Tolwyn as a character

[Jdawg]

I think the point is that he was *always* crazy and that he lost perspective along the way. (Admittedly, this has more to do with how the actor played the role but) look at the blank stare on Tolwyn's face when he's caught out in front of the Confed assembly at the end of WC4. Its not a "Whoops! I'm caught!", its more of a "Wait, what...?"



LOAF should be able to answer that but I assume they were simply written past Roberts view.

I disagree I dont think he was crazy, he was a warrior, but the war and its toll on him, and being thrust as the main man in the fleet made him mad with power and crazy

 

[LeHah]

I disagree I dont think he was crazy, he was a warrior, but the war and its toll on him, and being thrust as the main man in the fleet made him mad with power and crazy

Maybe crazy is the wrong word for me to use. He was certainly a little "left of center". Perhaps its more of a sign of the storytelling than the character, but Tolwyn seemed to have a serious persecution complex - he tries to befriend Blair as a father-figure in the film and in a few year's time damns him to an assignment on Caernavon Station. He also seems to have an iffy, on-off friendship with Paladin at times (Did the Behemoth / Temblor Bomb projects put them at odds?)

And this only got worse after the Battle Of Earth. Tolwyn grew increasingly paranoid and (if you'll pardon the term) militant, to the point of creating an ever-enlargening "shadow military" conspiracy to prepare for an assumed forthcoming war. (Nephelim? Mantu? Take your pick.)

 

[Dundradal]

I think im getting false colors next, but after reading fleet action im shocked tolwyn didnt go crazy sooner, its a lot for one person to take. it does now paint a far clearer picture.

does anyone know why chris roberts didnt take more from the novels, like sub plots and characters ( for instance just adding kevin tolwyn to the games would have helped round out Geoff Tolwyns character to me)

I'd get them all and read in publishing order, to be honest. Action Stations, while being a prequel, is important.

If I'm remembering correctly, the novels were products off the games, not the other way around. They flesh out the universe beyond the games. The games are Roberts ideas, the books build from those into a larger universe.

I disagree I dont think he was crazy, he was a warrior, but the war and its toll on him, and being thrust as the main man in the fleet made him mad with power and crazy

No, there's a reason he acts like he does after the Battle of Terra. There are other forces at work that cause Tolwyn to take certain actions.

 

[Aginor]

I agree with Dundradal here, reading the books in the publishing order is probably the best way.

If I'm remembering correctly, the novels were products off the games, not the other way around.

Yes, that's also the way I remember it.

 

[Jdawg]

I agree with Dundradal here, reading the books in the publishing order is probably the best way.


Yes, that's also the way I remember it.

oh I know they are a product of games it just seems some of the stuff from the early novels might have made it into wc3 and wc4 to flesh out the characters more

 

[Jdawg]

Maybe crazy is the wrong word for me to use. He was certainly a little "left of center". Perhaps its more of a sign of the storytelling than the character, but Tolwyn seemed to have a serious persecution complex - he tries to befriend Blair as a father-figure in the film and in a few year's time damns him to an assignment on Caernavon Station. He also seems to have an iffy, on-off friendship with Paladin at times (Did the Behemoth / Temblor Bomb projects put them at odds?)

And this only got worse after the Battle Of Earth. Tolwyn grew increasingly paranoid and (if you'll pardon the term) militant, to the point of creating an ever-enlargening "shadow military" conspiracy to prepare for an assumed forthcoming war. (Nephelim? Mantu? Take your pick.)

he was most definetly paranoid, and in later yrs was chasing shadow figures as blair put it. But he didnt become paranoid for no reason, lets not forget that hobbes was a deep sleeper agent that betrayed tolwyn and confed and caused the destruction of his beloved behemoth project. Also in fleet action the kilrathi ambassador blew himself up along with the entire upper echalon of confed leaders including tolwyns mentor and personal hero, not to mention the president of confed's foreign ministry aide was also a spy and traitor bc the kilrathi had her son. So it is no surprise how paranoid he got in later yrs. to maintain power you have to be a little paranoid bc while most reports are just rumors others are true.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

One thing to remember about the whole ‘Tolwyn just went crazy’ take on the character is that he became involved in the Genetic Enhancement project in 2652. That’s nowhere near the same thing as concocting a plot to wipe out human worlds to improve the gene pool… but just the idea of genetically selecting the perfect warrior (even if only to fight the Kilrathi) is uncomfortable close to Hitler’s playbook.

