Where did Bandit get the Vesuvius Specs?

[Concordia]

Originally posted by Madman

having read this post,i have to say theres a few minor points id like to make

1) does the vesuvius have an anti matter gun? i never read anything bout that (i havent read the novels) but i dont claim to be any expert here, so if perhaps someone could clear this up for me

Anti-matter guns are commonplace in Wing Commander 2 and above. Apparently they don't actually shoot anti-matter... It may be used in the mechanism though which enables it to bypass shields. That's LOAF's idea and it seems to fit the fact that it bypasses shields (Antimatter would most likely destroy the ship outright; the exception being if it only shot a tiny amount of anti-matter). The Vesuvius herself is fitted with 14 Anti-Matter Guns.

2) the vesuvius designed to take on a fleet?! now that simply cannot be true, the vesuvius is by its very design shape, just a bloody big victory! (sorry for the poor comparison but i hope u get what i mean) not even the midway is designed in that light, and it is supposed to run into sectors alone WHERE NECESSARY the vesuvius isnt

Not entire fleets. It however, can take on a CVBG. It does carry some torpedo capacity. Best estimate is 2 torpedo tubes. It fired at 2 in WC4. It may have more torpedo tubes sure, but all that's seen is 2. It also carries AMG's which are capable of penetrating phase-shields. 400 fighters is 10 times more than a Ranger-Class, over 4 times that of a Concordia-Class Fleet Carrier, nearly as 4 times as much as a Bengal-Class, over 3 times that of a Confederation Dreadnought, and more than even the Hakaga and Midway. The Vesuvius's Armor is rated at 4,000 centimeters durasteel equivalent. That's probably more than even the Hakaga (Hakaga's rated at 3,000 I believe), and it's shields can even repulse torpedoes sometimes. (In the final scenes should you not use the flashpack, you take vesuvius by firing torpedoes into the launch-bay simply because it's shields are practically nonexistant in that area and a torpedo hit will do something there.) It also has 16 Mass-Drivers and 24 laser-turrets as well to make things difficult should you avoid the anti-matter guns.

3) i may just have read your post wrong concordia, but where was the vesuvius chasing the intrepid? i dont remember this! intrepid chasing vesuvius, that you turned to later, is obvious,

This was in the Wing Commander Novel. There was a scene in the game though where Vesuvius was chasing Intrepid just before the TCS-St. Helens jumped in.

4) why is the vesuvius more manouverable than the intrepid, because its supposed to be (i hope i have my dates right here) nearing 30 years newer! plus the intrepid recieves a full on ass kicking by the lexington at the beginning!, it wudnt matter if the intrepid had fighter manouverability and speed, after what it goes through, im surprised it can even move, let alone race the vesuvius to earth!

Both your comments are dead-on. Vesuvius is much newer. The Durango's were obsolete 10 years earlier, back in '61 or '62. That would make them about 20, 30 or 40 years old. It's hard to tell in WC. They were old then though. Vesuvius would naturally have some improved maneuverability and technology to it.

Although the game limitations do list the Intrepid as capable of doing 5/5/5 DPS with damage.

5) is the behemoth bigger than the vesuvius? just a lil query that one

No. The Vesuvius is 1,600 meters long. The Behemoth is 11,000 meters long about.

6) the ratings changes between 3 and 4, can be explained by 2 things.

a) its a different game hence the system for rating in the engine might have changed?

Yeah, but having fighters with armor ratings nearing that of capships isn't so good. What point is there even in having capships if the fighters are nearly as tough? That tells me that those capships need to do some serious bulkin' up.

b) the war is over, guns and fighters are downgraded, so are the cap ships, for industrys sake its worth while shaving that 100cm of the side of the carrier, cos at the end of it u get a shitload of metal that can be melted down and sold.

Actually, the Talahassee, and the Sheffield-Class ships which served in WC3 were actually outdated ships from the mid-2630's. They were only serving because the older ships were destroyed or in too small numbers after the Battle of Terra. Most of these ships are old and refitted. The time to actually put a capship into dock, and yank off armor and stuff is insane. De-rating shields in a ship that could be on the front line with normal shields is nuts as well. Torpedoes are different in the fact that they get expended faster, and they could save the anti-matter. You'd have to do some serious overhaul to strip the armor off a capship.

7) jump points, tolwyn didnt need to race the intrepid, he was going to win anyway, thats stated in the game, he deliberately turns to fight the intrepid, so even if the intrepid can hit 150, the vesuvius if runnin at 150 is still in front of it! no gaining, and the intrepid WILL NOT have been running at 150, cos its been kicked all over the place, hence the vesuvius gains.

Actually, the Intrepid is capable of 150 with the damage. After all, the ship is always damaged in the game, and there's at least one time where I clocked intrepid at 144 kps. A 6 kps closure rate would take a long time to overtake assuming that was it's max speed. Over a minute just to overtake 400 kilometers. In the Novel, Vesuvius was overtaking Intrepid more quickly.

