Some sunshine & a few general questions...

[Bandit LOAF]

Like in SO the virus. THe Nephilim probably studies humans and realized that we are curois by nature

The virus would have existed before their contact with humans - it was generated by the drive units of destroyed alien ships from the 'first' attack. It either exists intentionally to keep people from salvaging Nephilim ships or it's just a natural side effect of their decaying drives that happens to kill humans.

(1) What if the Prophecy IS in fact true, but the Nephilim are not the race being referred to in it? Granted, they did wormhole their way into Kilrah of all sectors, but also consider this:

(a) if the whole purpose of the Star Gods is to wipe out the Kilrathi for failing and their enemy for defeating them, then why not just send out that attack force right at the war's end? Why wait a decade (or however long it was)?

(b) why not show up in full force? Granted, the wormhole was being solidified for passage of probably a much larger force, and the Midway's timely intervention cut them off. But think about this - if the Nephilim are the realization of the prophecy, how would they know that the Kilrathi failed and/or that Kilrah was destroyed? Or actually wait...I'm having a thought here:

What if the Nephilim didn't KNOW the Kilrathi failed? You said the Prophecy had two spins on it - Kn'Thrak and the alternative (T'Thrak or whatever, which I guess is the challenge the cats would face if they had been victorious and their Star Gods came again to finally face them in combat). So I guess a good argument that would make sense would be that the Star Gods simply did return as promised, and only found out after the fact that the Kilrathi were, in fact, defeated. This would explain the recon force that came through first. Because think about it - if it were the other way, if the Star Gods/Nephilim KNEW the Kilrathi were defeated, that would imply they'd been monitoring them all along...so why wouldn't they know the kind of force they'd be up against and just blitz them full-force? Instead, they're more tentative in coming through the wormhole, it seems.

That's certainly a reasonable claim (Nephilim in the dark). They might not have discovered Kilrah's destruction until after they arrived in the Kilrah System (the ad copy back in the day claimed that it was what drew their attention in the first place - but that could work either way).

I'm not really buying the 'too small a force to start with' issue in any event, though. I've never really liked the idea that the initial attack was referred to as a 'recon squadron' in the first place - it was half a dozen carrier groups, a huge dreadnought and two giant plasma weapons. No military will commit 100% of its force to a conflict under any circumstances... so "they had more ships" and even "they used more ships later" doesn't strike me as a valid complaint. How many carrier groups are deployed to the Persian Gulf right now? Certainly not all (ten?).

(2) The Kn'Thrak spelled in blood on the deck of the ship is neither here, nor there, so this is really not an essential argument. You're right - Hawk told Casey right after that mission that the marines found the cats ripped up into little chunks. But whose to say that a cat didn't write it before being sliced and diced?

It's one of those things that is, on one hand, very possible... but on the other hand unlikely given the circumstances/intent of the situation. It's a given that the Kilrathi would have access to Kilrathi blood... but on the other hand, it certainly seems in this situation that the source for such blood would be the slicing and dicing itself.

How would the Nephilim know the Kilrathi word and how to spell it? The Prophecy was written after they left, right? If we're going under the assumption that the Star Gods left all that time ago and have only now returned, even IF they knew of the Prophecy back then, how would they know how it translated over the years? Case in point - religious texts. These things are translated into numerous other languages. You take the story of Judgement Day....if aliens came down and wrote "Judgement Day," it would freak us out. But it wasn't originally called "Judgement Day"...there was probably a Latin, Aramaic, or some other ancient language tongue that this was translated from, yet today we don't know it by its ancient language translation0. But if the aliens knew that word, wouldn't that be the word they would write? And why would that hold any meaning to any of us since most of us aren't well versed in ancient languages? Now maybe we're to assume that the Kilrathi language didn't evolve or have different dialects over the millenia? I don't know how much sense that would make, but I guess that could be the case....dunno. What are your thoughts?

It's a well thought out argument - but the rapid translation has never really been a problem in the Wing Commander universe. The Midway's science division managed to translate the Nephilim language in the space of a single mission... and the Nephilim had been in Kilrathi space for seven days before they took out the cruiser. (So, again, could have happened either way, but I don't think the language barrier is an issue that'll negate any particular situation.)

I'm all about trying to stick to the story as best as I can, and I plan to honor that as I go. I'm only trying to get a feel for what everyone else thinks as far as things. Again, I'm not saying the Prophecy ISN'T true...all I'm saying is that the Nephilim might not be the Star Gods of the Prophecy.