As for reading order, I will echo the others and say you’ll be best rewarded doing them in order of publication. Characters introduced as early as Freedom Flight will make appearances in the later novels, and their impact is likely lessened without that background. Even the novelizations of Heart of the Tiger and The Price of Freedom are worthwhile in this respect; you’ll cheer when characters like Bear or Kevin Tolwyn show up on the peripheries in those stories.

By the by, Action Stations is not a proper prequel; unlike the other novels, it’s an in-universe document… a historical novel that’s set in 2634, but which was written in 2678 after the events of Wing Commander IV.

(And a further word of caution with regards to False Colors: it’s a thoroughly enjoyable book, but it’ll leave you with questions that are never answered. Andrew Keith saw it as the opening of a trilogy of novels that would finish off the stories of the novel characters and lead up to the events of Wing Commander IV… but unfortunately he passed away before writing those books.)

 

[Jdawg]

One thing to remember about the whole ‘Tolwyn just went crazy’ take on the character is that he became involved in the Genetic Enhancement project in 2652. That’s nowhere near the same thing as concocting a plot to wipe out human worlds to improve the gene pool… but just the idea of genetically selecting the perfect warrior (even if only to fight the Kilrathi) is uncomfortable close to Hitler’s playbook.

As for reading order, I will echo the others and say you’ll be best rewarded doing them in order of publication. Characters introduced as early as Freedom Flight will make appearances in the later novels, and their impact is likely lessened without that background. Even the novelizations of Heart of the Tiger and The Price of Freedom are worthwhile in this respect; you’ll cheer when characters like Bear or Kevin Tolwyn show up on the peripheries in those stories.

By the by, Action Stations is not a proper prequel; unlike the other novels, it’s an in-universe document… a historical novel that’s set in 2634, but which was written in 2678 after the events of Wing Commander IV.

(And a further word of caution with regards to False Colors: it’s a thoroughly enjoyable book, but it’ll leave you with questions that are never answered. Andrew Keith saw it as the opening of a trilogy of novels that would finish off the stories of the novel characters and lead up to the events of Wing Commander IV… but unfortunately he passed away before writing those books.)

I guess the reason I want to read false colors next is bc it was suppose to bridge the gap between wc3 and wc4 and like I have said before wc4 is my fav of the series, just had so man great threads and turns to the story. I let my best friend who is a huge mass effect fan watch the closing scene of wc4 and today he bought it on gog, even though he knows how it ends now.

the other reason is just bc I like the basic plot synopsis of rouge cats trying to get the war back on. its prob where tolwyn learned some tatics to keep the pot stirring in wc4.

as far as genetic enhancement programs, I have no problem with it as long as the participants are adult willing volunteers, (not orphans raised in it or forced enhancements). I really liked that kurt russel movie that dealt with it called solider I believe, and one of the best trilogy of all time had that front in center in the bourne movies.

 

[Jdawg]

also when referring to the genetics enhancement program as far as the game goes lets not act like it was only tolwyn who was a part of it or was its only creator. yes he illegally kept it going, but even paladin said something like "that program was shut down yrs ago" to tolwyn at the end, so at some pt other military and civilian leaders thought it was also necessary to tinker with humans to win the war.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

That's a very good point, but I've always thought that it speaks more to Paladin's less-than-heroic side than it does a standard acceptance of eugenics in the 27th century. (Which is a thread in and of itself...)

 

[Jdawg]

That's a very good point, but I've always thought that it speaks more to Paladin's less-than-heroic side than it does a standard acceptance of eugenics in the 27th century. (Which is a thread in and of itself...)

maybe but if it was a full program there were many people who knew about it, and I expect that some besides tolwyn still knew about it being in operation, maybe a couple of senators, could explain why even after all the information came out, something like 10 percent still voted to go to war with the border worlds lol.

 

[LeHah]

I guess the reason I want to read false colors next is bc it was suppose to bridge the gap between wc3 and wc4 and like I have said before wc4 is my fav of the series, just had so man great threads and turns to the story.

Though the story takes place between the two, its a very insulated plot - it takes place in a remote location and rarely moves outside of it. Aside from an opening chapter that deals with a meeting at Max / Hans Kruger's office, I don't remember anything taking place off the Karga (except some Kilrathi asides).

If WC4 is your favorite game, you'd likely really enjoy the book.

as far as genetic enhancement programs, I have no problem with it as long as the participants are adult willing volunteers, (not orphans raised in it or forced enhancements). I really liked that kurt russel movie that dealt with it called solider I believe, and one of the best trilogy of all time had that front in center in the bourne movies.