A 150 k/s destroyer would be very strange actually. Look at all the other destroyers. They're faster. The Sheffield which is from the mid-30's can do 200, the Exeter even, which is DESIGNED to carry fighters hauls in at 160, and the Gilgamesh did 250.

8) final point. the maximum speed is dictated by the scoops, with scoops closed the ships have NO maximum speed, science dictates this. its like modern rocket ships. the engines keep accelerating and the speed keeps rising. since the vesuvius was out of the jump point first, AND has bigger engines and thus more acceleration AND is undamaged and thus has better acceleration
as a result of course hes gaining on the intrepid HES GOIN FASTER!. as for the size of the wormhole, its like a rubber tube, mass and size dictate what can go through, i presume the hakaga style invention simply "shrinks" (for want of a better word) the ship, since i havent read that book, i dont know what its on about, so if someone could explain?

Actually the speed limit is the speed of light. Or until you run out of fuel.

While it was mentioned that it only took 9 minutes to go from Jupiter to L5. Confed HQ was around Jupiter in WC3 and WC4.

Additionally, I think the writers or the guys who showed the scenes in the game often forgot about the distances. The Tarawa, which was nearly as fast as the Gilgamesh, took 30 minutes to accelerate to 10,000 kps.

Also the Confederation Handbook does say that when a ship comes out of the jump it comes out at the same speed as it does before entry. Although it does appear to accelerate a bit on entry and decelerate a bit on exit, before the acceleration and after the deceleration, it's at the same speed.

The jump thing is more than that actually... The Hakaga device simply enabled a large ship to jump... period. The jump-drive normally had a 500 meter radius. The anti-graviton's decayed after that distance. Someone check "Confederation Handbook". The Hakaga devised technology which enabled them to work around this 500 meter radius. (500 meter radius = 1,000 meter diameter: no ship larger than 1,000 meters as a rule prior to the Hakaga).

The Vesuvius had this technology, and would not have been able to jump at all without it. Plus, why would the Vesuvius not be designed with it? After all, the Vesuvius was designed *based* on the Hakaga's design. Obviously cost wasn't a major concern, sporting a new armor, and 4,000 cm equivalent of it, a speed much faster than the Hakaga's, and pretty good maneuverability (even if the 6/6/6 figure is correct!).

p.s.
i know i may seem to be reading this all not as what the game shows, or as what the book shows, but as what wud happen in the real world, but put that down to me just being a lil strange

I think you're just trying to add more realism to it right?

-Concordia

 

[Concordia]

Originally posted by Madman
cheers guys re the info bout anti matter guns and the behemoth size, are the anti-matter guns, sivar style? ie similar to the concordias main weapon or different?

Actually, the Concordia's main gun is called the Phase Transit Cannon.

Anti-matter guns are not the same thing as those. Phase Transit cannons are only mounted on the Confederation-Class vessel, and perhaps some old WC Fanmade designs.

2ndly by designed to go in on its own, i didnt mean the midway taking entire battlegroups on on its own either, but its a lot more "all in one" based than the vesuvius, the fact is that in a close combat situation, the vesuvius would be downed long before the midway would were it a 1 ship v battlegroup, at range, using fighters, the vesuvius does have a hell of a lot of firepower, but in cap-ship battles, it really does need a few destoryers dont it!, i wish i had the books so i knew about that chasing and also the hakaga stuff!

The Midway is more independant than the Vesuvius.

finally re the hakaga system, thanks, i guess thats a wc mystery then. and of course there has to be SOME maximum speed, due to the things you named, i didnt expect anyone to stress that but since u did, yeah i know that there are 3 real limits to its speed, limit with scoops, limit of structure and of course, speed of light, although wc's ftl stuff does kinda blow the last outta the water!

Actually that's just because in the cutscenes it would take too long to show it travelling across the whole system

And in the novels, it was probably because the authors weren't paying any attention to distance.

as for jump speeds, i always assumed the jump speed to be a simple matter of calculating the exact trajectory, the faster your going, the less time you have, the less accurate you are, that also fits the pilgrim line in quite nicely dont you think?

Well yeah. If you're not lined up, you can come out in some wierd place, you may come out in pieces, or even as a huge ball of fire, also you may never come out.

anyway, thanks for listenin to my thoughts, and helping with my flawed knowlege

-Concordia

 

[Wedge009]

I'm very impressed with this lengthy discussion, minus the quips about "LOAF vs newbie" and "why the long posts?" Seems we haven't had a serious discussion purely on WC stuff for quite some time.

Originally posted by Haesslich
...in WC2, we lose the escort William Tell through a similarly risky high-speed transit.

I always thought they were destroyed by Kilrathi. There wasn't much detail about how the William Tell was destroyed in its jump, so I guess that's a reasonable conclusion.

 

[Raptor]

Originally posted by Madman
why is the vesuvius more manouverable than the intrepid, because its supposed to be (i hope i have my dates right here) nearing 30 years newer! plus the intrepid recieves a full on ass kicking by the lexington at the beginning!, it wudnt matter if the intrepid had fighter manouverability and speed, after what it goes through, im surprised it can even move, let alone race the vesuvius to earth!

