Space sim games (SW Episode II Spoilers)

Originally posted by junior
Considering that Jango is a big part of the AotC plot, that leads to the obvious follow-up question, which is, what got cut so that Jango and Boba could be included?
Who cares? :p The movie didn't feel like Jango had been forced into it - if Lucas had indeed cut something to put him in, he did a damn good job of it. The Jango & Boba subplot was one of the neatest parts of the movie, I thought.

BTW, Ghost, could you e-mail me (qmajewski@yahoo.co.uk)? You mentioned something about being willing to do voiceovers, and the zone's e-mail option is disabled as usual :p.
 
Eh, Jango wasn't incredibly integral to the whole story. They just needed some guy to clone things from. He hired *another* bounty hunter to do the first attack, who could have just been hired directy, and he led Obi Wan which would have been done by anyone leaving the cloners.
 
Originally posted by junior
Note that the above doesn't exactly agree with Zahn, either, since, iirc, his clones were created by the 'Sparti Clone Masters'(?)...
Spaarti clone cylinders. Remember that this was inside the Emperor's personal storehouse. We don't know if Spaarti refers to a species, a place, a name, or whatever, my theory is that Kameniwhatsitcalled people aren't the only species with cloning technology in the galaxy.

Originally posted by LeHah
Lucas keeps saying "I'm making the prequels like I intended whether people like them or not" yet he seems to be catering heavily to the fans by putting Boba and Jango Fett into Episode II and (supposedly) Episode III.
In the second paragraph of this interview with George Lucas, he states much of the battles scenes in Episode II were due to demand. Personally, I'm glad he included the action - I expected to see dozens of Jedi in action (not just two) in Episode I.

Originally posted by I'm thinkin...
Later, as in Ep III, we will probably see Palpatine using the clone army to his advantage and attacking his political enemies and eventually proclaiming himself Emperor and then using the army he has created to maintain control of the newly formed Empire.
Reasonable, but this is still speculation at this point.

Originally posted by Quarto
Personally, I thought Episode II was great. Far from perfect, it was, but still great.
As do I - even the best of the lot, maybe if only because there was so much to absorb (which in itself could be seen as a bad point as well).

Originally posted by junior
...Lucas has pretty much admitted that the only reason Jango was included was to make fans happy...
Until Episode II, I never heard of Jango Fett. :confused:

Originally posted by Quarto
The movie didn't feel like Jango had been forced into it...
Not at all - Jango's helmet was used as the image of the antagonist (in the same way Darth Maul was used for Episode I) in all the advertising I saw, including the official movie poster. Dooku's face hardly looks menacing if you don't know what he's supposed to be doing.
 
Originally posted by Wedge009
Reasonable, but this is still speculation at this point.

As do I - even the best of the lot, maybe if only because there was so much to absorb (which in itself could be seen as a bad point as well).

Not at all - Jango's helmet was used as the image of the antagonist (in the same way Darth Maul was used for Episode I) in all the advertising I saw, including the official movie poster. Dooku's face hardly looks menacing if you don't know what he's supposed to be doing.

Everything is going to be speculation until Episode III is released, but basically in my opinion thats about whats going to happen between Episode II and IV.

Yeah I really enjoyed the end with the ominous Empire music and all. Really gave a feel for the coming shadow of darkness about to enfold the galaxy.



Even the helmets the clone soldiers wear are designed like Jengo's. Helps give the movie an even more shadowy feel.
 
Episode I would have made a lot more sense with more than just two Jedi... if the Jedi had sent a force to retake Naboo. Then they'd, you know, *actually* be protectors of peace and order...

Spaarti clone cylinders. Remember that this was inside the Emperor's personal storehouse. We don't know if Spaarti refers to a species, a place, a name, or whatever, my theory is that Kameniwhatsitcalled people aren't the only species with cloning technology in the galaxy.

Based on how they're described by Dex, cloning seems to be something more than one race posseses.
 
I'm going to post this once and only once.

Reasons Episode 2 was terrible:

1.) It lacked the narrative flow of even Episode 1

Though Episode 2 was arguably more entertaining and better looking, it definitely lacked from a bad narritive case of In media res. Lucas expects us to know these characters from the get go, despite the fact that Anakin is now played by a different actor and most of the scenery and political climate has changed. Where even Episode 1 started with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan reaching the Trade Federation ship, followed by a linear progression toward an inevitable if not predictable ending, Episode 2 was so badly written it could only be described as "things happen". Yes, they do take consequence in later films, and they are from the effects of Episode 1, but the movie, unto it's self, has absolutely no feet to stand on.

