Who's better?

In regards to Temblor vs. Bio, a Bioweapon will kill everything, and make the planet uninhabitable for hundreds of years.
A Temblor on the other hand, kills everything and makes the planet unihabitable permanently.

Ah, that's something I forgot to say about Khasra. He was a glory-seeker too.
 
Grrr, I quoted my source, the Wing Commander IV novel, Paulson's explanation of Seethers actions, there's really no room for argument regarding the treatment of terrorists.

Regarding the various superweaposn at the end of the war... note that the Strontium 90 clad warheads which destroyed planets biospheres did not render them *permanently* uninhabitable, as that Buford's World was resettled shortly after the war...
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Regarding corruption: "Thrak and the Emperor though they were superior to most if not all other clans" -- this is because Kilrathi social constructs dictate that they *were* superior to all other clans.

------------------
Long live the Confederation,
Ben "Bandit" Lesnick
( loaf@wcnews.com - 302228)

The Wing Commander CIC

"You go, LOAF! Get some!" -JPG

Bombardez les Ptitard!
 
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I quoted a source too, LOAF. If that had been the case, then why bother with Jazz? Interrogate him, and then lob him out the airlock. Why bother with the whole fancy court-martial, execution at Earth deal? Surely not for Blair's sake; it must have been pretty darned embarrasing for Tolwyn to have to admit that he was wrong, and that the Mandarins had infiltrated Confed that well. Besides, who says Paulsen wasn't lying? He knew at least a bit about what was going on. It would be natural for him to cover Seether.
 
I think the character who enraged me the most was Hobbes. when I first played WC3, I was so blinded by Blair`s and Hobbes` friendship, I wouldn`t listen to any of the suspicions regarding him. when I found out he was actually the traitor, I got so angry with myself, I almost smashed my PC.
 
<Downtown Voice> Back off, Blair! Hobbes is no traitor! </Downtown Voice>

You can't blame Hobbes for what he did. Once the trigger reactivated his true personality, Hobbes was dead. Ralgha Nar Hhallas, on the other hand, was a loyal Kilrathi. He had no choice but to obey his Prince. I always hoped that he'd somehow survive it all. But he probably wouldn't have even tried to eject in that last fight.

Anyway, was it really so disturbing, that you'd want to smash your computer?
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Well, not THAT disturbing. I was simply trying to express my feelings.

Now that I think about it, it wasn`t Hobbes that made me enraged, it was actually my actions during the game that made his triggering so successful, if you understand what I mean. In retrospect, it kinda added to the game experience.
 
You *didn't* quote a source you made a theory regarding an obscure quotation... go back and *READ* the section of the WCIV novel I pointed out and you will see it explicitly explained that although Seether's execution was abnormal it was *legal*.

------------------
Long live the Confederation,
Ben "Bandit" Lesnick
( loaf@wcnews.com - 302228)

The Wing Commander CIC

"You go, LOAF! Get some!" -JPG

Bombardez les Ptitard!

[This message has been edited by Bandit LOAF (edited February 24, 2000).]
 
I did quote a source - Angel. The quote, as you well know, comes from WC 2, and thus is far more relevant than anything the WC 4 book says, since the whole Seether execution thing is just a by-play. Jazz is the real issue here. And unless you point out what exactly is wrong with my interpretation of the Angel quote, I don't think you're proving anything.

By the way, I've told you a hundred times, and I'll tell you again. I have not read, nor have I even seen the WC 4 book. So if you want to use stuff from the books as arguments, provide proper quotes rather than obscure references to something somebody said about something else.

[This message has been edited by Quarto (edited February 24, 2000).]
 
Regarding corruption: "Thrak and the Emperor though they were superior to most if not all other clans" -- this is because Kilrathi social constructs dictate that they *were* superior to all other clans.
Click to expand...