Actcually, the Intrepied was damaged *before* the engagement with the Lexington. Paulsen was pretty incompetent, and only managed to get his own ship disabled, not damage the Intrepid. The best I can figure, the Intrepid ran into a Confed frigate that was being protected by a couple of cruisers (based on the game comment "We ran into a Confed frigate and her escorts", and the novel description of her fighting the cruisers Achilles and Dornier.)The battle resulted into the Intrepid losing her top decks and some of her reactors, and the destruction of the Achilles.

As for being able to move and fight after the damage, the Durango class were wartime destroyers, (which unlike carriers are expected to get close to other ships) so being able to fight even after recieving heavy damage was probably part of the design.

Best, Raptor

 

[Haesslich]

Originally posted by Wedge009
I'm very impressed with this lengthy discussion, minus the quips about "LOAF vs newbie" and "why the long posts?" Seems we haven't had a serious discussion purely on WC stuff for quite some time.

I always thought they were destroyed by Kilrathi. There wasn't much detail about how the William Tell was destroyed in its jump, so I guess that's a reasonable conclusion.

The official WC1 and WC2 guide (also the source of 'LaFong' as the player's name) states that the Tell was destroyed in a high-speed jump transit attempt, the same one that the Concordia was pulling in one of the missions on the losing tree, IIRC.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Anti-matter guns are not the same thing as those. Phase Transit cannons are only mounted on the Confederation-Class vessel, and perhaps some old WC Fanmade designs.

I think all the pre-Tech Bureau Aces fighters all mounted PTCs.

(Erm, but of course the Sivar from SM1 had a PTC...)

The Midway is more independant than the Vesuvius.

Only during peacetime -- during a war, Midway is designed (just like Vesuvius or any other fleet carrier) to act as the center of a battlegroup.

Actually that's just because in the cutscenes it would take too long to show it travelling across the whole system

And in the novels, it was probably because the authors weren't paying any attention to distance.

Except that it seems to be the rule rather than the *exception* to the rule. Without some manner of travelling faster than light, it could take years to cross a single star system.

Anti-matter guns are commonplace in Wing Commander 2 and above. Apparently they don't actually shoot anti-matter... It may be used in the mechanism though which enables it to bypass shields. That's LOAF's idea and it seems to fit the fact that it bypasses shields (Antimatter would most likely destroy the ship outright; the exception being if it only shot a tiny amount of anti-matter). The Vesuvius herself is fitted with 14 Anti-Matter Guns.

It might not even use antimatter at all. It might just be a gun that destroys Matter.

Both your comments are dead-on. Vesuvius is much newer. The Durango's were obsolete 10 years earlier, back in '61 or '62. That would make them about 20, 30 or 40 years old. It's hard to tell in WC. They were old then though. Vesuvius would naturally have some improved maneuverability and technology to it.

Ten years before WC4 would br '63 (G)

Actually, the Talahassee, and the Sheffield-Class ships which served in WC3 were actually outdated ships from the mid-2630's.

There's no "Sheffield class".

While it was mentioned that it only took 9 minutes to go from Jupiter to L5. Confed HQ was around Jupiter in WC3 and WC4.

Just like seeing a destroyer named Sheffield doesn't mean that there's a Sheffield class destroyer, seeing a gas giant doesn't mean that you're looking at Jupiter.

The base in the intro to WC3 is at Torgo. The base in the intro to WC4 is at L5. The only Confed base that's actually in Jupiter orbit is the one from WCP. (Heck, the WC4 intro should be proof enough that the base you see isn't at Jupiter -- since the shuttle passes Saturn, Jupiter and Mars before arriving there...)

The jump thing is more than that actually... The Hakaga device simply enabled a large ship to jump... period. The jump-drive normally had a 500 meter radius. The anti-graviton's decayed after that distance. Someone check "Confederation Handbook". The Hakaga devised technology which enabled them to work around this 500 meter radius. (500 meter radius = 1,000 meter diameter: no ship larger than 1,000 meters as a rule prior to the Hakaga).

There are clearly both other limits (FA mentions a mass limit) and multiple sizes of jump points (WC4 mentions this).

The Vesuvius had this technology, and would not have been able to jump at all without it. Plus, why would the Vesuvius not be designed with it? After all, the Vesuvius was designed *based* on the Hakaga's design. Obviously cost wasn't a major concern, sporting a new armor, and 4,000 cm equivalent of it, a speed much faster than the Hakaga's, and pretty good maneuverability (even if the 6/6/6 figure is correct!).

Being 'based' on the Hakaga doesn't mean Confed had the ability to copy the Hakaga.

 

[Concordia]

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF


I think all the pre-Tech Bureau Aces fighters all mounted PTCs.

(Erm, but of course the Sivar from SM1 had a PTC...)

pre-Tech Bureau?

And yes, the Sivar. I forgot to include that one. Whoops!

Only during peacetime -- during a war, Midway is designed (just like Vesuvius or any other fleet carrier) to act as the center of a battlegroup.

