A discussion on the true nature of the Nephilim

Originally posted by Raptor
I could equally say that it is possible that Blair carried on a secret affair with Flint that no-one ever knew about(despite the fact that her fighter was shot down over Kilrah and the canon says Blair eneded up with Rachel) based on the scene where Blair ends up with Flint.
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Hehe, Maniac mentions that in the WCIV novel.
 
Yayness I bought WCIV!!!! YAY!!! (waited for over six months for someone to drop into a second hand shop with it)

With regards to the Black Lance....every government, whether 'democratic' or not, requires some sort of sinister organisation within to get things done and protect their interests.
 
I treat them as mutually exclusive because the picture they paint of Blair is mutually exclusive. In one endgame, he is flying, doing what he loves best, serving with the Border Worlders he fought with in the game. In other . . .
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Well, you’re only focusing on Blair and so only proving my point.

. . . he's a brooding figure who commands the Black Lance he fought in the game.
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Yes, he does seem brooding, but does that mean his morals have been corrupted? And how do you know the “Black Lance fighters” he has at least some control over are being flown by the same evil people or for the same evil purpose or philosophy? You’re assuming too much. (But sure, those conjectures are possibilities.)

I continue to be puzzled over how some react to this particular endgame. I certainly can understand why we (I include myself) tend to think right off the bat that the “Black Lance fighters” referred to constitute the same evil force as in the game. We simply fall back on the familiar. Perfectly natural. But as I tried to suggest in an earlier post, that initial reaction creates a paradox because it contradicts what has come to be familiar about Blair.

Yet some of us are apparently in denial over this. Oh yeah, we have faith in the Black Lance to continue to be the Black Lance, but when it comes to Blair, we chuck that same kind of faith like a hot potato! It’s illogical. But I guess what it really speaks to is how incredibly cynical some of us are about humanity generally. (Wow, now there’s a heavy point.) Stop it! Get a grip! Has Blair taught you nothing? You’re starting to think like Tolwyn and it frightens me.:)

In sum, we can’t say for sure what’s going on in that one endgame. (But it’s full of challenging possibilities.)

The two scenes show the kinds of man Blair could have become depending on the choices he made. They are *alternate* paths, and so are mutually exclusive.
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No, I can’t agree that “as Blair goes, so goes the universe” (which is what you seem to be saying). Don’t pollute questions of canon with allegory. Those should be mutually exclusive. (Though a Kilrathi might not think so.)

You can't remove the rest of the scenario and then insist that one fact in it is a credible possibility . . .
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You have that reversed in this case. But yes, you can, either way.

. . . any more than a reporter can print a story that is generally contradicted by the facts, and insist one assertion in it is a credible possibility just because there's nothing to contradict it.
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You are kidding me, right? Reporters most certainly have done that, as have editorial writers, as have media critics and pundits, as have we . . . in fact as we do nearly every time we read or listen to a news account in the way we should–with a grain of salt and an independent mind. You surely aren’t saying, are you, that when you yourself read a news report you always believe either all of it or none of it?

I could equally say that it is possible that Blair carried on a secret affair with Flint that no-one ever knew about (despite the fact that her fighter was shot down over Kilrah and the canon says Blair eneded up with Rachel) based on the scene where Blair ends up with Flint.
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If you think you can satisfy the “uncontradicted” standard, then knock yourself out! But for now let’s stick with the one endgame in WCIV.

Or then again, let’s not. That endgame doesn’t so much prove as simply underscore the possibility that the Black Lance survives, in some organized form, in the other endgame too. That was the only (and I must say, rather humble) point I was trying to make when I referred to the one endgame originally. (Though I do also like that endgame, very much, for the paradox it presents.)

I say the endgame doesn’t prove the possibility because it’s already proven by the current state of the canon. I sympathize that you really, really want the Black Lance to be no more. (I guess that explains why you’d go to the extreme of denying a “mere” possibility.) But the fact is there isn’t any scene or statement or “epilogue” that constitutes a definitive final chapter about the Black Lance let alone some of the other elements in this dark story. Until there is, their fate is an open question subject to arguments about possibilities (and which of them are probabilities). But keep the faith!
 
