighting us, and! also the mantu i think are said to be fightin another war on their territory, possibly with the nephilim, that both sides just kinda forgot about it, thought "leave them their territory, they aint doin nowt"

the problem with thinking that the mantu are the nephilim, is that the kats knew the mantu, as in they had fought recently, the star gods theory is more likely, since the "war" with them was in ancient history.

so to summarise, nephilim is more likely to be star gods, but cannot be mantu
and the mantu-kat war stopped, because both sides were busy elsewhere, and so they simply stopped invading the territories, the mantu were after all protecting themselves :)

as for the nephilim shivan link, the shivans are seen (at least where i am in fs1) as a kinda super-race, almost like the precursors, in both star control and star trek (they have a different name tho in star trek i think ) whereas , only the kats think the nephilim are "super gods" and even tahts only a theory, i doubt many kilrathi despite the religion would believe that. after all, if a man appeared claiming to be christ re-incarnated, how many christians would belive him? and the nephilim arent even claiming to be the star gods
 
The Mantu are a 'known' race... like the Firekken, the Wu or the Mopokes. The Kilrathi fought a major war with the Mantu in 2431, which ended with no decisive victory. The Mantu withdrew their forces to fight a greater enemy in another theater (towards the galactic core). The Mantu are, as the ICIS manual puts it, a race of paranoid, insular explorers who were probably attacked by the Kilrathi.

The Kilrathi, having not accomplished the complete victory against the Mantu, demonized them as they now do humans. The idea that the Mantu would return to finish the war they withdrew from was firmly believed by the current generation, as a minor skirmish was fought with them again in 2598 (again ending in a draw).

The question is not whether or not the Mantu are the Nephilim... that's fairly impossible... but whether the Mantu were *fighting* the Nephilim.
 
LOAF - interesting idea on the Mantu fighting the Nephilim. The Nephilim and the Kilrathi both seem to be a part of something much larger (although the Kilrathi only have the vaguest idea of it due to the Prophecy), as indicated by the Nephilim name for them - 'The Unaligned' (or was it 'The Nonaligned'?). Unaligned indicates that they are not aligned with a group (duh!), and also implies that there is more than one group out there. 'The' indicates a singular status, which could either mean that the Nephilim are referring to humanity as part of a collective whole (i.e. you are either aligned or not, and humanity just happens to be the only unaligned race in the area the Nephilim know of), or that humanity has something of a unique status among the powers in the galaxy (or at least those known to the Nephilim). Another puzzle that will hopefully be solved on of these days by a new game.
Also, where does the information about the Mantu fighting another enemy come from? I remember a brief discussion in the early part of the WC3 novel between the Emperor and Thrakhath regarding an unnamed enemy on the far side of the Empire (presumably the Mantu), but I'm not familiar with any other references beside that and the WCP manual.

Madman - the only problem with comparing the Shivans to the Precursors is that the Shivans BEAT the Precursors (in this case, the Ancients).
:p
 
Gah.
Hijacking the thread, but this idea won't leave me alone (stupid ideas!).
It all started with the idea that the Mantu were too busy dealing with someone else to properly crush the Kilrathi. There's an old board game called Starfire (David Weber wrote some novels based on the setting) that had a group of raiders, the Tangri, attack one of the major nations, the Orions (btw, this was first contact between the two). The Orions crushed the initial attack, backtracked through several systems destroying everything as they went, and then left the Tangri alone so that the Orions could defend themselves against another alien race (the Arachnids).
Anyway, this setting has some odd similarities with Wing Commander.
Humans set out into space, and encounter a race of warlike felines that are obsessed with combat and honor (the Khanate of Orion). The humans defeat the felines, and in the process, ally themselves with an avian race (the Ophiuchi). Eventually, the humans and the Orions become allies against a race of relentless outside agressors that are somewhat insectoid in appearance (in this case, arachnid, which is what they are called).
In WC, the humans go to war against a race of felines that are obsessed with combat and honor (the Kilrathi), and eventually defeat the Kilrathi, gaining an avian ally in the process (the Firekkans). Eventually, the humans and the Kilrathi become allies against a race of relentless outside agressors that are somewhat insectoid in appearance.
*chuckle*
There are some differences in the Starfire plot, though. The humans and the Orions fight two wars (the Ophiuchi form a third side in the second war, and join the humans toward the end). The Orions then fight a fourth race (centauroids - the Gorm), and after the war, the two become allies. The humans and the Orions are first allied in a war against a race of intelligent, xenophobic, xenocidal badgers (the Rigellians), and its the badgers, not the cats, that have their homeworld destroyed (and every other world the alliance can find). The humans then fight a war against a race of aliens that worship planet Earth (the Thebans), and then later on the Arachnids appear. The Starfire plot has also been developed beyond the Arachnid war, while WC is still waiting around.
Finally, the concept of felines obsessed with honor and combat can probably best be traced to Niven's Kzinti, and for whatever reason, the arch-type refuses to disappear.