In wartime, I'd say both have their advantages, but I'd rather command a Vesuvius because of it's greater speed, fighter-capacity, firepower and maneuverability.

Except that it seems to be the rule rather than the *exception* to the rule. Without some manner of travelling faster than light, it could take years to cross a single star system.

Nope, if you're doing half the speed of light it shouldn't take more than a few hours.

And from apparent evidence, the jump points do seem to be within the inner parts of the system being they're affected by gravity (remember WC the Movie when the enemy fleet came out. They came out near Venus!)

It might not even use antimatter at all. It might just be a gun that destroys Matter.

Annihilating matter would be just as bad as M/AM hit. I think your anti-matter in the mechanism to bypass shield thing worked.

Ten years before WC4 would br '63 (G)

Yeah, but the Kilrathi war ended in '69. In WC4 Novel it specifically said that it was almost 2 years since the war ended. That would be either '71 or '72. In either case, the Durango's were obsolete in that time. They probably served for awhile before that.

There's no "Sheffield class".

I know, but Coventry was supposedly a newer ship in the Novel, and Sheffield is the only other ship in the class that has a name listed to it. Give me another name for it, and I'll call it by the correct name.

Just like seeing a destroyer named Sheffield doesn't mean that there's a Sheffield class destroyer, seeing a gas giant doesn't mean that you're looking at Jupiter.

True, but the gas giant looks just like Jupiter, it's in the Solar System, and there's only one planet that LOOKS like Jupiter in the Solar System.

The base in the intro to WC3 is at Torgo. The base in the intro to WC4 is at L5. The only Confed base that's actually in Jupiter orbit is the one from WCP. (Heck, the WC4 intro should be proof enough that the base you see isn't at Jupiter -- since the shuttle passes Saturn, Jupiter and Mars before arriving there...)

Actually if the Jump point was at Saturn, they would follow a track inbound taking them towards jupiter. And I don't ever recall them passing mars. Maybe that was one of Jupiter's moons. There's Io, Europa, Ganymede and Callisto. Also Saturn has a moon named Titan which is reddish as well.

There are clearly both other limits (FA mentions a mass limit) and multiple sizes of jump points (WC4 mentions this).

Then why did you accuse me of making stuff up!?

Additionally, Fleet action not only establishes a mass limit, but a size limit as well.

Let me quote the passage (I wanted to make sure I had the important specs about the Hakaga right at grab when I needed it).

Page 10: Fleet Action (Top paragraph)

[TT]"Here, for the last five years, a new class of carriers has been tested and developed, overcoming the difficulties of translight jumping of ships above a certain size and mass. These new carriers, what we call the Hakaga class, are capable of carrying and servicing our newest Vatari-class fighters to be launched next year. With their increased size the carriers have shield generation systems capable of repulsing nearly any weapon the Confederation now has, including their Mark IV & V antimatter torpedoes."[/TT]

Being 'based' on the Hakaga doesn't mean Confed had the ability to copy the Hakaga.

Actually, Confed technology is largely superior to Kilrathi technology, plus the ability to jump large ships was already developed by Confed. Think Project Behemoth.

-Concordia

 

[t.c.cgi]

Originally posted by Concordia
Actually, Confed technology is largely superior to Kilrathi technology, plus the ability to jump large ships was already developed by Confed. Think Project Behemoth.

-Concordia

Superior? Mabey *after* the war, but as I recall the Kilrathi were the first to develop the PTC, cloak, and a few other nifty trinkets. However, if you meant in general quality, yeah I'd have to agree. Not many Kilrathi light fighters can take on 10 waves of enemy heavies and a pair of corvettes!

 

[Bandit LOAF]

pre-Tech Bureau?

A joke. Before they had a group of people to 'approve' new technology, the Aces Club was plauged by 'super-fighters' armed with PTCs and CSMs and such.

Nope, if you're doing half the speed of light it shouldn't take more than a few hours.

And from apparent evidence, the jump points do seem to be within the inner parts of the system being they're affected by gravity (remember WC the Movie when the enemy fleet came out. They came out near Venus!)

A light year is about 6,000,000,000 miles... Pluto is almost 4,000,000,000 miles from the sun. It'd take several months to go from Pluto to Earth just travelling at the speed of light, wouldn't it?

The jump points are clearly *not* always near the inner planets -- we know that the Confed fleet arrived home in the movie near Neptune, and we see Maniac and Blair pass several of the outer planets on their way to L5 in the WC4 intro. There are jump points *throughout* the solar system.

I know, but Coventry was supposedly a newer ship in the Novel, and Sheffield is the only other ship in the class that has a name listed to it. Give me another name for it, and I'll call it by the correct name.

'WC3 Destroyer' or 'Sheffield-type' work well.

True, but the gas giant looks just like Jupiter, it's in the Solar System, and there's only one planet that LOOKS like Jupiter in the Solar System.

Except you've *assumed* an incorrect fact -- it's *not* in the Sol System... it's in the Torgo System.