Worth pointing out that the Nephilim/Star Gods situation is one of several instances of the Kilrathi adapting their religion/mythology to create a justification for fighting 'real' enemies. They treated the potential return of the Mantu in a manner similar to the Nephilim... and in the Wing Commander IV novel we see that they've already formed a cult focused on the idea that Blair's attack on Kilrah was to 'cleanse' their species.

Also, the bugs brought many of Blair's memories of the past back to haunt him. Granted, one thing they discovered was the destruction of Kilrah, but that wasn't all...they also found out about Angel, Tolwyn, and other things. It seemed to me like they were more just fascinated with what makes a person tick rather than anything significant. Maybe this whole thing was a psycho-analysis of the human species - to try and find out what made us so resilient and tough so that we'd be easier to break in the war ahead, as well as to know how we think, the way we draw conclusions, etc. That'd be the best weapon to have against someone, wouldn't it? If you knew the mind of your enemy, you would know his strengths and his weaknesses, what he was going to do, etc.

Blair's explanation seems a bit more sinister than an ordinary interrogation:


Casey: Well, at least they didn't slice you and dice you.
Blair: No. But they cut into my mind, though. Deeply. They dredged up memories: Telamon, Admiral Tolwyn, the destruction of Kilrah, Angel. Everything I ever hoped to forget. And I relived every moment. And then they let you find me. Oh, they are fascinated by us, Casey. Our ability to kill without remorse, without pity. Our darker nature.
Casey: But, who are they?
Blair: Death.


There's also clearly an interest (and respect) in Blair specifically, making sure to capture him (and then return him) and interrogate him. From his interrogation:


Blair: Who are you?
Warlord: You have killed many!
Blair: What do you want?
Warlord: YOU!


And then there's various taunts about Kilrah ("Prove yourselves, world killers!" and "I shall slay even the World Killer himself!")

I also question whether the Kilrathi were simply just slaughtered off by the bugs. I don't remember any Dula 7 sequence that mentioned the cats were being killed off left and right...I only remember there being like 2 or 3 prisoners (including Blair) who were "liberated." I know Finley spoke to Casey at one point, saying that she was in communication with the Kilrathi somewhere, but she said she had since lost all communication with them. Casey thought she was implying they had been killed, but Finley corrects him and says that it's more just simply that they're no longer there, and that it was known that the bugs took a great many prisoners - thousands, I believe she says. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, this implies to me that the Nephilim are interested in the Kilrathi for something more than just slaughter. Casey says that it's almost like they're being consumed or devoured (I forget the wording - it's been awhile) like in the Kilrathi Prophecy, or something to that effect (yeah yeah, again...I know, this points out that the Nephilim may in fact be the Star Gods). But my point here, is that regardless what the Nephilim are, it seemed like they were doing more than simply killing all life left and right. While that might be their ultimate aim, it's almost as though they first wish to harvest and dissect their prey...perhaps it's to glean all the knowledge they can from races prior to eliminating them? That way, they would be even stronger....and hey, that could work too...

Only one prisoner was found alive on Dula 7 (Blair).

Here's Finley's conversation with Casey:


Finley: Now that we found a way to cut through the Alien jamming, we finally made contact with the Cats on E'Loy.
Casey: And?
Finley: And, what I found was very strange. It seems that after the capitol city of E'Loy was attacked and destroyed, most of the Kilrathi disappeared.
Casey: Disappeared? You mean, were killed.
Finley: No, I mean disappeared. Apparently, the aliens took a great many prisoners. Thousands. The few who remained sent me a data bundle on the alien craft. I'm processing that now but...
Casey: But what?
Finley: As soon as I uploaded the data, I lost all contact with the Kilrathi. All the systems checked out. They're just not there. It's almost as if...
Casey: As if, the E'loy had been consumed, like in the Kilrathi prophecy.

The Star Gods wanted the Kilrathi to battle as many races as they could to attain a level of supremacy. Perhaps the Nephilim themselves have conquered a great many races during their time and have forced the hand of other races to be as violently confrontational as the Kilrathi all with the idea of having there be only one race at the end with the knowledge gleaned from every sentient race of the universe.

Whoa...what do you think about that idea? Or am I TOTALLY flying off on a tangent here?