On a totally unrelated, and more on-topic, note, has Chris Roberts ever given an opinion on the plot of WCP? I wonder how much of the ideas behind the Nephilim and the Prophecy were mapped out before he left, and what he thinks of the direction the last WC game took?
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF


The question is not whether or not the Mantu are the Nephilim... that's fairly impossible... but whether the Mantu were *fighting* the Nephilim.

I remember engaging in a debate on the Forum a few months ago about this, where that's a theory a few people had come up with-and was dismissed.

If I remember correctly, they said something about the Nephilim not needing gate technology in that case to get to the Kilrathi worlds as if they're around, and they won, they could just go through Mantu space. (Although, I'd assume, if they lost the war, they couldn't go through Mantu space.)

There was another reason or two for the idea being shot down too, but I've a terrible memory and can't recall what it is. :)
 
I don't think the Mantu were fighting the Nephilim. If they were, why would the Nephilim then pursue aggressive war against the Kilrathi? If the bugs and the Mantu really were fighting one another it would make sense for the bugs to seek the Kilrathi as allies, rather than enemies. Unless the Kilrathi destroyed any diplomatic attempts by the Nephilim, which might explain the Nephilim opening the wormhole on the doorstep of Kilrah, the empire's diplomatic/administrative nerve center...
 
eh? I thought the term "unaligned" had to do with our DNA structure. Since the "Nephilim" have already dug so deeply into our biology, and share a hive mind, I thought that the term was biological.

Anyway, the Mantu and the Star Gods are mentioned as separate races in the Prophecy manual.

I also have trouble believing that the "Nephilim" are technologically superior to Confed. "Oh, but they have their gate technology!" Well, yahoo. It doesn't show that they're technologically superior, just that they have a technology Confed doesn't have yet. Although, that is techinically incorrect since Confed controls one of the gates at the end of Secret Ops.
 
Why do the Nephilim do anything they do?
The taking of humans (and apparently Kilrathi) for study I can understand, although why the Nephilim feel so compelled to keep doing it for so long is less understandable (Unless they used the extra prisoners as guinea pigs for the illness in SOP? That would be awfully quick work, though.). Little else of what they do is easily understood.
They apparently appeared to the Kilrathi thousands of years ago (they also appear to have issued the Prophecy, although its entirely possible this is another case of the Kilrathi demonizing the victors, much as they have apparently done with the Mantu). The Kilrah system is important to them for some reason. They are fascinated with the psychology of humanity's warriors. And they call humans 'The Unaligned'.
If the Prophecy is to be believed, the destruction of Kilrah was important to them.
Given that, the idea of a race that was fighting a war with the Mantu and yet still felt the need to open a wormhole directly into the Kilrah system doesn't at all surprise me. I'd frankly be surprised if they were involved in battle with the Mantu (the whole Prophecy thing makes me feel that the Nephilim come from further away than just a couple of star nations over), but it would be fairly easy for me to accept if that proved to be the case.
 
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