Actually if the Jump point was at Saturn, they would follow a track inbound taking them towards jupiter. And I don't ever recall them passing mars. Maybe that was one of Jupiter's moons. There's Io, Europa, Ganymede and Callisto. Also Saturn has a moon named Titan which is reddish as well.

They pass Mars -- but that's not important. L5 is a real point which is near Earth.

Then why did you accuse me of making stuff up!?

Additionally, Fleet action not only establishes a mass limit, but a size limit as well.

Let me quote the passage (I wanted to make sure I had the important specs about the Hakaga right at grab when I needed it).

Page 10: Fleet Action (Top paragraph)

[TT]"Here, for the last five years, a new class of carriers has been tested and developed, overcoming the difficulties of translight jumping of ships above a certain size and mass. These new carriers, what we call the Hakaga class, are capable of carrying and servicing our newest Vatari-class fighters to be launched next year. With their increased size the carriers have shield generation systems capable of repulsing nearly any weapon the Confederation now has, including their Mark IV & V antimatter torpedoes."[/TT]

I accused you of making things up because you were *making things up*. You told *me* I was wrong that there was a mass and size limit and went on the spout something you'd made up about tubes.

Actually, Confed technology is largely superior to Kilrathi technology, plus the ability to jump large ships was already developed by Confed. Think Project Behemoth.

You're not following. We know the Vesuvius is limited to large jump points because they say so in WCIV. Presumably the Behemoth has the same limitation.

 

[junior]

Originally posted by t.c.cgi


Superior? Mabey *after* the war, but as I recall the Kilrathi were the first to develop the PTC, cloak, and a few other nifty trinkets.

Does the thing on the Sivar get the title 'Phase Transit Cannon'? I know that the Confederation-class carries a similar weapon, but its a heavily refined and/or redesigned weapon, as the original weapon on the Sivar was only useful for bombardment of huge, stationary targets (i.e. planetary surfaces).

 

[LaFong]

Yes, and i bagged the name a long time ago

Dont get much time to post though

 

[WildWeasel]

Well, that was fairly random.

 

[Madman]

oops, i got the ptc and the anti-matter guns mixed up

just out of interest, id LOVE to hear how u can destroy matter with an anti-matter gun, without actually using anti-matter?

since to destroy matter, ie disintegrate it, you do need anti-matter

additionally, i was under the impression that the concordia was the ONLY confederation class ship to feature a ptc?

regarding confed tech being better than kat, the kats owned more territory, and were winning the war slowly but surely, we had are backs against the wall, they were free to research, they had better tech throughout really with the ptc and hakaga being the ultimate proofs

 

[junior]

Originally posted by Madman
additionally, i was under the impression that the concordia was the ONLY confederation class ship to feature a ptc?

regarding confed tech being better than kat, the kats owned more territory, and were winning the war slowly but surely, we had are backs against the wall, they were free to research, they had better tech throughout really with the ptc and hakaga being the ultimate proofs

I don't know that's ever stated, so afaik, there's no reason to believe that other Confederation class ships didn't have a PTC as well. IIRC, the ship is wrapped around the gun, so it would be rather difficult to build a Confederation class that didn't carry a PTC.

The cats and Confed had different areas where each was superior, so I hesitate to ever say that one or the other was flat out more technologically advanced than the other. I think the Jane's guide from WC2 lists one or two areas where Confed was the first to have a particular tech that the cats then copied, although I could be mistaken.
And even in the case of the Sivar's weapon, while the Kilrathi stuck the thing on the Sivar to begin with, it was Confed that refined it to the point where it could be used against anything smaller than a colony (it even gets used against fighters, although that's of questionable realism, imho).

 

[Wedge009]

Originally posted by Haesslich
The official WC1 and WC2 guide (also the source of 'LaFong' as the player's name) states that the Tell was destroyed in a high-speed jump transit attempt, the same one that the Concordia was pulling in one of the missions on the losing tree, IIRC.

Okay, thanks. But the Concordia double-jumps in a mission series which everyone sees regardless of whether they came from the winning or losing track.

 

[Concordia]

Originally posted by Wedge009
Okay, thanks. But the Concordia double-jumps in a mission series which everyone sees regardless of whether they came from the winning or losing track.

Does the William Tell get destroyed in that mission too?

Damn that was a cool name. Gotta give credit to a guy who could shoot an apple off a guy's head with a bow and not hit him.

Originally posted by junior


I don't know that's ever stated, so afaik, there's no reason to believe that other Confederation class ships didn't have a PTC as well. IIRC, the ship is wrapped around the gun, so it would be rather difficult to build a Confederation class that didn't carry a PTC.

The PTC actually forms the ships keel. All of the Dreadnoughts in that class had those guns. They didn't use them at all (with the exception of Concordia) after 2665 because of a problem with the gun. Something about it being prone to blowing up if the power levels are too low.

I do have a question though... is the PTC fixed (can the gun be rotated), or is it a big monster turret, or can the barrel be pivoted. The Hades for example has a giant plasma gun on it's keel.

