Tolwyn as a character

[Jdawg]

sorry I have been posting so much I hope im not bothering yall, but I just got more questions. As a character Tolwyn is one of my favorite characters in all of gaming. he has the one of the best arcs in a franchise, and I loved Mcdowell and the way he played him. Now to my question the Tolwyn in the games seems to be demanding, arrogant, brash, and always thinks he is right and never likes to be challenged, meanwhile so far in the book fleet action he seems to me to be a lot more soft spoken, humble and respectful, while I know the books will take liberties with characters and plus you have to flesh them out, I just want to know does anybody else feels like its two different characters.

also from the games its obvious Tolwyn has a pure disdain for blair, but in the book he is good friends with Jason who has character traits almost identical to blair, does anybody else find this odd and strange. it might just be because Tolwyn always thought blair let him down with important missions

 

[Ijuin]

Tolwyn dislikes Blair for at least two reasons. First, he believed that it was Blair's incompetence that caused the loss of the Tiger's Claw--the attack came from the side that Blair was patrolling, and Blair's explanation was unbelievable (Kilrathi stealth fighters that had no other evidence besides Blair's own words--nobody else had seen them and Blair didn't even have a video image from his flight recorder), so naturally Tolwyn concluded that Blair was making up a story to cover his own backside. The second reason was that Blair was prone to disobey orders and go off on his own--note how he went to attack K'Tithrak Mang solo though ordered to patrol the Concordia's flanks instead. And yet despite Blair's disobedience, Blair somehow managed to save the day and come out looking like the big hero, which must be incredibly galling to a by-the-book Admiral who believes strongly in the chain of command.

The Tolwyn seen from the start of Wing Commander 2 until the end of Fleet Action has also not yet undergone two crushing defeats that would shape his later appearances in Wing Commander 3 and 4. First, the Kilrathi attack on the core worlds (including Sol System), which Confed was unable to stop, resulting in several heavily populated worlds including Earth being subject to multiple nuclear strikes each (well over a billion humans killed altogether). This made Tolwyn desperate to win the war by any means possible, honorable or not, and led to him pouring everything into Project Behemoth. When the Behemoth is destroyed, it is only Blair's daring fighter strike with the Temblor Bomb that is able to end the war--not only had Tolwyn's trump card failed, but Blair had once again stolen his glory.

 

[Jdawg]

Tolwyn dislikes Blair for at least two reasons. First, he believed that it was Blair's incompetence that caused the loss of the Tiger's Claw--the attack came from the side that Blair was patrolling, and Blair's explanation was unbelievable (Kilrathi stealth fighters that had no other evidence besides Blair's own words--nobody else had seen them and Blair didn't even have a video image from his flight recorder), so naturally Tolwyn concluded that Blair was making up a story to cover his own backside. The second reason was that Blair was prone to disobey orders and go off on his own--note how he went to attack K'Tithrak Mang solo though ordered to patrol the Concordia's flanks instead. And yet despite Blair's disobedience, Blair somehow managed to save the day and come out looking like the big hero, which must be incredibly galling to a by-the-book Admiral who believes strongly in the chain of command.

The Tolwyn seen from the start of Wing Commander 2 until the end of Fleet Action has also not yet undergone two crushing defeats that would shape his later appearances in Wing Commander 3 and 4. First, the Kilrathi attack on the core worlds (including Sol System), which Confed was unable to stop, resulting in several heavily populated worlds including Earth being subject to multiple nuclear strikes each (well over a billion humans killed altogether). This made Tolwyn desperate to win the war by any means possible, honorable or not, and led to him pouring everything into Project Behemoth. When the Behemoth is destroyed, it is only Blair's daring fighter strike with the Temblor Bomb that is able to end the war--not only had Tolwyn's trump card failed, but Blair had once again stolen his glory.

even in wing commander 2 Tolwyn was more arrogant and self assured than in the book. dont get me wrong there are hints of it in the book, but as a whole he seems a lot more even keeled than in the games, it could just be the way Mcdowell chose to play him as well.

thats what I figured about Blair and Tolwyn, even though blair was proven right about the stealth fighters. it was always just so apparent that he hated and I mean hated blair, the scene that best shows this is in wc4 where if you fail to many missions tolwyn kicks you out and wont even shake his hand

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Dr. Forstchen used to describe Tolwyn as being an analogue for General Douglas MacArthur. If MacArthur liked you, he would do anything in his power to help your career... and if he didn't, he would go after you. Similarly, he had a split public view; he's the liberator of the Philippines or he's a coward who left his men to die; Savior of Terra... or a man who betrayed the Confederation.