No, that's now what I mean LOAF, yes they are suposed to be *superior*, but Thrak and his grand-dady didn't care for the Kilrathi race IMO. If they would win the TK war they would kill of all clans that weren't sucking up to them. "The Codices teach us that the first duty is to the Race..." IMO, Thrak and the Emperor didn't think like this: "Our clan won the throne, so we're superior to all clans, they must obey us." but like this: "We won the war for the throne, which means we're better than any other cat alive. All other clans except those few wich always supported us are lower than dirt, and deserve to die".
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------------------
A good soldier is not the one who die for his country, it's the one who makes his enemy die for his.
Gen. Patton
 
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<grin> Earthworm, what happens every time a new government is elected in a democracy? Half the top-level beaurocrats are reassigned, and the other half retire... of course, those two groups don't include the beaurocrats who supported the new government - _they_ get promoted
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.
It's just that the Kilrathi are much more direct, you see. Other than that, there's hardly any difference
biggrin.gif
.
 
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Once again you have ignored my point. Angel says *NOTHING OF RELEVENCE*! *YOU* are creating evidence where there is none.

I reply to hundreds of messages in dozens of groups every day. I don't remember who does and does not have the Wing Commander IV novel. Here is the discussion between Blair and Paulson.

Paulson: That pilot was, as the law tapes say, 'taken in arms,' serving a terrorist rebel organization. He was a traitor. He deserved to be summarily executed.

Blair: Since when? Article 9 of the Confederation Charter prohibits punishment without due process. Every kid learns that in school - it's part of the primary curriculum. Damn it, sir, we showed more compassion to Kilrathi POWs taken in battle than that bastard did to that poor kid. The Kilrathi weren't coevered by any article but their pilots were warriors worthy of respect.

Paulson: "The Admirality Court has ruled that the rebels have rejected the Confederation's authority. Therefore, they are not entitled to the priviledges of citizenship.

Blair: Since when does a court have the power to suspend the Articles of Confederation?

Paulson: Emergency Decree 242, the so-called Martial Law declaration, grants military authorities 'extraordinary powers.' The assembly never rescinded it after the war.

Blair: I didn't know that.

Be Blair.

Regarding your utterly baseless allegations... Tolwyn wasn't flying the Broadsword that saved Jazz and Paulson did *NOT* have a clue regarding what Seether was doing.

Re: Earthworm: "Our clan won the throne, so we're superior to all clans, they must obey us." but like this: "We won the war for the throne, which means we're better than any other cat alive. All other clans except those few wich always supported us are lower than dirt, and deserve to die".

I'm not sure where that's coming from... it seems a bit baseless to me. Thrakhath and company wanted to consalidate their power (re: their restructuring of the clan system in Pilgrim Stars & WCA), but I don't see any evidence that they wanted to off everybody else -- except their ancient enemies, the Ki'ra.


------------------
Long live the Confederation,
Ben "Bandit" Lesnick
( loaf@wcnews.com - 302228)

The Wing Commander CIC

"You go, LOAF! Get some!" -JPG

Bombardez les Ptitard!
 
What the hell? When did I say Tolwyn was flying the Broadsword (which was actually a Sabre, flown by Angel)? If you're gonna say something about "utterly baseless allegations", then read the post you're replying to - carefully. It might save you from looking like a fool.

And while on the subject of looking like a fool, I withdraw my comment regarding Paulsen knowing about Seether. The passage indeed gives no such indication. However, given the very nature of WCIV, it was a fair assumption - most certainly not baseless.

Thanks for posting the WC IV passage, by the way. It's always more fun to argue on even footing.

Now that I've read this passage, I believe that I can safely say that it is irrelevant. Why? Well, let's see. It talks about giving the Admirality Court extraordinary powers, I'll grant you that. It then says that the Court has rescinded the rebels' citizenship. So, Seether could do whatever he wants with the pilot serving the BW.
BUT, it does NOT say anything about the Mandarins. If you can find another passage which states that the Adm. Court has made the same ruling about the Mandarins, or at least that this ruling was made before the BW crisis, then you might actually have an argument. Unfortunately, it will still be an irrelevant argument, since Jazz had not admitted to being a Mandarin. He admitted to having Mandarin contacts, and he admitted to treason, but he did not admit to being a member of a terrorist organisation. Thus, even if your above mentioned ruling applied to the Mandarins, it would still have to be proven, in a court-martial or whatever, that he was a Mandarin.

As for the Angel quote... ah hell. Forget it. If you can't see the relevance of it, then I won't even bother trying to explain it to you.