Did Bourne have to do with GE? I thought it had to do with simple training and that Touchstone / Blackbriar was about simple brainwashing and reprogramming? (I haven't read the books, mind you. I have three Ludlum books sitting next to me unopened as I type this).

maybe but if it was a full program there were many people who knew about it, and I expect that some besides tolwyn still knew about it being in operation, maybe a couple of senators, could explain why even after all the information came out, something like 10 percent still voted to go to war with the border worlds lol.

To quote Sansky "This is sterile conjecture"

But I do agree with your thought process. Its been a while since I've read the books but I remember it being implied that Tolwyn originally reported to someone else higher up? I could be messing up my conspiracies though (Belisarius Group?). I've no doubt someone outside of Tolwyn knew ... but that should prove how far-gone into crazyland he had gone: perpetuating a massive black ops group (involving an entire regiment? division? How many people does it take to run the BL space station AND man the TCS Vesuvius?) and conducting bioweapon experiments in an effort to demonize an outside populace that was innocent of hostilities.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Though the story takes place between the two, its a very insulated plot - it takes place in a remote location and rarely moves outside of it. Aside from an opening chapter that deals with a meeting at Max / Hans Kruger's office, I don't remember anything taking place off the Karga (except some Kilrathi asides).

I think you are misremembering this one; the book jumps back to Kruger's political problems, the Kilrathi plotting and Kevin's adventures on the Independence regularly! There’s a LOT on the Karga, but there’s a bunch of other scenes in there.

But I do agree with your thought process. Its been a while since I've read the books but I remember it being implied that Tolwyn originally reported to someone else higher up? I could be messing up my conspiracies though (Belisarius Group?). I've no doubt someone outside of Tolwyn knew ... but that should prove how far-gone into crazyland he had gone: perpetuating a massive black ops group (involving an entire regiment? division? How many people does it take to run the BL space station AND man the TCS Vesuvius?) and conducting bioweapon experiments in an effort to demonize an outside populace that was innocent of hostilities.

Marking this part of the reply as a spoiler, so as not to impact False Colors for jdawg (probably not necessary, but just in case!)

Spoiler

The revelation in False Colors was that Tolwyn was the ultimate mastermind behind these things. He had concocted the Belisarius Group (and lied directly to Jason about it) as a cover for what he was planning.

 

[Jdawg]

Though the story takes place between the two, its a very insulated plot - it takes place in a remote location and rarely moves outside of it. Aside from an opening chapter that deals with a meeting at Max / Hans Kruger's office, I don't remember anything taking place off the Karga (except some Kilrathi asides).

If WC4 is your favorite game, you'd likely really enjoy the book.



Did Bourne have to do with GE? I thought it had to do with simple training and that Touchstone / Blackbriar was about simple brainwashing and reprogramming? (I haven't read the books, mind you. I have three Ludlum books sitting next to me unopened as I type this).



To quote Sansky "This is sterile conjecture"

But I do agree with your thought process. Its been a while since I've read the books but I remember it being implied that Tolwyn originally reported to someone else higher up? I could be messing up my conspiracies though (Belisarius Group?). I've no doubt someone outside of Tolwyn knew ... but that should prove how far-gone into crazyland he had gone: perpetuating a massive black ops group (involving an entire regiment? division? How many people does it take to run the BL space station AND man the TCS Vesuvius?) and conducting bioweapon experiments in an effort to demonize an outside populace that was innocent of hostilities.

bourne had some light touches of enhancements, but you are right mostly brain washing, but in the same vein they are trying to create the perfect spy/solider just like in WC, but it was also just a way to bring up a set of movies that are underrated to me, when discussing best trilogies everyone always says star wars, usually the terminator or alien franchise, and some even say the matrix movies. its like folks forget about this series

 

[Jdawg]

also speaking of bourne if there was ever another wing commander movie or if the rumors of battlestar glactica coming to the bring screen are true I would love Paul Greengrass to direct them. he made bourne 2 and 3, and I loved what he did with captain phillips, I think that was the best movie of last yr.

 

[LeHah]

I think you are misremembering this one; the book jumps back to Kruger's political problems, the Kilrathi plotting and Kevin's adventures on the Independence regularly

False Colors was a book I was deeply disappointed in. Not to say that it was bad - but it certainly didn't move with the brisk pace of the other novels. Its the only WC novel I've read only once (despite owning, I think, three copies) and one of the only parts I remember is

Spoiler

when someone gives Kevin a house cat as a gift.

which doesn't say much for my opinion on the book ... or my memory!

also speaking of bourne if there was ever another wing commander movie or if the rumors of battlestar glactica coming to the bring screen are true I would love Paul Greengrass to direct them. he made bourne 2 and 3, and I loved what he did with captain phillips, I think that was the best movie of last yr.