I think that's fairly close to what the original intent behind the Nephilim may have been (with their representing some sort of 'Aligned People' - possibly made up of races they've tested and found worthy).

Another spin on Prophecy: the Lost Fiction.

 

[X_FIREFALCON]

And a few more questions to rattle off here...

Hey again, fellas.

Thanks again for the responses. Powell99, thanks again for the praise. LOAF, thanks as always for all the historical details. I've taken some time to look at the universe map to make some sense out of the things you've said, and I think it all makes sense to me now. I've just got a couple more questions I'm hoping you or someone else here could also help me with:

(1) It seems most of the battles against the Kilrathi in the game were fought towards the center parts of the starmap, which makes sense. Is there any mention of great battles going on around a different part of the map, like maybe around Astoria in the Tr'k H'hra Sector? Or are there any details ever given of Astoria regarding planets or anything?

(2) Unfortunately, I'm not clear on some of these different groups on the map. I think I have at least a basic understanding now of the Confederation, the Kilrathi, the Border Worlds, and even (to some extent) the Firekkans as I've recently played through WC1:SM2. Could anyone give me a brief explanation and governing bodies of the other groups that appear on the starmap? I'm also curious what governing body looks after the Firekkan Planetary Alliance as well (not sure if this is ever really gone into detail in WC1:SM2). These are more just for a point of reference and curiosity...I don't really plan on having any of these be essential to the storyline I'm working on.

(3) What exactly is the reference to "Telemon" as it applies to Blair? I don't recall that in any of the games I've played (granted, I've only played WC1, WC2, and WCP).

Thanks again, in advance, for your replies, guys.

Oh...looks like LOAF just added to the post; I'll have to take a look into some of the things you've said regarding the Nephilim, LOAF. Interesting stuff. It's been awhile since I've played Prophecy, so I'm hazy on the details; thanks in advance for the refresher.

- FireFalcon ~};^

 

[Bandit LOAF]

(1) It seems most of the battles against the Kilrathi in the game were fought towards the center parts of the starmap, which makes sense. Is there any mention of great battles going on around a different part of the map, like maybe around Astoria in the Tr'k H'hra Sector? Or are there any details ever given of Astoria regarding planets or anything?

There are certainly references to battles that go on throughout the map... and there *was* a famous battle in the Astoria System -- but we don't know anything about it. When Blair meets Hawk in Wing Commander IV he recognizes his name as being someone who'd achieved some manner of distinction there (Panther points out that she had also served at Astoria).

(2) Unfortunately, I'm not clear on some of these different groups on the map. I think I have at least a basic understanding now of the Confederation, the Kilrathi, the Border Worlds, and even (to some extent) the Firekkans as I've recently played through WC1:SM2. Could anyone give me a brief explanation and governing bodies of the other groups that appear on the starmap? I'm also curious what governing body looks after the Firekkan Planetary Alliance as well (not sure if this is ever really gone into detail in WC1:SM2). These are more just for a point of reference and curiosity...I don't really plan on having any of these be essential to the storyline I'm working on.

The Firekkans were members of the Confederation until 2668, when they broke away after refusing to accept the armistice agreement with the Kilrathi (the 'false peace' from Fleet Action). So, they're their own... birds... now.

The Free Republic of the Landreich is a breakaway group of human colonies. Their system of government is technically similar to the Confederation (elected president, single body legislator). The only significant difference is that they're more of a 'spit and glue' 'frontier spirit' sort of an group - less rules/regulations/formalities/etc than the Confederation... though that seems to be changing circa 2672.

The Grovsner Colonies are another human offshoot that's referenced only briefly in Fleet Action. There aren't really any details.

The Tri-System is the independent area of space where Privateer 2 takes place; it doesn't have any contact with the rest of the Wing Commander universe (and any stories told there in Privateer 2 are a hundred years after WCP, anyway). Government seems to be similar to the Confederation, with senators and such being referenced.

Oasis is a planet from Wing Commander Academy that had declared itself neutral from the Terran/Kilrathi conflict. It's got... rhino... looking... alien things.

(3) What exactly is the reference to "Telemon" as it applies to Blair? I don't recall that in any of the games I've played (granted, I've only played WC1, WC2, and WCP).

In Wing Commander IV the 'Black Lance' used Telemon as the test site for their gen-select bio-weapon - killed 90% of the population in a particularly gruesome fashion. Blair lead the first team to arrive on the scene after the attack.