The cats and Confed had different areas where each was superior, so I hesitate to ever say that one or the other was flat out more technologically advanced than the other. I think the Jane's guide from WC2 lists one or two areas where Confed was the first to have a particular tech that the cats then copied, although I could be mistaken.
And even in the case of the Sivar's weapon, while the Kilrathi stuck the thing on the Sivar to begin with, it was Confed that refined it to the point where it could be used against anything smaller than a colony (it even gets used against fighters, although that's of questionable realism, imho).

Is there anything to say that the Sivar's main gun is the same thing as the PTC? It was mentioned that it was captured of a Kilrathi Dreadnought; but that may not have been the ONLY Kilrathi-Dreadnought in existance (maybe there was a different class that was also a dreadnought).

The Kilrathi weapon was called a Proton Superaccelerator, it was also referred to as a Graviton Gun. In both cases, the gun did bypass the shields of the planet... but the damage was not caused predominantly by the impact. In fact the impact produced a small explosion followed by the planet's gravitational field going up 137 fold. Everything just got crushed.

And when did the PTC hit a fighter?

Originally posted by Madman
oops, i got the ptc and the anti-matter guns mixed up

just out of interest, id LOVE to hear how u can destroy matter with an anti-matter gun, without actually using anti-matter?

That was conjecture by Bandit.

My guess is that the guns USE anti-matter to produce the reaction which makes the beam, which is shot out. Much in the same way that Fission guns don't shoot fissioning stuff, they use a fission reaction to produce the energy which makes the beam (on the Dragon fighter for example).

since to destroy matter, ie disintegrate it, you do need anti-matter

The only way it could work is if you some how made the energy able to flip the charges of some of the matter on the hull of the ship to antimatter, thus causing it to react with the rest of the hull. That's my take. But that's just a guess.

additionally, i was under the impression that the concordia was the ONLY confederation class ship to feature a ptc?

It specifically said that the weapon formed the keel of the Confederation Class Dreadnought. That would include all ships of that class. Since it forms the keel of the ship, if you took it out, you'd have to put something else in it's place... I doubt an Aces-member's idea of putting a foosball table in it's place would actually work

regarding confed tech being better than kat, the kats owned more territory, and were winning the war slowly but surely, we had are backs against the wall, they were free to research, they had better tech throughout really with the ptc and hakaga being the ultimate proofs

Yes, but necessity is the mother of all invention. Although you are right. The Cloaking device was a huge edge the Kilrathi had. But the Hakaga was not necessarily so. If the Behemoth was under development for 10 years, that would have begun in '59. They probably wouldn't have even begun designing something that couldn't have gotten around the jump-size problem. If they couldnt' jump it; it'd be pointless. Otherwise you might as well just build a big-ass station with a gun on it.

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF


A joke. Before they had a group of people to 'approve' new technology, the Aces Club was plauged by 'super-fighters' armed with PTCs and CSMs and such.

Okay, I understand.

A light year is about 6,000,000,000 miles... Pluto is almost 4,000,000,000 miles from the sun. It'd take several months to go from Pluto to Earth just travelling at the speed of light, wouldn't it?

Nah.. The speed of light is 186,282 miles a second. Times that by 60 and you got 11,176,920 miles. That's how far it went in a minute. Times 60 is 670615200 miles. That's light in an hour. Times 24 = 16,094,764,800 miles. Now multiply this by 365.25 (a year) and you'll end up with 5,878,612,843,200. You're off by 3 places there LOAF.

5,878,612,843,200 (1 LY) Pluto is = 3,682,600,000. At the speed of light it would take approximately 19,769 seconds to go from Sol to Pluto. Earth is closer to pluto usually the sun. For this reason the distance can be shortened by around 92,557,000 miles. Either way 19,769 seconds is about 5.4914 hours. Now at half the speed of light would take a bit under 11 hours, and at an eighth 22 hours, and at a 16th, 44 hours (often in WC the system crossings are often about 2 days).

The jump points are clearly *not* always near the inner planets -- we know that the Confed fleet arrived home in the movie near Neptune, and we see Maniac and Blair pass several of the outer planets on their way to L5 in the WC4 intro. There are jump points *throughout* the solar system.

Usually being the key word. Not all star systems have gas-giants though. Gas-giants are massive and they'll naturally attract the jump-points.

'WC3 Destroyer' or 'Sheffield-type' work well.

Okay

Except you've *assumed* an incorrect fact -- it's *not* in the Sol System... it's in the Torgo System.

When does it say Torgo System? I would have sworn it said Confed HQ which is in the Sol System. In the WC3 Novel, Blair rendezvous with the Victory in the Torgo System. But not the base.

They pass Mars -- but that's not important. L5 is a real point which is near Earth.

That's in the novel. In the game, they are at Jupiter.

I accused you of making things up because you were *making things up*. You told *me* I was wrong that there was a mass and size limit and went on the spout something you'd made up about tubes.

The torpedo tube thing was not the same issue. The jump-point thing I was actually right on and you THEN accused me of making it up.

You're not following. We know the Vesuvius is limited to large jump points because they say so in WCIV. Presumably the Behemoth has the same limitation.

