Suggestions for Freelancer>>>Privateer

Bob McDob

Bob McDob

Better Health Through Less Flavor
So I was sitting at home tonight, reloading the FLServer program for the 3474th times as I tried to find the cause of the most recent Devastating Crash when I was struck by a Blinding Flash of the Obvious ... I can't do this alone. Even the entire Privateer: The Reckoning team can't handle it, because inevitably we'll be so close to the source that we won't be able to look into the most obvious things, or be able to reach our full potential. That's why professionals have beta testers.

Now, I'm not going to invite any of you to join our team and get paid minimum wage to sit in a chair for twelve hours a day watching our mod crash again and again, but it's almost as good! You get to help define the direction this project will make. Because, frankly, everyone else tried to kill themselves doing so.

I've always believed that the best games (except for the most abstract sort, like cards) are best when they capture the feel of their subject matter. It might seem obvious in retrospect, but a sports game should make you feel like you're Mohammed Beckam Jordan-Jordan. A wargame should give you the feel of being in command of the Spanish Armada, with the fate of millions in your hand. Twitch shooters like Tyrian and even board games like Monopoly should convey the singleminded focus of furball combat and the raw aphrodisiac power of being Donald Trump.

Well, I think it was Trump, anyway.

The point is, I want this mod to be as close to its roots as possible, to convey the feel of being part of a living, breathing universe that also happens to be the Wing Commander one. That's why I started this mod, I hoped to replace the fun but arbitrary and overall too game-ey feel of Freelancer with more, well, freedom. I want authentic ships, weapons and enemies, progression that feels realistic, not stilted. And I want it to be as simple as possible. Depth without complexity.

That's pretty damn ambitious. And I'm going to need help.

For starters, the ships. How many ships? Which ones? How much will they cost? How much cargo will they carry? Will they be tough? Weak? Should a merchant be flying a Hellcat in 2681?

Even more to the point, I want ideas on how to expand the game. Quite frankly, I'm bored of the game. This mod was started by a few people who thought Freelancer could gain its full potential by emulating its illustrious predessors. What could be added? The ability to fly courier missions, perhaps. More dynamic encounters, like capital ships. A few modders have added "Kill Battleship" random missions. It's a start. Collisions have been made more damaging. It's a good idea, but frankly not enticing when the auto-dock regularly smashes you into jump-gates. What about hiring wingmen?

There are a million things we can do with this, and frankly the opportunities are a bit overwhelming. I want to hear your thoughts.
 
Since all of the missions you can take currently are of the "destroy target" or "space superiority" type, I would like to see the following types added:

Courier: You must deliver a certain cargo or a data packet to a base in another system. You will not be asked to go to a base that would not otherwise allow you to land due to your reputation with them.

Escort: You (and possibly an NPC wingman) must escort a convoy to a base in another system, defending it against attackers.

Defense: You must defend a base or battleship in the same system from a group of attackers

Recon: You must fly to a set of waypoints (and possibly scan some targets). Destroying enemy ships is not a requirement for mission success.
 
Like I said, I'm fairly certain the Retros no longer exist - so aside from a few fanatical holdolds you're not likely to see them in this time frame.
 
Ship List

Code: 
Name		Cost		Hardpoints		Cargo
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret		$30,000		2 Gun			20 units
Talon		$35,000		3 Gun, 2 Msl		20 units
Hornet		$35,000		2 Gun, 2 Msl		20 units
Razor		$35,000		4 Gun, 2 Msl		20 units
Arrow		$40,000		4 Gun, 2 Msl		20 units
Stiletto		$40,000		2 Gun, 2 Msl		20 units
Gladius		$55,000		3 Gun, 2 Msl		35 units
Tarsus		$40,000		2 Gun, 1 Msl		150 units
Demon		$65,000		4 Gun, 1 Msl		35 units
Hellcat		$70,000		4 Gun, 2 Msl		40 units
Orion		$75,000		2 Gun, 1 Msl, 1 Tur	50 units
Raptor		$80,000		6 Gun, 3 Msl		60 units
Thunderbolt	$85,000		6 Gun, 2 Msl, 1 Tur	70 units
Banshee		$100,000		4 Gun, 2 Msl		20 units
Rapier		$125,000		4 Gun, 2 Msl		35 units
Galaxy		$150,000		2 Gun, 2 Msl, 2 Tur	225 units
Vindicator	$175,000		4 Gun, 3 Msl, 1 Tur	40 units
Epee		$100,000		2 Gun, 2 Msl		20 units 
Sabre		$200,000		4 Gun, 2 Msl, 1 Tur	60 units
Centurion		$200,000		4 Gun, 2 Msl		50 units
Diligent		$550,000		3 Tur			400 units	
Crossbow		$830,000		5 Gun, 3 Msl		50 units
Broadsword	$950,000		3 Gun, 6 Msl, 3 Tur	75 units
Bearcat		$950,000		4 Gun, 2 Msl		50 units
Free Trader	$1,450,000	5 Tur			1000 units
Drayman		$2,000,000	2 Gun, 5 Tur		1200 units

Dralthi		$100,000		3 Gun, 1 Msl		8 units
Gothri		$350,000		4 Gun, 2 Msl, 1 Tur	16 units
Jalthi		$520,000		6 Gun, 2 Msl		32 units
 
Hmmmm, gripe time :p.