2.) Acting was a measure too poor to be called acting

George Lucas screened 400 boys/men from 18 to 25 to play Anakin and he picked Christianson. Though I don't completely agree with the "whiney" complaint some critics make, I think that he was pretty damned bland at best. Admittedly, almost any actor given that roll is doomed to not live up to it, the odds that there was a better actor in the 399 Lucas screened are pretty damned good. Ewan McGreggor, a very talented actor, looks about as bored as a kid at sunday church as Obi-Wan and Portman, once again, is forced to vomit more bad lines about government.

3.) The editing makes Baby Jesus cry

I'm not going to say a whole lot about this part, as it's too technical to be considered a real flaw. But goddamn, I couldn't help but NOT get excited at the speeder chase during the opening sequence. It's like Lucas taking a SFX frying pan and hitting the audience over the head with it harder than he usually does... but this time, the editing made it really inept. Just how many first-person composite shots can a director allow of a speeder going straight down into night time urban splendor? According to Lucas, too many.

And I can't tell you how much I loved those exposition shots of Jedi posing in the Arena. Again. And again. And again. And again.

4.) Humor

I can understand people disliking Jar-Jar. Really. But in Episode 1, I thought he took second place in annoyance to Jake Lloyd: while Jar-Jar was there for bad comedy, he has no direct affect on the original trilogy, unlike Anakin. But I digress...

Episode 2's Arena battle sequence would've been pretty darn good if it wasn't for the constant and unnessessary one-liners by C-3PO. Lucas dropped one in there every 20 seconds, probably beating whatever record a bad Timothy Dalton James Bond movie made.

I'm sure George Lucas is a funny man, but I'll be damned if he knows anything about a set-up to make a punchline. The humor in Episode 2 is like him sticking a rotten egg in your hand, smashing it and expecting you to laugh.

5.) Yoda

Much like Episode 1, I found the lightsaber fighting at the end of the movie to be an attempt to make the audience like something cool. I mean, come on, we all wanted to see some badass Jedi stuff and it makes sense that Lucas tags it on at the end, so the audience has a reasonably detailed memory of a cool fight over the rest of the tripe he passed off as a movie.

This time around, instead of Darth Maul, it's Yoda. Now, I'm not going to say "CGI Yoda is bullshit" because we all know there is a place for CGI Yoda in the end. I have very mixed emotions about Yoda's fight sequence: the most powerful Jedi resorting to a lightsaber seems to be about the same as the Dhali Lama whipping out a chainsaw to free Tibet. Neither seems right, or seems possible once you know the characters. I have little doubt that Yoda didn't "throw down" with the Sith back in the day, but considering that Yoda is just short of 900 in ESB, I can't see the massive character development in 30 years of Yoda spinning and fighting and flipping to the Yoda saying "Your weapons; you will not need them."

It seems like the ultimate fanboy sacralidge.

Finally...

6.) The Prequel Ideal

The idea of any kind of extension to the Star Wars trilogy was doomed from the get-go. Where Lucas spits drivel about mythos and the "power of legend", he forgets that he has ultimately said everything that needs to be said about "The Epic" (in a grand sense) with the original Trilogy. Going back to make prequels to a "Coming-Of-Age" story is like making a prequel of The Shining: You could do it, you can throw in little hints as to what is going to happen, you can build the character's past (thus destroying what you've already made due to new details) and you could give newer and bigger motivations... but why? Aren't things better left unsaid? Aren't things better left to the imagination of children?

The idea of making further Star Wars movies is like writing the Bible, and then making a sequel detailing the life of Lot's Wife.

In the end, these prequels are turning into bad (pardon the pun) clones of the originals. Theres some danger, good guys fight, almost win... followed by a larger, more immedeate danger, good guys fight, almost win... followed by an even bigger, more immedeate danger, good guys fight, almost win...

What was once the best damned series in film history, is being tainted by it's bullshit half-dreamed second cousin follow-ups. The legend will never die, but it sure as hell can be tainted by bad prequels.
 