One would suggest that the Admiral Blair endgame is a tragic ending. The hero has become part of the villainous organisation he fought. He has comprimised his values (ie, blowing apart Ella, etc) and thus becomes the brooding, sad figure he is in that endgame.

Personally, I favour this ending as it is more of a cynical ending. Everything DIDN'T turn out right. Although I always like a happy ending, it seemed more fitting to see Blair as a fallen figure.
 
It's a very valid point though.

Remember what Blair says about what separates a warrior from a killer and all that (to Catscratch when you rescue Melek & co).

Part of the heroic appeal of characters like Blair is that they are nearly always fighting against the odds. Blair leading Confed forces against the weaker Border Worlds is almost like he's bullying them. He is no longer the hero.
 
BLair is a hero because he did not become someone like Tolwyn, that he stuck to his ideals despite what he had to give up and when faced with the opportunity to take the power Tolwyn had, he turned it down. Suggesting anything else about Blair belittles him and what he did. Look at Tolwyn. He was a hero but he fell. YOu dont see anyone saying they thought it was a cool turn for the character, making him more enjoyable. Half the people here dont even want to accept that Tolwyn did change like that. What kind of precedence is that, we cnat ever expect our heroes to stay that way, that no matter what good they have done, they are gonna turn bad in the end and fall beneath the ideals they fought for? Well fuck that.
 
well, thats all well and good but what if you got the evil ending to WC4? that means you didnt stick to your ideals, and your just as bad, yet youre still a hero
 
But the evil ending isnt what ACTUALLY happened so its a moot point. I did get the evil ending the first time, but i didnt take any civilian lives, and i stuck to my morals and ideals. It just happened. I didnt like it and the next time i played i insured that I got the good ending.
 
Heh. That's pretty much what I've been saying all along, Superdon. That ending isn't the path taken, so it's impossible to base anything off it.

Oh, and Nemesis, as for your statement that you "sympathise with me becuase I so desperately want the Black Lance not to exist", I could say that I sympathise with you because you so badly want the Black Lance to exist that you will grasp at any straw that they do. But let's not get into argumentem ad hominem, okay? For one thing it's a sign of weakness, and for another it's the kind of of thing that leads to flame wars and threads being shut down. Let's stick to what we know from the canon rather than persoanl comments.

As for denying possibility, yes, anything is possible in the WC universe. It's possible that Blair and Flint have been carrying on a secret tryst ever since the Treaty of Torgo. But is it credible? No, because the canon says that that wasn't the path taken. Same with the Black Lance. If Blair did not become an Admiral who was commanding the Black Lance, then what evidece is there from that scene that the Black Lance exists. None, pure and simple.

Best, Raptor
 
Originally posted by Madman
well, thats all well and good but what if you got the evil ending to WC4? that means you didnt stick to your ideals, and your just as bad, yet youre still a hero
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Which, I belive was the whole point of that ending. If you believe and act as if the end of justfies the means, you end up going down Tolwyn's path. It's a phyrric victory, because you defeat him only to become him. And given the nature of WC4, that's as much of a defeat as any of the other endings.

Best, Raptor
 
I could say that I sympathise with you because you so badly want the Black Lance to exist that you will grasp at any straw that they do. But let's not get into argumentem ad hominem, okay? For one thing it's a sign of weakness . . .
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To “sympathize” is to tend to agree. So I have no idea what you’re trying to say. But I meant what I said. I agree with you in that I don’t want the Black Lance of WCIV to survive either.

That ending isn't the path taken, so it's impossible to base anything off it. . . . If Blair did not become an Admiral who was commanding the Black Lance, then what evidece is there from that scene that the Black Lance exists. None, pure and simple.
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No, you’ve reversed the logic again, and it matters this time. The Black Lance exists in WCIV. So the proper question is whether it no longer exists come the end and the aftermath of WCIV.