I know you've got a lot of ship slots to fill, but if you're gonna insist on having mil-spec fighters in there, go for the pre-'54 ones. You know, the Scim, the Ferret, maybe a bunch of completely made-up designs. It's stupid to have late '50s and '60s fighters available, at least at such ridiculously low prices. Look at the world outside - sure, it's possible to buy a Polish trainer jet from the early 70s (for a hefty price) or an F8F Bearcat (if you're damned lucky and are willing to pay a hell of a lot), but good luck with that fully-combat-capable F-4 Phantom, buddy. Thunderbolts, Banshees, Vindicators... Bearcats?! Did I miss something? Last I checked, F-14s-18s were pretty difficult to buy for the ordinary citizen. Remember Governor Menesh? He lost his job over Talon sales.

And cargo space. Huh? You're telling me that the tiny little Ferret with hardly enough room for the pilot, has almost half the cargo space of the comparatively-huge Centurion? A pilot would be lucky to fit his groceries inside the Ferret, let alone any significant amount of cargo.
 
Well I would say that any fighters from before the end of the Terran-Kilrathi war would be fair game, but anything from later (Vindicator, Banshee, Bearcat) should not be available for civilians.


As for the lighter fighters having the cargo space, for gameplay reasons it is a bad idea for any ship to have less than 15 units of cargo space. I think that the fighters on this list from Hellcat afterwards should have about 1/3 more cargo space to compensate, while the lighter ones keep the 20-30 unit holds.
 
Why would it be a bad idea for a ship to have less than 15 units of cargo? Nobody's forcing the player to buy a light fighter. If he does buy one, he's obviously not planning to become a trader... and if he is, then his choice of ship proves him to be a moron.
 
But there's the bounty issue. :)

Since Trading is basically the only way someone can make money fast on Freelancer, the drayman and the free trader would be way too much better than anything else. Consider that the best trader of Freelancer carries 275 cargo.

Unless of course a different business model would also be used.
 
If a Drayman can't dogfight, why should a Ferret carry cargo? :p

If that was the case, I bet any transport company owners would rather have 60 Ferrets than a Drayman. Ferrets can hold their own, and don't need an escort - and they're probably cheaper to mantain... The Drayman's only advantage would be the smaller crew you have to pay for.

Fighters should have just enough room for a shield generator, an engine, some guns, missiles, and decoys - like they did in Elite & Co.

--Eder
 
Originally posted by Eder
If a Drayman can't dogfight, why should a Ferret carry cargo?
Click to expand...

People like to do both. Think "Centurion". Think "Millenium Falcon".

Anyway, my point was about game balance. It's far too easy to make a fortune on Freelancer with the Dromedary and 275 cargo. The 1000 cargo thing is overkill, unless a completely different business model is made.

Of course a light fighter should not have much cargo space. But the point here is about game balance. That much cargo space allows for a lot of money to be made way too easly.

Edit: the WHOLE point of Elite is that the ships could both trade AND dogfight. The Cobra MKIII is both a great fighter and carry a good amount of cargo. It's the opposite of the point you was trying to make, it's the last example you shoud've used. :D
 
You're all probably right - I never really wanted 10,000 ships for purchase anyway. What I'll probably do is only make the Bounty Hunter and other civillian ships available for purchase initially, maybe make the military-grade type available at higher levels - say, 10 for militia, 20 for BWM, 40 for front-line Confed - and increase the price, reduce the cargo appropriately. Maybe standardize it at 10 units. Give the player some hard choices to make about the type of game they want to play.

All weapons are available from the entire Privateer, for sale at any base, as is all equipment, but for various reasons I don't want to increase the weapon list above that (except maybe for the Stormfire and Dragonfly missiles). Clashes too much with the KISS rule I want to adhere to.

As for starting players, pretty much anything (well, in multiplayer) can be edited. What do you think the starting base, ship, money should be? 2500 in cash and a bare-bones Talon on Manhatten? Used Orion in the Borderworld regions? Somewhere in between?
 
And if they want to do both, they'll but themselves a Centurion. To have fifty thousand ships with identical capabilities is pointless and stupid. It also destroys the idea of flying with WC ships. If you give a Ferret cargo space, why not just make a 2km-long Ferret with the stats of the Concordia? In either case, it won't be the old WC2 Ferret that people actually want to fly.