Now that's something of an unspoken retcon, because what we usually forget is that Forstchen picked up the Tolwyn character in 1992-3... which was the one point in the franchise where he /wasn't/ your hated tight-ass CO. In 1992, Tolwyn wasn't yet Malcolm McDowell. He'd been a thorn in your side in Wing Commander II, although even that game was fair about him (Angel, Sparks, Paladin defend him outright to you and in all interactions he's shown to be a /reasonable/ man who simply doesn't like Blair.) And then the latest stories were Special Operations 1 and 2... and as far as anyone could tell, the bad blood between the two was over. Blair flies missions for Tolwyn personally, and the two act respectful and even joke about their past issues.

So it wasn't really until 1994, when McDowell was cast as Tolwyn and the character was relegated to 'evil Admiral, crazy' status that the need for multiple public views of the man was developed. (And of course, Wing Commander IV cemented that for all time and made ever respecting Tolwyn difficult.)

Anyway, Wing Commander's "EU" has given us some more interesting backstory to help explain Tolwyn's peculiar interaction with Blair. We've since learned that Tolwyn had served with Blair's father in the previous war and that for several reasons (either personal connection or for involvement in the genetics program inspired by Tolwyn's knowledge of his parents) he had observed Blair's development, going so far as to send a psychiatrist to interview him regularly during his Academy days. Tolwyn sets himself up as Blair's mentor, securing his assignment to the top carrier in the fleet and personally teaching him about command. The two have a falling out over the Dolos operation, with Blair publicly shaming Tolwyn (for actions the Admiral would have seen as evidence of his loyalty to the Confederation.) When it comes time to bale someone for the destruction of the Tiger's Claw and all evidence suggests Blair, it's not hard for Tolwyn to accept that (and that's exacerbated by their shared personal knowledge that Blair had once correctly blamed a similar incident on a Kilrathi stealth fighter... something Tolwyn was personally extremely embarssed by, and covered up.)

 

[Jdawg]

Dr. Forstchen used to describe Tolwyn as being an analogue for General Douglas MacArthur. If MacArthur liked you, he would do anything in his power to help your career... and if he didn't, he would go after you. Similarly, he had a split public view; he's the liberator of the Philippines or he's a coward who left his men to die; Savior of Terra... or a man who betrayed the Confederation.

Now that's something of an unspoken retcon, because what we usually forget is that Forstchen picked up the Tolwyn character in 1992-3... which was the one point in the franchise where he /wasn't/ your hated tight-ass CO. In 1992, Tolwyn wasn't yet Malcolm McDowell. He'd been a thorn in your side in Wing Commander II, although even that game was fair about him (Angel, Sparks, Paladin defend him outright to you and in all interactions he's shown to be a /reasonable/ man who simply doesn't like Blair.) And then the latest stories were Special Operations 1 and 2... and as far as anyone could tell, the bad blood between the two was over. Blair flies missions for Tolwyn personally, and the two act respectful and even joke about their past issues.

So it wasn't really until 1994, when McDowell was cast as Tolwyn and the character was relegated to 'evil Admiral, crazy' status that the need for multiple public views of the man was developed. (And of course, Wing Commander IV cemented that for all time and made ever respecting Tolwyn difficult.)

Anyway, Wing Commander's "EU" has given us some more interesting backstory to help explain Tolwyn's peculiar interaction with Blair. We've since learned that Tolwyn had served with Blair's father in the previous war and that for several reasons (either personal connection or for involvement in the genetics program inspired by Tolwyn's knowledge of his parents) he had observed Blair's development, going so far as to send a psychiatrist to interview him regularly during his Academy days. Tolwyn sets himself up as Blair's mentor, securing his assignment to the top carrier in the fleet and personally teaching him about command. The two have a falling out over the Dolos operation, with Blair publicly shaming Tolwyn (for actions the Admiral would have seen as evidence of his loyalty to the Confederation.) When it comes time to bale someone for the destruction of the Tiger's Claw and all evidence suggests Blair, it's not hard for Tolwyn to accept that (and that's exacerbated by their shared personal knowledge that Blair had once correctly blamed a similar incident on a Kilrathi stealth fighter... something Tolwyn was personally extremely embarssed by, and covered up.)

thanks for the response and the in depth one at that. its obvious the author has love for the character of Tolwyn, and its good to see that side of him especially with his nephew kevin, in fleet action. What I find funny is that Malcolm played Tolwyn as a man coming un glued in WC3, which was way before the story for Wc4 was even written. I wonder if chris roberts and Mcdowell had conversations about the character and where he would go if there was a sequel to the game. I wish we could have seen some more scenes with Tolwyn throughout wc3 and wc4. In fact I always thought that wc4 told such a great story it should have been split into two parts and made into two games.