You keep saying that the one endgame is irrelevant to the question because that endgame did not come to pass according to WC canon. But you’re overlooking the common points in time, which are themselves canon, from which (as far as we know) the two endgames diverge–Blair’s confrontation with Tolwyn before the Senate and Tolwyn’s downfall. In that confrontation, Tolwyn’s extreme ambitions, the Black Lance, and the previously-thought defunct GE program are exposed, the proposed war against the Border Worlds is voted down, and everyone appears to recognize who the real enemy has been and still is.

Things don’t look so good for the Black Lance do they? We should have some confidence, I would think, that its days are numbered. So what happens to it? Enter the two alternative endgames. The first, the one we all like, doesn’t address the question at all. (That’s disappointing, not to mention unhelpful.) The second, by one possible interpretation, says the same old Black Lance is alive and well. (That’s bad news, no question.) So what happened there? We just don’t know, and that’s the problem when we turn back to consider the first endgame, which is canon. How do we know the same thing that “went wrong” in the other won’t go wrong here too?

Now your solution to this seems to be that it’s all the fault of “Admiral Blair” in the second endgame and so he’s the sine qua non in this regard. But is he? It’s certainly possible, but not terribly credible. One would have to believe either that no one else is involved in helping Blair save the Black Lance, or if there are others, these agents will never act if he’s out of the picture (having instead gone off to be a flight instructor).

That’s a pretty slender reed we’re being asked to lean on. So we can either go into denial or face up to the possibility that the Black Lance survived after all.

If you believe and act as if the end of justfies the means, you end up going down Tolwyn's path. It's a phyrric victory, because you defeat him only to become him. And given the nature of WC4, that's as much of a defeat as any of the other endings.
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So it would seem. But that’s the allegory of the game and has nothing to do with whether, as a matter of canon, the Black Lance survives or dies.
 
Wow, you go Nemesis! I could feel that A-bomb of logic from way over here!
 
Sigh. I know this is starting to get repetive, but as rhe point doesn't seem to be getting through, I will say it again. It doesn't matter what ending we favour or what ending that we think is the most logical when it comes to canon. What matters is the ending that the WC authors choose to go with. And in the ned of the WC novel, Blair doesn't head the Black Lance. He rejects it and says that path offers more evil than good. He is charged with tracking down any of the Black lancers that have slipped off, not with reforging them into some kind of Aryan guard.

Now, you can say till you are blue in the face that your view is logical and that there is nothing to disprove it. Similarly, i can say till I'm blue in the face that Flint did in fact survive having her fighter blown up (after all, as Flint was in WC3, isn't the onus on the canon to prove that she is dead? That's after all, the logic that you're using) and based on the ending where Flint and Blair are in the shuttle together, they ride off to carry on a secret affair. I could make a similar case for just about anything in the WC universe. You can build any case you want of logic, but if it's not supported by evidence, then it's nothing more than idle speculation.

Best, Raptor
 
cause she was having her period and was cought off guard and got shot.

no, actually, its probly cause, not everyone survives miraculously a suicide mission like that
 
Heh. You would think she would have had time to pull the eject handle in the time it took to make that speech about how she could have loved Blair, don't you? :D

Best, Raptor
 
just to further raptors annoyance about the wc4 canon thing :)
the point is that its an interactive game, what the books say do not affect the universe for you, if you played the entire series and got the wc4 bad ending then thats what youd see as "canon" thats the point of the game, its your choice, the BL either exist with blair in charge or appear not to exist (whether thats because they dont, or cause theyre hiding i dont know or care) the point is not that we are grasping for the existence of the BL, but that they might exist, not due to a failure to exterminate them, but due to you getting the evil ending.

further more, if the wc makers wanted the wc4 novel to be "canon" then they should have mentioned the outcom in the wcp manual, otherwise people like me who dont have it class it as irrelevant, and people who dont know which to believe cant decide
 
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