One thing I don't understand though (and this is not a part of the argument, it's just something I'm curious about
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), is how this law applies to the Kilrathi. I mean, Blair says that the Kilrathi weren't covered by any articles, and yet they were (when taken prisoner) treated with respect. Here, on the other hand, we have the BW, who are not granted even this customary respect. So, does this mean that technically, Confed soldiers were allowed to execute captured Kilrathi? Or does the complete lack of any sort of protection only apply to rebel/terrorist groups, rather than foreign nations? If it's that second one... well, didn't Tolwyn say in the newsbrief that they are considering the BW a foreign nation?
Like I said, this is not a part of the argument, so don't get excited. It's just something I'm curious about.
 
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Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot about the accident that left you lacking the part of your brain that connects two simple concepts. Allow me to explain... you stated that: "it must have been pretty darned embarrasing for Tolwyn to have to admit that he was wrong", indicating that this would have been a good reason to let Blair kill Jazz. Since *Tolwyn* wasn't flying the *Broadsword* (Angel was in a Broadsword, Blair was in a Sabre), he did not have the option of just letting Blair kill Jazz. Capiche?

Regarding Paulson & Seether -- the novel (and to a certain extent the game) explains that Paulson is not part of The Project. He is a politician to whome Tolwyn owes a favor -- namely, being given a combat command in order to be promoted to Rear Admiral. He is *quite* dismayed to learn, when Seether suddenly appears on the Lexington, that he is not *actually* in command.

Furthermore, the descision of the admirality court was that the Border Worlds are to be considered terrorists rather than an actual descision. This ruling is allowed because of the Martial Law decree which existed during the war, stating that terrorists do not have the right to fair trial. Mandarin or not, Jazz was a terrorist. (And he didn't really need to *admit* anything... (although, to note, he *DID* confess to being a traitor).

The Angel quote, as I stated before, is in no way specific -- "Justice will be decided in court, not with particle cannons". Even if it *were* more specific, it's not contradictory to the *very* specific TPOF novel... if *Blair* doesn't know the law, why should Angel?

The law doesn't apply to the Kilrathi -- the Geneva Convention governs the treatment of *Prisoners of War*, which is what captured Kilrathi would be.

------------------
Long live the Confederation,
Ben "Bandit" Lesnick
( loaf@wcnews.com - 302228)

The Wing Commander CIC

"You go, LOAF! Get some!" -JPG

Bombardez les Ptitard!
 
Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot about the accident that left you lacking the part of your brain that connects two simple concepts. Allow me to explain... you stated that: "it must have been pretty darned embarrasing for Tolwyn to have to admit that he was wrong", indicating that this would have been a good reason to let Blair kill Jazz. Since *Tolwyn* wasn't flying the *Broadsword* (Angel was in a Broadsword, Blair was in a Sabre), he did not have the option of just letting Blair kill Jazz. Capiche?
Click to expand...

Wow, so not only are you implying that I'm mentally impaired, but you're also trying to explain the meaning of my own words to me. Incredible.
Like I said, Read. Read again. And again. Perhaps eventually you'll actually understand what I was saying, and stop trying to tell me what my own bloody words mean.
First of all then, what I was talking about was NOT Blair killing Jazz out there, but rather, and I quote:
why bother with Jazz? Interrogate him, and then lob him out the airlock. Why bother with the whole fancy court-martial, execution at Earth deal? Surely not for Blair's sake; it must have been pretty darned embarrasing for Tolwyn to have to admit that he was wrong, and that the Mandarins had infiltrated Confed that well.
Click to expand...

Wow, now that I read it again... it still appears to mean exactly what I wanted it to. Do you have one of those selective reading disorders that you so often talk about?
Incidentally, why don't you go and play WC2 again? It most definitely is a Sabre. As a matter of fact, you only have to take a look at the intro to SO2 to see that.

Re: Paulsen & Seether. I stand corrected.

Re: Angel quote. Fair enough. But it's still not fair of you to assume that everybody else has memorised the WC 4 novel. And without that quote (which you only provided later), it's a most credible assumption.