 

[Jdawg]

by the way I never lost respect for Tolwyn even after WC4. what he did was wrong and he deserved to die, but he did what he thought had to be done, was he wrong in the way he did it, yes, but was he wrong about what would happen in the future, no. WC5 proved Tolwyn right in his theories, he just went about preparing the human race completely the wrong way. In jail I think he realizes that too, and is why he commits suicide

 

[quaker2k8]

by the way I never lost respect for Tolwyn even after WC4. what he did was wrong and he deserved to die, but he did what he thought had to be done, was he wrong in the way he did it, yes, but was he wrong about what would happen in the future, no. WC5 proved Tolwyn right in his theories, he just went about preparing the human race completely the wrong way. In jail I think he realizes that too, and is why he commits suicide

Sure, he did what he thought had to be done... completely nuts and he committed terrible crimes. Just like Kurtz in Apocalypse Now, he didn't evolve into a visionary but into a monster.

Kurtz at least realized it and let them finish it, while Tolwyn fought until the end and the way I understood the end of WC4, he didn't hang himself because he was sorry but just for his ego, preferring suicide over execution. Just like Hitler.

 

[Jdawg]

Sure, he did what he thought had to be done... completely nuts and he committed terrible crimes. Just like Kurtz in Apocalypse Now, he didn't evolve into a visionary but into a monster.

Kurtz at least realized it and let them finish it, while Tolwyn fought until the end and the way I understood the end of WC4, he didn't hang himself because he was sorry but just for his ego, preferring suicide over execution. Just like Hitler.

thats not how I took his suicide, and yes the parallel of the Nazis and the black lance forces are right there for everyone to see. Like I said I dont think tolwyn went about things the right way at all and he deserved to die for his war crimes, all im saying is I understood what he was trying to do and why he was so fearful, lets be honest it was pure luck confed beat the kilrathi. They out numbered us and had more ships, and while we had the better base fighters, they had the better advance fighters especially in the stealth division, and by the end far better cap ships. Plus Confed was almost lulled to sleep by the fake cease fire, and bc of that earth was nearly destroyed. So after the war Tolwyn did not want the fake sense of security to happen again. and while there are similarities between hitler and tolywn I wound never say they were on the same level at least to me.

 

[quaker2k8]

I mentioned Hitler because of their final moments: Choosing suicide when rounded up. From the biography and character, Kurtz would be the more interesting one to compare Tolwyn with: Brilliant military commander gone insane on a vision of ruthless warfare without any rules. Wanting to save his soldiers and his country by sacrificing his own sanity and every trace of what we call civilization....

Anyway, WC4 did everything it could to show that Tolwyn was in many ways even worse than Hitler... using bioweapons on your own people just to make a point, not even out of a misguided desperation on a defensive campaign but clearly in an aggressive, evil way. That's quite a lot.

 

[Jdawg]

I mentioned Hitler because of their final moments: Choosing suicide when rounded up. From the biography and character, Kurtz would be the more interesting one to compare Tolwyn with: Brilliant military commander gone insane on a vision of ruthless warfare without any rules. Wanting to save his soldiers and his country by sacrificing his own sanity and every trace of what we call civilization....

Anyway, WC4 did everything it could to show that Tolwyn was in many ways even worse than Hitler... using bioweapons on your own people just to make a point, not even out of a misguided desperation on a defensive campaign but clearly in an aggressive, evil way. That's quite a lot.

oh I agree the bio weapons was the nail in his coffin, I wouldnt say Tolwyn was mad in the traditional sense, in my eyes he wanted to go the kilrathi route and weed out the weak, (which I dont agree with at all) but I can see why he thought that. lets be honest in space there is a lot more unknown, yes here on earth in real present day, humans are developing weapons to one up each other but they are all in the same ball field with each other in terms of tech. but in space you could run across a race a 100 times more ruthless and 100 times more advanced than the kilrathi, which is what happened in wc5 or in other universes such as the reavers in mass effect, who's sole goal was to wipe out all living things with no prisoners or surrender. plus after reading most of fleet action so far I can see why tolwyn started to go mad.


on a side note it amazes me how many spies, and moles the kilrathi were able to plant in confed and on earth

 

[Dundradal]

And now you see why in the other thread I said you should get all the books! There's a lot of good stuff in there!