Bottom line, most of these ships are military fighters. Ignoring the fact that a civilian circa 2681 won't be able to buy them, they're designed exclusively for combat. They have no cargo holds. One or two of them will have a little bit of space that can be used for cargo by virtue of their size - ships like the Broadsword, Crossbow, Gothri, et cetera. But even then, it won't be comparable to the Centurion's cargo hold.
 
Bah, your post wasn't there when I started typing, Bob :p.

More comments.
You could actually make the Stormfire available (if the game supports ammo-based guns), but in that case, it ought to be available from pirates (that's where Pliers got Stormfires from in WC4). Alternatively, some sort of low-quality civilian version of the mass-produced model could be available elsewhere.

If you're going to have military fighters available, then that price increase should be extreme. Like, 50x-100x :p.

As for starting players, the Tarsus, like in Priv, may be the best solution.
 
Originally posted by Delance
People like to do both. Think "Centurion". Think "Millenium Falcon".
Click to expand...
Talk about bad examples. The Millenium Falcon and Centurion are *designed* as cargo-and-combat ships. The Ferret is NOT. The Ferret is WAY smaller than either of those ships. You are comparing jet skis to yachts - sure, they're not mile-long tanker ships, but they're a lot different in every respect...

Originally posted by Delance
Anyway, my point was about game balance. It's far too easy to make a fortune on Freelancer with the Dromedary and 275 cargo. The 1000 cargo thing is overkill, unless a completely different business model is made.
Click to expand...
Yes, but I didn't say anything about that. I was talking about the fighters... and the issue of the fighters looks wrong from the game balance point of view as well - a Ferret, a Hellcat, or a Sabre can get to point A to point B *much* faster and *much* more safely than an unescorted Dilligent... I'd rather fly 10 cargo runs in a Sabre than get killed and retry the same cargo run 10 times in a Dilligent only to earn the same amount of cash.

I'd say strip fighters of any cargo ability... make ships like the Tarsus, Orion, Centurion, and Avenger the "light freighters"... and make the difference between them and the largest available freighters smaller.

Originally posted by Delance
Of course a light fighter should not have much cargo space.
Click to expand...
Light fighters don't have cargo space, period. Anyone looking to transport cargo or raid transports wants a Centurion, a Talon, or maybe even a Demon - not a Ferret.

Originally posted by Delance
That much cargo space allows for a lot of money to be made way too easly.
Click to expand...
What are you talking about? Are you saying that making a lot of money way too easily is a good thing? Or are you saying (like I am) that a Ferret should not have 1/20th of the cargo capacity of a Dilligent?

Originally posted by Delance
Edit: the WHOLE point of Elite is that the ships could both trade AND dogfight.
Click to expand...
That's just the most absurd generalization I've ever heard. Are you sure there wasn't anyone telling you what to do while you played Elite?

The "WHOLE point of Elite" is that you *can* go for a ship which can both trade AND dogfight - like the Centurion or the Cobra, the Orion or the Viper - but you can also go for a light fighter which does NOT carry cargo (Falcon, Ospray, Eagle, Hawk - Ferret, Hornet, Arrow, Rapier) and leaves you barely enough room for the fuel... and if you've really got the confidence, you can go for a ship which is a great trader, but can't hit the broad side of a barn (like the Boa, Anaconda, and the Mantis) and eats up a dozen Asp Explorers worth of fuel every minute :p.

Please go play Elite again before you describe the damn game's ships as if they had all the jack-of-all-tradeness of Freelancer's original ships :(

A balanced game doesn't mean a game in which all ships can do the same things, but some just have all numbers higher than the other ones... I see no reason why Hornets should carry cargo, just as I see no reason Clydesdales should dogfight.

--Eder
 
Uhm, I don't think my points were well understood.

1. The Clydeslide shoudn't dogfight. Transports also shouldn't be used to launch strikes against secret traitor enemy starbases, but they do that anyway. But my point is that the economic model of Freelancer makes it too easy for trade to make more money then combat as it is. Multiplying the cargo capacity of transports by 4 would make it even less balanced.

I'm talking about the game balance and economic model of Freelancer, not on the morality of the cargo hold of the Ferret or whatever.

2. I didn't say someone should be a trader using a a Ferret.

3. In Elite, THE ONLY SHIP YOU COULD FLY WAS THE COBRA MK III. That's the MSX version by Firebird. That's the only version I played. That's the premier version of Elite in Brazil. I'm not aware of any version that allows you to buy a different ship. The 2 PC version don't. It's not so much of a generalization, but a fact.

In WC1 you only could pilot confed fighters!
Wow, that’s an absurd generalization!

I hope that cleard things up. :D
 
[q]But my point is that the economic model of Freelancer makes it too easy for trade to make more money then combat as it is. Multiplying the cargo capacity of transports by 4 would make it even less balanced.[/q]

Unless you keep getting killed by Hessians in a Humpback!
 
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