And finally, Jazz. Well, this is one of those things that really depend on one's interpretation. That being the case, I'm sure you'll never agree with me
smile.gif
. Still, I'll write my argument, in vain hope that you'll see it the way I see it.
You say that he didn't need to admit anything - you're wrong. Without his admission, there was nothing to connect him to the crimes commited. That's why it took so long to figure it out, non?
Still, his "conversation" with Angel and later on with Blair revealed a lot. But did it really prove he was a terrorist? Not really. It proved he was a murder. And he did attack a superior officer. He went AWOL too. But none of those are terrorist acts. They're Court-Martial-able acts, but not terrorist acts. Curiously enough, nobody mentioned the bomb on the flight deck, the Spirit incident, or the transmission. That last one, admittedly, is fairly obvious since he killed McGuffin. But it's still not fully proven - how do we know that he didn't have an accomplice? For all they (meaning Angel & Co.) knew, he might have killed McGuffin as the result of a vendetta, and later on somebody just happened to sneak in and sent the data. Yes, I know that the above argument holds no water. So what's my point? Simple. While the pilots flying BW craft could automatically be assumed to be terrorists, Jazz was a Confed pilot. That means that without proof, he cannot be considered a traitor (otherwise, how would Blair have survived the 'Claw incident?). And the killing of a Confed pilot - even a murderer going AWOL - would have been illegal, methinks. I do not, by the way, mean that he had to get a fair trial. But they would've needed some evidence in order to execute him. Or does Martial Law give Confed the right to summarily execute anybody for no particular reason?

What was Confed's excuse for holding on to Martial Law for so long, btw?
 
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Confed had trouble letting go of the reigns.
As long as martial law exists, it can bolster military production-which is very profitable, they just have A LOT more power.
 
Quarto said:
Re: Angel quote. Fair enough. But it's still not fair of you to assume that everybody else has memorised the WC 4 novel. And without that quote (which you only provided later), it's a most credible assumption.
Click to expand...

It's unnecessary to assume anyone has memorized the novel. If LOAF says the WC4 novel shows it's okay to shoot someone, in the WC universe, it's okay to shoot somone. That's it.


I do not, by the way, mean that he had to get a fair trial. But they would've needed some evidence in order to execute him. Or does Martial Law give Confed the right to summarily execute anybody for no particular reason?
Click to expand...

Pretty much.

What was Confed's excuse for holding on to Martial Law for so long, btw?
Click to expand...

Because it didn't let go.
 
Well, it's time to play 'mortally offended by nothing'. Lets remind our viewers at home how we do that... we pick things that people will think 'offended' us and then whine like little girls instead of actually arguing about anything.

In a similar vein I find it incredibly ironic that you'd say something like "not only are you implying that I'm mentally impaired" and follow it up with a sob story about how I'm trying to explain the meaning of your own words.

I completely understand what you're *TRYING* to say. But, as I have now stated four times, you are *WRONG*. I'm not an idiot, I just don't agree with you. Accept that or fuck off, but don't dare think that I don't 'understand' you.

I did not 'assume' that anyone had memorized the Wing Commander 4 novel. I gave the specific location in the book for someone to find the quote. I do generally assume that anyone who wants to argue book versus game canon has copies of, or has at least read, the books. Stop sobbing, please.

Furthermore, I stated that Jazz did not need to confess. This was because he had *ALREADY* confessed. He wasn't a terrorist? He admitted to murdering Specialist McGruffin. We already knew that whoever did this had also broadcast a signal to the Kilrathi. TERRORIST. He admitted to killing Spirit by sabotaging her fighter. TERRORIST!!!!!!!!!! He tried to shoot down Blair's fighter. TERRORIST! (And *YES* battlefield law does allow a superior officer to order the execution of anyone under his command for *ANY* reason!)

Blair's trial was not for terrorism -- and it wasn't a war crimes trial. He was accused of tampering with his flight recorder, which they could not prove.

Another important note regarding your idiocy: the point of a war crimes trial is *NEVER* to determine guilt. It is a Public Relations show -- convicting someone of treason and executing them in public. Although military law would allow Tolwyn to execute Jazz whenever he wanted, this would *NOT* be the perfect solution you seem to assume it would be.

Incidentally, why don't you go and play WC2 again? It most definitely is a Sabre. As a matter of fact, you only have to take a look at the intro to SO2 to see that.

The Martial Law thing has to do with the entire Belisarus thing.

(Interesting Note: We're both wrong about the Sabre. Although a Sabre does pick up Jazz, the official guide states that it was Blair's! Angel may still have been back on the Concordia...)