Oh...looks like LOAF just added to the post; I'll have to take a look into some of the things you've said regarding the Nephilim, LOAF. Interesting stuff. It's been awhile since I've played Prophecy, so I'm hazy on the details; thanks in advance for the refresher.

Yeah, sorry - 12,000 character limit or somesuch prevented me from posting everything at once.

Another resource - here's the HTML-ish Prophecy dialogue script that I did up for Raylight's GBA port of the game: https://www.wcnews.com/loaf/prophecy/

 

[X_FIREFALCON]

Heh

No problem, LOAF.

Thanks again for everything.

Just a couple quick notes here:

The one scene where the bugs are "interrogating" Blair is when Casey is kind of drifting off as Finley's dipping a tea bag into her cup of hot water. Not to be a pain in the butt, but are we sure that this actually happened, or could this just have been Casey's imagination getting the better of him after days of sleep deprivation for screwing up and letting the bugs abduct Blair? More like a guilty conscience trying to fathom what might be happening to Blair than what actually did. It probably doesn't matter one way or the other, but I'm just trying to distinguish things a bit. What are your thoughts on this?

Also, a slight technicality here - I was under the impression that the Midway science team had practically no clue how to break the language barrier of the Nephilim. Maybe I misunderstood at some point, but I thought that it was the bugs who broke our language barrier. And if I'm wrong and it didn't happen that way...wouldn't it have been cooler if it did? Also, I think later on, Finley breaks some kind of encoded transmission from the bugs and is able to translate part of their message...so maybe you're right - maybe we did break the language barrier? Eh, I dunno. Please clue me in.

Thanks for the information regarding Astoria and Pokemon - errr Telemon. Very helpful. It'll be awhile before I make it to Wing Commander 4 (I'm playing through the games in order), so it would have been awhile before I knew anything about that.

And thanks for all the background information on all the different groups as well, LOAF; looks like I already know about all the essentials, and these other groups are not quite anywhere NEAR as interesting.

I'm not sure what to make of the fiction article you directed me towards, though. I mean, though it seems intriguing to think that bugs were only interested in locating an artifact seems nifty, the number one question that comes to mind is - what artifact or object are they referring to? Follow up questions might include: why make a permanent wormhole if you're only interested in being there temporarily? Does this mean that the Nephilim aren't the Star Gods the Kilrathi make them out to be then, because it sounds like any interest they have in the Kilrathi is kinda tertiary to their interest in humanity which is secondary to their interest in this artifact or object; and additionally, we're led to believe that the bugs found what they were looking for, right? So why did three more wormholes appear in that other article you directed me to? What are your thoughts?

I also hear you about the Kilrathi kind of twisting their religion in hindsight to explain something that is happening - whether it be an enemy they're fighting or whatever. While their might be a shred of truth to it, though, maybe Hawk put it best - they're religious zealots. Maybe there's some truth to it, but the cats are taking things out of context and making the Nephilim out to be their Star Gods when, in fact, the bugs could be something else (perhaps even more sinister).

Well, I'm interested in your thoughts as well as everyone else's.

Also, regarding the Nephilim virus...how exactly did the Confederation control the spread of it? Using some kinda iron-maiden like needle administrator thing and injecting it around the infected area? And do we ever hear in any great detail what this virus is, what it does, etc.? And do you think the Nephilim specifically planned it this way (maybe it's equally toxic to the Kilrathi and the other races)? Maybe it's just a failsafe to make sure their technology never falls into enemy hands or something? Or maybe it has something to do with further experimentation and dissection of the races? You know...it could be like some kinda Zerg-like infection from Starcraft, and the bugs could be like semi-psychic or something. Yeah, I know that last part's a stretch...but what are your thoughts?

- FireFalcon ~};^

 

[Dyret]

I'm not really buying the 'too small a force to start with' issue in any event, though. I've never really liked the idea that the initial attack was referred to as a 'recon squadron' in the first place - it was half a dozen carrier groups, a huge dreadnought and two giant plasma weapons. No military will commit 100% of its force to a conflict under any circumstances... so "they had more ships" and even "they used more ships later" doesn't strike me as a valid complaint. How many carrier groups are deployed to the Persian Gulf right now? Certainly not all (ten?).

It's quite possible that the nephilim is figthing wars in their own part of the galaxy as well. That could explain why they didnt send more ships. I mean, i race like the nephilim cant be very popular.