 

[Jdawg]

And now you see why in the other thread I said you should get all the books! There's a lot of good stuff in there!

you are right, there is a lot of good stuff, fleet action is a great read and sets a good pace at just being under 300 pages, im on chapter 10. the stuff im finding most interesting is the politics of the kilrathi empire, I wish we saw more of that in the games

 

[Jdawg]

also after reading the book so far I never knew how many other species were out there, (dont get me wrong I always knew their had to be more alien races out there besides the cats, but you never see one and its never mentioned in the games) you think at the end of wc4 there might be one or two present at the general assembly.

 

[Dondragmer]

I assume that the Wing Commander III screenplay was mostly written before Malcolm McDowell was cast? Even in writing, it consistently portrays Admiral Tolwyn as concerned about his own image. He doesn't just want to save humanity, he want to be the savior of humanity, and he wants everyone to know it.

In Series J (Torgo):, the screenplay explicitly comments on Tolwyn's character.

TOLWYN (V.O.)
Behemoth is a series of linked, superconducting energy amplification conduits, focusing an output of five hundred million gigawatts into one lancing point. Any target at the end of that point is destroyed - -

EISEN INTERRUPTS. HE CAN'T HELP HIMSELF:

EISEN
- - even a planet . . .

TOLWYN SHOOTS A LOOK AT EISEN: HE'S NOT A MAN WHO CARES FOR HIS THUNDER BEING STOLEN.

In Series K (Loki), Tolwyn states that he's only concerned about the progress of the war, but this is in the middle of a conversation about loyalty and his personal commitment to the Behemoth. He seems conflicted in many of his interactions with Blair. He wants Blair to be a good pilot, but he wants Blair to be a good pilot for Tolwyn, not just for the Confederation.

TOLWYN
A fine quality, your transfer of loyalties.
-> (beat)
Project Behemoth needs a guardian angel. I've been with it since its inception. The choice was clear-cut and indisputable.
-> (beat)
We all have just one superiority, Colonel; the progress of the war.

Still in Loki, Tolwyn describes the Behemoth as though he's the one personally operating it.

TOLWYN (V.O.)
This is a simple one, Colonel. Cover me while I fire the Behemoth.

In Series L (Alcor), with the Behemoth destroyed, Tolwyn seems more concerned with finding someone to blame than working out a new way to win the war. As an Admiral, he could probably help the Temblor Bomb project succeed, but he departs instead. (As it happens, Paladin and Eisen seem happy to run the Temblor Bomb themselves, but Tolwyn would hardly leave it to them just because they preferred it that way. Up until this point he has been shown explicitly disregarding his subordinates' opinions of him.)

TOLWYN
They knew where we were going . . . and when . . . They knew exactly where to strike . . .
-> (bitterly)
I have every reason to suspect you have a leaky ship, Captain.

EISEN
Respectfully, sir . . . I resent such innuendoes concerning my crew's loyalty. Battles are won or lost. There are never any guarantees.
-> (beat)
And at the time, she was your ship, sir.

TOLWYN LOOKS SOURLY AT EISEN . . .
THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE HIS FINEST HOUR, AND NOW THERE IS ONLY THE TASTE OF GALACTIC DUST IN HIS MOUTH . . .

I agree with others who have said that none of his statements or actions in WC2 foreshadow this. On the other hand, his behavior in WC4 follows logically from WC3. Tolwyn wants to be the savior of humanity, and the fact the humanity doesn't need or want a savior isn't going to stop him...

 

[LeHah]

It also doesn't help things that Blair rejects Tolwyn's award in the final scene of the Wing Commander Academy TV series. It really sets up the situation to Tolwyn not liking Blair on a personal or even ethical level (though, yes, Tolwyn was later shown to be deeply unethical himself.)

And though its definitely more a "between the lines" thing, lets not forget Seether was probably the role Tolwyn wanted for Blair in the whole Black Lance affair. Tolwyn was definitely grooming our hero for a larger role but it became obvious that Blair's personality made him too "bull-headed" to be molded into a figure to be used. (I've personally wondered if this didn't set the whole BL concept back in some ways - having Blair as your XO would be a huge boon to "public relations" in a way)

 

[Jdawg]

I assume that the Wing Commander III screenplay was mostly written before Malcolm McDowell was cast? Even in writing, it consistently portrays Admiral Tolwyn as concerned about his own image. He doesn't just want to save humanity, he want to be the savior of humanity, and he wants everyone to know it.

In Series J (Torgo):, the screenplay explicitly comments on Tolwyn's character.