------------------
Long live the Confederation,
Ben "Bandit" Lesnick
( loaf@wcnews.com - 302228)

The Wing Commander CIC

"You go, LOAF! Get some!" -JPG

Bombardez les Ptitard!
 
Chris: That's pretty sad. Essentially, you're saying that LOAF's always right because he's LOAF. I can't agree with that.

LOAF: Here we go again... so now I'm whining like a little girl, and sobbing too. Really.
Have you ever tried to imagine how your posts come through to people they're aimed at? I don't know about you, but I find it pretty insulting when somebody tells me that I am incapable of putting two simple concepts together. Maybe you didn't mean it as an insult, but it sure came across like one. I do not try to come up with imaginary insults, nor do I whinge and sob.

When you try to explain to me all about how Tolwyn had no way of influencing Blair out there, that's a pretty good indication that you didn't understand what I said. Because I wasn't talking about Tolwyn influencing Blair, but rather about what could've happened to Jazz after he was brought in. Even if you understood that, you completely ignored it and kept going on about how Tolwyn wasn't out there. You most definitely did not prove what I was actually saying wrong.

Oh, and I've just taken a look at the WC 2 text files. In fact, Jazz really doesn't confess anything. About all he does, was (barely) acknowledge that he stole Stingray's wings. All that other stuff - it's only admitted if you play on the losing path. But then, if you play on the losing path, Iceman goes down with the 'Claw
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. But...
(And *YES* battlefield law does allow a superior officer to order the execution of anyone under his command for *ANY* reason!)
Click to expand...
Fair enough. Now if only you had bothered to point that out right at the start, rather than going through all the other crap...

Blair's trial was not for terrorism -- and it wasn't a war crimes trial. He was accused of tampering with his flight recorder, which they could not prove.
Click to expand...
Funny... I distinctly recall his trial being about the destruction of the Tiger's Claw. The flight recorder was merely supposed to be evidence - and of course happened to be missing. But, if you say so...

Another important note regarding your idiocy
Click to expand...
And perhaps that's another imaginary insult? Yes, I guess it must be, since you don't actually say I'm an idiot, you merely imply it...

the point of a war crimes trial is *NEVER* to determine guilt. It is a Public Relations show -- convicting someone of treason and executing them in public. Although military law would allow Tolwyn to execute Jazz whenever he wanted, this would *NOT* be the perfect solution you seem to assume it would be.
Click to expand...
Firstly, you've got the wrong term. "War crimes trial" is not the same as "Court Martial". The first is what was done to the Nazis after WWII (and it certainly wasn't a PR show, since some were proven innocent), while the second is the one that happened to Jazz. This second one certainly isn't a PR show these days. It may be silly to base an argument on fiction, but nonetheless, to me movies like "A Few Good Men" (that was a Court-Martial, btw) seem to indicate that they're not about PR. Still, Confed is the real issue. I guess I kinda assumed that Confed was more democratic than anybody is right now - a fair assumption, since it's probably the only was our world could unite, except maybe by total war. Since I was obviously wrong, it doesn't matter.

Re: The Sabre. That figures, don't it
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? Here we are arguing, and then it turns out that we're both wrong
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. I guess Blair decided not to kill him after all.

Look, LOAF. I have a lot of respect for you and your knowledge of the WCU. But I like to discuss things that don't seem to be logical to me. I don't mind that you almost always prove me wrong. But please, try to be more diplomatic about it
smile.gif
. I guess I am oversensitive on that count, but I simply can't stand it when you imply that I'm an idiot or whatever. I'm not, ok? I've been around here long enough for you to have noticed that I actually do have a properly functioning brain, or I wouldn't be a mod
smile.gif
. So please, in the future, by all means, prove me wrong any time you like - I like learning. But don't say those little witticisms of yours, because they are offensive, even if you think they're not. That's the trouble - we don't see each other's face, nor do we hear the tone of each other's voice. It's way too easy for something to be taken the wrong way.

And please, don't act as though the canon is always right. We both know that there are mistakes out there - and it won't destroy the WCU if we acknowledge that. I'm not trying to offend you by proving you wrong, you know. I'm just trying to see what is right.

So, do you think we can actually have a normal discussion (next time, since we've just about discussed everything there is here)?

[This message has been edited by Quarto (edited February 26, 2000).]
 
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