(LOAF might be privy to more details but) I remember Chris Roberts having some preliminary ideas of what to do for a second Wing Commander film if the original was a hit - he wanted to do a sort of update/redo/redux on the WC2 storyline. I also remember he told me he wanted to try CGI for the Kilrathi if given the chance.

The Battlestar Galactica brand has some strange stuff going on. Despite the popularity of the reboot series, Bryan Singer (famous for the X-Men films) had been attached as developing a BSG film series for almost a decade and much more in-line with the original 70s TV series. However, that seems to have petered out in the last year or so.

 

[Jdawg]

False Colors was a book I was deeply disappointed in. Not to say that it was bad - but it certainly didn't move with the brisk pace of the other novels. Its the only WC novel I've read only once (despite owning, I think, three copies) and one of the only parts I remember is

Spoiler

when someone gives Kevin a house cat as a gift.

which doesn't say much for my opinion on the book ... or my memory!



(LOAF might be privy to more details but) I remember Chris Roberts having some preliminary ideas of what to do for a second Wing Commander film if the original was a hit - he wanted to do a sort of update/redo/redux on the WC2 storyline. I also remember he told me he wanted to try CGI for the Kilrathi if given the chance.

The Battlestar Galactica brand has some strange stuff going on. Despite the popularity of the reboot series, Bryan Singer (famous for the X-Men films) had been attached as developing a BSG film series for almost a decade and much more in-line with the original 70s TV series. However, that seems to have petered out in the last year or so.

I loved the reboot of battlestar for much of the same reasons I loved wing commander. I liked the characters, costumes ad great designs of both the fighters and warships

 

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(LOAF might be privy to more details but) I remember Chris Roberts having some preliminary ideas of what to do for a second Wing Commander film if the original was a hit - he wanted to do a sort of update/redo/redux on the WC2 storyline. I also remember he told me he wanted to try CGI for the Kilrathi if given the chance.

Shortly after the film came out, Chris Roberts made comments about how cutting the traitor subplot would let him do something like the WC2 story for the second film. I'm not sure he had actually cemented that as what he would chose for the films plot though.

he tries to befriend Blair as a father-figure in the film...

He certainly seems to be playing the mentor role... always amicable... Though I'm not sure that was actually the intent of his character in the movie. Earlier drafts make it more clear he's using Blair (and the Claw) like pawns... more than ready to sacrifice them. In fact there's a bit of an epilogue in... might have been the first draft where after the closing medal ceremony Tolwyn admits to Blair that he fully expected the Claw to be destroyed in the delaying action and basically setting up Blair's resentment for tolwyn. That particular scene didn't make it to the final draft but there's hints of it in the scenes shot...

There's a very brief scene that was shot that would have been right after Tolwyn contacts Blair on the diligent: https://www.wcnews.com/wcpedia/Wing_Commander_Movie_Shooting_Script#9H.09INT._CONCORDIA_-_BRIDGE

9H INT. CONCORDIA - BRIDGE
TOLWYN steps back from the monitor. BELLEGARDE stands behind him.

TOLWYN
You don't approve, Richard?

BELLEGARDE
Of using Blair's kid? No, sir, I do not.

Later in the movie, Bellegarde is again concerned about Blair's fighter being persued by the Snakier, and Tolwyn again is ready to let Blair die. Sure, that's the nature of command (a minor theme in the movie) but I'm not sure his friendship was anything less than self-serving.

 

[LeHah]

He certainly seems to be playing the mentor role... always amicable... Though I'm not sure that was actually the intent of his character in the movie.

Well intent is a strange thing. The final cut of the film is the "canon" plotline and the one upon which other stories would spin off of...

... but at the same time, reading between the lines, there is a lot to take into consideration. First off, you have David Warner playing the character instead of Malcolm McDowell, so whos to say what different "acting choices" the later would've made. But your points about cut scenes brings something to light I've never noticed: how Tolwyn in the movie treats Blair very fatherly face-to-face and then goes straight into dour "world on his shoulders" type of character - two extremes on an emotional spectrum. While its obvious with the characterizations from WC3 and 4 of where Tolwyn ended up, that little twist of mood is an interesting early indicator of his character later on.

 

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I guess it also depends on how much we weigh the novelization into this, which includes that scene on page 22 (as well as the pilgrim stuff). But the contrast is definitely interesting.