In Series K (Loki), Tolwyn states that he's only concerned about the progress of the war, but this is in the middle of a conversation about loyalty and his personal commitment to the Behemoth. He seems conflicted in many of his interactions with Blair. He wants Blair to be a good pilot, but he wants Blair to be a good pilot for Tolwyn, not just for the Confederation.



Still in Loki, Tolwyn describes the Behemoth as though he's the one personally operating it.



In Series L (Alcor), with the Behemoth destroyed, Tolwyn seems more concerned with finding someone to blame than working out a new way to win the war. As an Admiral, he could probably help the Temblor Bomb project succeed, but he departs instead. (As it happens, Paladin and Eisen seem happy to run the Temblor Bomb themselves, but Tolwyn would hardly leave it to them just because they preferred it that way. Up until this point he has been shown explicitly disregarding his subordinates' opinions of him.)



I agree with others who have said that none of his statements or actions in WC2 foreshadow this. On the other hand, his behavior in WC4 follows logically from WC3. Tolwyn wants to be the savior of humanity, and the fact the humanity doesn't need or want a savior isn't going to stop him...

I agree that his attitude in wc2 doesnet foreshadow the atrocities he commits in wc4 but you can def see character traits from tolwyn in wc2 that follow to wc3 and wc4, which Mcdowell then brings to life. he is by no means mad with power in wc2 but he is arrogant, self assured and doesnt like his opinion challenged at all in wc2, and those traits do carry over to wc3 to me.

 

[Dondragmer]

Tolwyn was definitely grooming our hero for a larger role but it became obvious that Blair's personality made him too "bull-headed" to be molded into a figure to be used. (I've personally wondered if this didn't set the whole BL concept back in some ways - having Blair as your XO would be a huge boon to "public relations" in a way)

Yes. I just re-watched the conversation between Tolwyn and Blair at the start of WC4. (Link is to a Let's Play video with occasional interjections from the player. Sorry.) Knowing what happens in the rest of the game, it's obvious that Tolwyn thinks he knows what motivates Blair... and that, after all these years, he's still wrong. This is especially clear in Blair's uneasy reaction to "I'm putting you back in the cockpit, where you'll be reunited with an old friend... the thrill of battle." Blair may live to fly like an eagle, but he does not live to fight like Tolwyn and Seether.

But, in Tolwyn's ideal Black Lance future, would Blair be under Seether's command, would Seether be under Blair's command, or would he manipulate them into fighting to the death as part of the culling process? When Seether taunts Blair on Nephele, at the Orlando Depot and on the Lexington, is he following Tolwyn's orders, or does Seether fear that Blair might replace him as Tolwyn's preferred murder machine?

 

[Dundradal]

I agree that his attitude in wc2 doesnet foreshadow the atrocities he commits in wc4 but you can def see character traits from tolwyn in wc2 that follow to wc3 and wc4, which Mcdowell then brings to life. he is by no means mad with power in wc2 but he is arrogant, self assured and doesnt like his opinion challenged at all in wc2, and those traits do carry over to wc3 to me.

Another part of Tolwyn's transition to the later character we see in WC4 is worked out in the novel False Colors. Without spoiling it for you, Tolwyn explains what motivated him to rush the Behemoth into service while working on a secret project for the Free Republic of the Landreich (who you're reading about in Fleet Action).

 

[Jdawg]

Another part of Tolwyn's transition to the later character we see in WC4 is worked out in the novel False Colors. Without spoiling it for you, Tolwyn explains what motivated him to rush the Behemoth into service while working on a secret project for the Free Republic of the Landreich (who you're reading about in Fleet Action).

I think im getting false colors next, but after reading fleet action im shocked tolwyn didnt go crazy sooner, its a lot for one person to take. it does now paint a far clearer picture.

does anyone know why chris roberts didnt take more from the novels, like sub plots and characters ( for instance just adding kevin tolwyn to the games would have helped round out Geoff Tolwyns character to me)

 

[LeHah]

I think im getting false colors next, but after reading fleet action im shocked tolwyn didnt go crazy sooner, its a lot for one person to take. it does now paint a far clearer picture.

I think the point is that he was *always* crazy and that he lost perspective along the way. (Admittedly, this has more to do with how the actor played the role but) look at the blank stare on Tolwyn's face when he's caught out in front of the Confed assembly at the end of WC4. Its not a "Whoops! I'm caught!", its more of a "Wait, what...?"

does anyone know why chris roberts didnt take more from the novels, like sub plots and characters ( for instance just adding kevin tolwyn to the games would have helped round out Geoff Tolwyns character to me)

LOAF should be able to answer that but I assume they were simply written past Roberts view.