Yeah, the Hakaga probably would have been too. They were simply able to jump their mass across, they had size limitations though. The Midway only incorporated that tech in like 13 years later LOL. The Behemoth of COURSE had the same technological limitations. The lucky fact is that both Kilrathi inner world's have large jumppoints, and so does our Inner Worlds.

-Concordia

 

[WildWeasel]

Originally posted by Concordia
I do have a question though... is the PTC fixed (can the gun be rotated), or is it a big monster turret, or can the barrel be pivoted. The Hades for example has a giant plasma gun on it's keel.

I'm pretty sure that it's a fixed weapon. The Hades-class is an entirely different animal.

Is there anything to say that the Sivar's main gun is the same thing as the PTC? It was mentioned that it was captured of a Kilrathi Dreadnought; but that may not have been the ONLY Kilrathi-Dreadnought in existance (maybe there was a different class that was also a dreadnought).

It's a refinement of the same weapon that destroyed Goddard.

And when did the PTC hit a fighter?

When you accidentally get in the Concordia's way.

 

[Wedge009]

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
...the Sivar from SM1 had a PTC...

I thought you said it was a Proton Accelerator gun or something, or is that just SWC or the SNES SM1?

Originally posted by Concordia
I know, but Coventry was supposedly a newer ship in the Novel, and Sheffield is the only other ship in the class that has a name listed to it. Give me another name for it, and I'll call it by the correct name.

Unfortunately, we don't have a 'correct' class name for the WC3/4 destroyer.

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
A light year is about 6,000,000,000 miles... Pluto is almost 4,000,000,000 miles from the sun. It'd take several months to go from Pluto to Earth just travelling at the speed of light, wouldn't it?

Don't know where you go those figures from, but Earth is about 8.3 light-minutes from the sun, Pluto is 332.1 light-minutes = about five and a half light-hours. Of course, you're not going to travel at the speed of light, but a day's travel from the edge of a system to it's inner planets isn't too bad, is it? Aren't intra-system jumps possible in the WCU, or P2, at least?

Originally posted by Madman
Just out of interest, I'd LOVE to hear how u can destroy matter with an anti-matter gun, without actually using anti-matter?

Since to destroy matter, ie disintegrate it, you do need anti-matter

You don't need anti-matter just to disintegrate something, but I know what you mean. Here's what's mind-boggling - if anti-matter coming into contact with matter completely disappears from existence, how do they keep the anti-matter? Of course, the same thing happens with M/AM power-plants - I assume the AM is not stored, just somehow generated when needed.

Originally posted by Madman
Additionally, I was under the impression that the Concordia was the ONLY Confederation class ship to feature a PTC?

AFAIK, all Confederation-class dreadnoughts had a PTC - they formed the keel of the ship. A ship without a keel, well...

(Bah, Connie beat me to it. )

Originally posted by Concordia
Does the William Tell get destroyed in that mission too?

Previous one, I guess. It's in the briefing here.

Originally posted by Concordia
Gotta give credit to a guy who could shoot an apple off a guy's head with a bow and not hit him.

I thought he was aiming for the head.

Originally posted by WildWeasel
I'm pretty sure that it's a fixed weapon. The Hades-class is an entirely different animal.

It's definitely a fixed weapon - the Concordia has to spend valuable seconds manoeuvring into position to line up for a shot, this is most obvious when defending the Concordia against two capships.

Originally posted by WildWeasel
When you accidentally get in the Concordia's way.

Y'know, I've gone out of my way to try to get hit by the PTC... I still haven't managed it.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I thought you said it was a Proton Accelerator gun or something, or is that just SWC or the SNES SM1?

That's what the Kilrathi called it. Confed salvaged the Sivar and developed it into the Confed class' main gun.

Don't know where you go those figures from, but Earth is about 8.3 light-minutes from the sun, Pluto is 332.1 light-minutes = about five and a half light-hours. Of course, you're not going to travel at the speed of light, but a day's travel from the edge of a system to it's inner planets isn't too bad, is it? Aren't intra-system jumps possible in the WCU, or P2, at least?

Possible but not common (they're an odd anomaly in SM2, and they're certainly not used ina ny of the earlier cited system crossings).

You don't need anti-matter just to disintegrate something, but I know what you mean. Here's what's mind-boggling - if anti-matter coming into contact with matter completely disappears from existence, how do they keep the anti-matter? Of course, the same thing happens with M/AM power-plants - I assume the AM is not stored, just somehow generated when needed.

Nor does the term 'anti' mean 'to desintigrate'. An anti-tank cannon doesn't disintigrate tanks...

I do have a question though... is the PTC fixed (can the gun be rotated), or is it a big monster turret, or can the barrel be pivoted. The Hades for example has a giant plasma gun on it's keel.

Fixed. For someone who's been ranting about the innards of the Confederation class, you don't really seem to be particularly familiar with the ship...