Originally posted by LeHah
1.) It lacked the narrative flow of even Episode 1
You're stupid.
2.) Acting was a measure too poor to be called acting
You're stupid.
3.) The editing makes Baby Jesus cry
You're stupid.
4.) Humor
You're stupid.
Oh you're stupid
"Your weapons; you will not need them."
That's from an entirely different context, and if you think it has anything to offer to your argument, you're STUPID.
6.) The Prequel Ideal
There we have it, ladies and gents, these movies were doomed in LeHah's mind before they were ever concieved, so you're welcome to completely fucking ignore his agitated ramblings from here out.

This has been a Public Service Announcement by the Foundation for Making You Suck Less Dick Than LeHah, thank you.
 
Originally posted by Wedge009
Spaarti clone cylinders. Remember that this was inside the Emperor's personal storehouse. We don't know if Spaarti refers to a species, a place, a name, or whatever, my theory is that Kameniwhatsitcalled people aren't the only species with cloning technology in the galaxy.

Zahn uses Spaarti to refer to the clone cylinders, and I remember him using the term 'Clone Masters' at one point to refer to the aggressors in the Clone Wars. I don't remember if he said 'Spaarti Clone Masters', but the inference was definitely there.

Originally posted by BanditLOAF
Based on how they're described by Dex, cloning seems to be something more than one race posseses.
Dex definitely leaves room for more clone using races (even has a term for it, after all). The big problem is that everyone's always believed that the Clone Wars were about the Jedi fighting off a group of clones that attacked the Republic (and Zahn connects this with the 'clone masters', who are presumably the Spaarti). The problem is, it appears that everyone was wrong. While this may indeed have happened in the past, it isn't the Clone Wars that everyone is familiar with.
*shrug*
Oh, well.
 
Originally posted by junior
The big problem is that everyone's always believed that the Clone Wars were about the Jedi fighting off a group of clones that attacked the Republic (and Zahn connects this with the 'clone masters', who are presumably the Spaarti). The problem is, it appears that everyone was wrong.
Well we don't know that. As I've tried to illustrate several times already, it's pretty obvious that the clones, which serve Palpatine, will eventually become enemies of the Jedi.

So it's totally reasonable to continue assuming that the Jedi will have to defend the Republic from Clones, which they will obviously fail to do.
 
I thought this movie was very good, the action was amazing, and the digital cinematography was absolutly out of this world. Yoda was amazing, so was count Duko. I kind of thought it dumb that Anakins double lightsaber fight was 5 seconds, but hey guess it takes a while to coriograph that.

The only thing bad about this movie was the ending Jedi fight should of been much much longer, as in Episode 1 the jedi fight at the end was the best part.

Wait until Star Wars Episode 3. The most evil of the trilogy, I can't wait to hear the music when (i will not mention names as not to spoil it), fight.


Nafé
 
Originally posted by Naféasonto

Wait until Star Wars Episode 3. The most evil of the trilogy, I can't wait to hear the music when (i will not mention names as not to spoil it), fight.
Nafé

Oh! No!
Who?
Greedo Vs Wickett?
 
What I liked...

* A fun story where stuff blows up.

* The fact that George Lucas is still the worst person at editing movies in the history of the universe. ("You know, there are other wipes besides 'star wipe'..."). It just gives you this sense that no matter how glittery and 3D-effect-y his movies have become, they're still connected to the first three.

* The actor who played Anakin -- he pulled off being whiney very, very well.

* WAT TAMBOR! The armies of the Techno Union are *bzzzzt* *phissssh* *zzzrrrt* at your disposal! Best background character *ever*!

* Jar Jar's introduction. Did you notice that Jar Jar is brought on to the screen in a way specifically made so the audience could *not* boo him?

* The love story! Complain all you want about how sappy it was and how bad the lines are... but I know that *I'm* going to pretend to go into a rage every time anyone mentions sand to me... for the rest of my life.

* Everything looked *better*. The ships were all awesome looking, the locations were very very well done and the CGI characters no longer look obviously CGI'd.

* Yoda's fight. Yeah, it was cool, whatever... but the whole picking up the cane afterwards seemed very appropriate (albeit layed on a bit thick).

* The prequels are starting to gel with the later movies. There was a very high "So that's why..." and "So this is what they mean when..." factor coming out of the movie.

What I didn't like...

* Modern political commentary. The movies seem to be creeping slowly towards this... and that's *not* what Star Wars should be! Leave that to 'Trek... Star Wars should be epic and mythic and impressive... not a way to worm somebody elses political opinions in.