 

[X_FIREFALCON]

And a couple map questions...

I also have a couple starmap questions, if you guys would be so kind:

(1) What is a "Charybdis Capable System?"

(2) There's the Scylla jump which I guess Blair makes in the movie while piloting the Diligent. Then I guess there's the Pulsar jump Taggart makes at the helm of the Tiger's Claw. But towards the end, doesn't Blair make a jump from Vega back into Sol? Not sure if that was a Quasar jump or some kinda temporary thing, or what. Could I just get a clarification on that?

(3) There are some interesting systems on the starmap - "Black Hole System 299," "42-99 Beta," "M421A," "XXN-1927," and so on and so forth. Are these just systems that are never mentioned, or are there reasons they're given a code designation as opposed to an actual name? And the black hole system sounds fairly interesting...is that kinda like how I'm imagining it - a system of black holes? Sorry for being such a rookie at this, but I don't think any of the games stumble on these systems, so that's why I'm curious. I'm also not planning on having any of these in my story...just wondering about them is all.

[adding this following part in an edit]

(4) Totally unrelated to the starmap...when the Nephilim refer to 'Aligned People' or whatever...does that simply mean kindred warriors like they themselves are? I mean, this doesn't suggest the bugs are in an alliance with any other race(s), right? Don't they refer to humanity as 'aligned?' What exactly does this mean? Our violent tendencies and nature are similar to theirs or something?

(5) The Persian Gulf is probably a little different than Wing Commander (yeah, just a little bit). I mean...most of the fighting going on in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. seems to primarily be ground forces with maybe a few A-10s or Apaches involved. So there's probably not a huge need for aircraft carriers in such a conflict that probably depends more on army and air force than navy. But I definitely get what you're saying about the Nephilim not sending everything they had at the Kilrathi and the Confederation. It's just that when I envision insects, hives, etc...I envision thousands or millions of times more numerous than humanity, so I question why they'd send so small a strike force when (at least in my vision of the Nephilim), they probably could've committed a much more sizeable force, and it's implied a more numerous, perhaps even overwhelming force is enroute when the Kilrah wormgate is destroyed. I guess I'm just wondering why they didn't send those ships through sooner... (and using the whole "well, then the game would've been over sooner and the Confederation would've been crushed" excuse won't cut it!)

- FireFalcon ~};^

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The one scene where the bugs are "interrogating" Blair is when Casey is kind of drifting off as Finley's dipping a tea bag into her cup of hot water. Not to be a pain in the butt, but are we sure that this actually happened, or could this just have been Casey's imagination getting the better of him after days of sleep deprivation for screwing up and letting the bugs abduct Blair? More like a guilty conscience trying to fathom what might be happening to Blair than what actually did. It probably doesn't matter one way or the other, but I'm just trying to distinguish things a bit. What are your thoughts on this?

I've always taken it as showing what's "really" happening to Blair while Casey is worrying about him - because Casey doesn't know Blair is being interrogated and because Casey hasn't (IIRC) actually seen a Warlord yet.

Also, a slight technicality here - I was under the impression that the Midway science team had practically no clue how to break the language barrier of the Nephilim. Maybe I misunderstood at some point, but I thought that it was the bugs who broke our language barrier. And if I'm wrong and it didn't happen that way...wouldn't it have been cooler if it did? Also, I think later on, Finley breaks some kind of encoded transmission from the bugs and is able to translate part of their message...so maybe you're right - maybe we did break the language barrier? Eh, I dunno. Please clue me in.

I'm pretty sure it's Finley and company who learn to translate the Nephilim language. The Nephilim start talking to us in their own language (you get an 'unable to translate' message) in the second mission, and Maestro feeds it through to Finley to decipher.

I'm not sure what to make of the fiction article you directed me towards, though. I mean, though it seems intriguing to think that bugs were only interested in locating an artifact seems nifty, the number one question that comes to mind is - what artifact or object are they referring to? Follow up questions might include: why make a permanent wormhole if you're only interested in being there temporarily? Does this mean that the Nephilim aren't the Star Gods the Kilrathi make them out to be then, because it sounds like any interest they have in the Kilrathi is kinda tertiary to their interest in humanity which is secondary to their interest in this artifact or object; and additionally, we're led to believe that the bugs found what they were looking for, right? So why did three more wormholes appear in that other article you directed me to? What are your thoughts?