Is there anything to say that the Sivar's main gun is the same thing as the PTC? It was mentioned that it was captured of a Kilrathi Dreadnought; but that may not have been the ONLY Kilrathi-Dreadnought in existance (maybe there was a different class that was also a dreadnought).

The Kilrathi weapon was called a Proton Superaccelerator, it was also referred to as a Graviton Gun. In both cases, the gun did bypass the shields of the planet... but the damage was not caused predominantly by the impact. In fact the impact produced a small explosion followed by the planet's gravitational field going up 137 fold. Everything just got crushed.

Proton Accelerator Gun. The WC2 Joan's update confirms that it's the same weapon as used by the Confed class.

That was conjecture by Bandit.

My guess is that the guns USE anti-matter to produce the reaction which makes the beam, which is shot out. Much in the same way that Fission guns don't shoot fissioning stuff, they use a fission reaction to produce the energy which makes the beam (on the Dragon fighter for example).

To the best of my knowledge those were *both* my theories...

Yes, but necessity is the mother of all invention. Although you are right. The Cloaking device was a huge edge the Kilrathi had. But the Hakaga was not necessarily so. If the Behemoth was under development for 10 years, that would have begun in '59. They probably wouldn't have even begun designing something that couldn't have gotten around the jump-size problem. If they couldnt' jump it; it'd be pointless. Otherwise you might as well just build a big-ass station with a gun on it.

Groan. It would be nice does not equal it is. I'm sure Confed would like to have ships that can jump with no limits at *any* point in their history... but they *don't*. We see that in Wing 4.

5,878,612,843,200 (1 LY) Pluto is = 3,682,600,000. At the speed of light it would take approximately 19,769 seconds to go from Sol to Pluto. Earth is closer to pluto usually the sun. For this reason the distance can be shortened by around 92,557,000 miles. Either way 19,769 seconds is about 5.4914 hours. Now at half the speed of light would take a bit under 11 hours, and at an eighth 22 hours, and at a 16th, 44 hours (often in WC the system crossings are often about 2 days).

Once again, you've *made up your own fact* to support your belief. We've seen ships and fleets in WC cross multiple systems or entire sectors in a few hours -- not days. And we've *seen* ships cross huge in-system distances in minutes... it's even been necessary to the plot at some points.

Usually being the key word. Not all star systems have gas-giants though. Gas-giants are massive and they'll naturally attract the jump-points.

What are you talking about? This reply makes no sense as a followup to "The jump points are clearly *not* always near the inner planets -- we know that the Confed fleet arrived home in the movie near Neptune, and we see Maniac and Blair pass several of the outer planets on their way to L5 in the WC4 intro. There are jump points *throughout* the solar system."

I mean, I didn't even say 'usually'.

(Furthermore, I seem to recall that there's a theory that any star system which can support life must have a gas giant...)

When does it say Torgo System? I would have sworn it said Confed HQ which is in the Sol System. In the WC3 Novel, Blair rendezvous with the Victory in the Torgo System. But not the base.

Except you've made up your facts again. The WCIII intro gives absolutely no indication of where it's taking place. The WC3 novel makes clear that Tolwyn's headquarters is in the Torgo System.

(And what could you possibly be mean by 'Confed HQ... is in the Sol System'? How would a war fought on hundreds of fronts simultaneously have a *single* headquarters? There's lots of nice bases in the Sol System... but the one in the WCIII intro isn't one of them).

That's in the novel. In the game, they are at Jupiter.

No, they're *not*. They pass Saturn, Jupiter, Mars and then arrive at L5. In the game.

Yeah, the Hakaga probably would have been too. They were simply able to jump their mass across, they had size limitations though. The Midway only incorporated that tech in like 13 years later LOL. The Behemoth of COURSE had the same technological limitations. The lucky fact is that both Kilrathi inner world's have large jumppoints, and so does our Inner Worlds.

All the homeworlds are better-explored than various outerworlds... leading to more jump points.

Regardless, this makes no sense. We're *told* that the Vesuvius is limited to what size jump points it can use. It therefore does *not* use the same technology as the Hakaga. There's absolutely no rule that says that if the Kilrathi have something, Confed *must*. This rule would make no sense in the face of the numerous things created by the Kilrathi first -- particle cannons, the phase transit cannon, torpedoes, cloaking devices, etc.

 

[LaFong]

"just out of interest, id LOVE to hear how u can destroy matter with an anti-matter gun, without actually using anti-matter?

since to destroy matter, ie disintegrate it, you do need anti-matter"

Well, ok:

destruction and disintegration are two different concepts,

Disintegrate:
"1. To become reduced to components, fragments, or particles.
2. To lose cohesion or unity
3. To decompose, decay, or undergo a nuclear transformation."

Destruction - presumably you mean a matter antimatter reaction where the two meet and the result is their conversion to energy. It is physically impossible to 'destroy matter' - you can however convert into some other form - usually energy.

You disintegrate matter with a large electropotential difference. Totally converting it to energy is a different proposition.

Also bear in mind that antimatter only annihilates its matter counterpart, so say for example you were using antihydrogen, you only have one antiproton and one positron per molecule of antihydrogen.