* The face Yoda made before he started fighting. Dumb!

* Lack of Jar Jar. You got the distinct impression that Lucas *loved* Jar Jar... he was so excited about this fully digital character and how it'd appeal to kids and what-not. Not having Jar Jar just seems like he gave in.

* There wasn't really a story. Every other Star Wars has a self contained story... this one was kind of just a bunch of things that happened.

* Various Padme-related weirdness. The scene where she falls out of the helicopter thing and is just fine... and when her mid-rift is magically exposed.
 
Originally posted by Frosty
Well we don't know that. As I've tried to illustrate several times already, it's pretty obvious that the clones, which serve Palpatine, will eventually become enemies of the Jedi.

So it's totally reasonable to continue assuming that the Jedi will have to defend the Republic from Clones, which they will obviously fail to do.

Actually, its not.
The Jedi are the 'Guardians of Order' in the Republic, and the enemies of the Sith. The head of the Republic is shortly going to proclaim himself Emperor, and reveal that he's a dark lord of the Sith (not necessarily to everyone, but enough people will be aware of it). My guess is that Palpatine will find an excuse to purge the Jedi in the name of keeping order in the Republic (especially considering that otherwise, the Jedi would do their best to kill him). The clones will eventually be replaced by living humans, who will become the stormtroopers we're all familiar with, but I don't think they'll be replaced due to a threat they pose to the Republic. I suspect that the reason for replacing the clones will be due to the uneasiness that the Republic appears to feel toward clones (hinted at). Palpatine will probably also be a little concerned about someone repeating the stunt he pulled (i.e. pulling a clone army out of thin air), and I'd be surprised if the Kamino survived the creation of the Empire.
Guesses as to what's in the next movie -
The Jedi are purged by Palpatine, Dooku, and possibly Vader
The Jedi are ALL killed, except Obi-Wan and Yoda (people are going to be very upset when Mace Windu dies)
Palpatine declares himself Emperor, and certain individuals discover his identity as a dark lord of the Sith.
The clone army becomes transformed into the familiar stormtroopers, and the age-old question of what exactly strormtroopers are is finally answered (droids? clones? regular humans? probably the latter, but I've seen debates over all three).
Bail Organa (guy with the goatee who's never identified in the movie - on the balcony with Palpatine at the end) and Palpatine have a falling out.
Obi-Wan takes Luke, and is spotted by Vader. Padme takes Leia, and is not spotted by Vader. Former goes to Tattooine with Owen and Beru, the latter goes to Alderaan with Bail Organa.

One last thing - IF the Republic goes about phasing out the clones in the wrong way, THEN there might be a clone revolt. But I doubt Lucas is going to have senators advocating mass genocide of the clones in the next film.
 
Originally posted by Frosty
Well I'm just dying to hear why not.You make it sound like they aren't.

You say its almost guaranteed that the Jedi will have to defend the Republic from the clones. I think I made a pretty good argument for why the Republic (as represented by Palpatine) might turn on the Jedi.

SO QUIT DYING!!!!
:D

Originally posted by Frosty
You make it sound like they aren't.

Sorry. Screwed up choice of words on my part. That should have read that the clones would be replaced by 'normal' (i.e. non-cloned) humans, not 'living' humans.
 
Originally posted by junior
I think I made a pretty good argument for why the Republic (as represented by Palpatine) might turn on the Jedi.
OK, I get what you're saying, but here's the problem:

Palpatine, right now, is seen by the Senate and the Jedi, the Republic as a whole, really, as the Supreme Chancellor, not the Emporer, and the formation of the Empire isn't complete.

In order to convert the Republic, he has to do things like declare martial law and send garrison forces to the many worlds of the Republic to subdue would-be resistance.

When Yoda said that that Clone Wars had begun, he meant that the Clones would fight the separatists and the Trade Federation. Once they've obliterated that enemy, and they will easily do so, since Palpatine had designed them to be an excuse, rather than a true threat, from the beginning, they'll begin to consolidate Palpatine's new Empire. The Jedi will have to defend the Republic from being subverted, and of course they will ultimately fail.

This will result in most of the Jedi being slain, except for a small number which go into hiding (of these we only know Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi.)

So while you're right that Palpatine will try to purge the Jedi, your perspective is skewed. Palpatine doesn't represent the Republic, the Jedi do, and the Clones, which serve them now, will become the enemy.
 
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