IIRC, that fiction was part of the background written for Strike Team, the cancelled sequel to Secret Ops... Boomer posted it to alt.games.wing-commander by mistake some years ago. (As for what they're looking for - the only reasonable guess I've ever been able to make is Blair... but there's some logical problems there, too.)

Also, regarding the Nephilim virus...how exactly did the Confederation control the spread of it? Using some kinda iron-maiden like needle administrator thing and injecting it around the infected area? And do we ever hear in any great detail what this virus is, what it does, etc.? And do you think the Nephilim specifically planned it this way (maybe it's equally toxic to the Kilrathi and the other races)? Maybe it's just a failsafe to make sure their technology never falls into enemy hands or something? Or maybe it has something to do with further experimentation and dissection of the races? You know...it could be like some kinda Zerg-like infection from Starcraft, and the bugs could be like semi-psychic or something. Yeah, I know that last part's a stretch...but what are your thoughts?

It wouldn't be planned specifically for humans, since it 'comes from' the ships that arrived before they'd encountered humans. It's either just a natural effect of decaying Nephilim drive units, or something designed specifically to keep all sorts of life forms away from their crippled ships.

(The virus just plain kills people, IIRC - and we don't find anything else about Confed's cure after the iron-maiden device you mentioned.)

(1) What is a "Charybdis Capable System?"

A system you can reach from the Charybdis Quasar (seen in the movie). The quasar is located in the Dakota System, and any jump made from it is a one way affair.

(2) There's the Scylla jump which I guess Blair makes in the movie while piloting the Diligent. Then I guess there's the Pulsar jump Taggart makes at the helm of the Tiger's Claw. But towards the end, doesn't Blair make a jump from Vega back into Sol? Not sure if that was a Quasar jump or some kinda temporary thing, or what. Could I just get a clarification on that?

You just answered question #1 without knowing it.

(3) There are some interesting systems on the starmap - "Black Hole System 299," "42-99 Beta," "M421A," "XXN-1927," and so on and so forth. Are these just systems that are never mentioned, or are there reasons they're given a code designation as opposed to an actual name? And the black hole system sounds fairly interesting...is that kinda like how I'm imagining it - a system of black holes? Sorry for being such a rookie at this, but I don't think any of the games stumble on these systems, so that's why I'm curious. I'm also not planning on having any of these in my story...just wondering about them is all.

They're generally systems that are still being explored (or were discovered and deemed not worthy of any further use). (XXN-1927 is the exception - it's named fater a real star catalogue ID).

In the case of Black Hole System 299, it's a system that is a black hole (... with a Kilrathi smuggler outpost at its edge).

(4) Totally unrelated to the starmap...when the Nephilim refer to 'Aligned People' or whatever...does that simply mean kindred warriors like they themselves are? I mean, this doesn't suggest the bugs are in an alliance with any other race(s), right? Don't they refer to humanity as 'aligned?' What exactly does this mean? Our violent tendencies and nature are similar to theirs or something?

The Nephilim refer to thesmelves as being the 'Aligned People' and humans as being 'unaligned' in the taunt dialogues.

(5) The Persian Gulf is probably a little different than Wing Commander (yeah, just a little bit). I mean...most of the fighting going on in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. seems to primarily be ground forces with maybe a few A-10s or Apaches involved. So there's probably not a huge need for aircraft carriers in such a conflict that probably depends more on army and air force than navy. But I definitely get what you're saying about the Nephilim not sending everything they had at the Kilrathi and the Confederation. It's just that when I envision insects, hives, etc...I envision thousands or millions of times more numerous than humanity, so I question why they'd send so small a strike force when (at least in my vision of the Nephilim), they probably could've committed a much more sizeable force, and it's implied a more numerous, perhaps even overwhelming force is enroute when the Kilrah wormgate is destroyed. I guess I'm just wondering why they didn't send those ships through sooner... (and using the whole "well, then the game would've been over sooner and the Confederation would've been crushed" excuse won't cut it!)

Carrier-based aircraft played a big role in the opening of both Gulf Wars... I'm sure one of the Navy historian guys could give you the actual details of what was deployed, but I'm thinking it was two or three carrier groups (Haesslich IM'd me earlier to tell me that the US has 11 carrier groups - but that the most that are ever deployed at once are 7).

(There was a larger force on the other side - it's mentioned in the official guide, IIRC. As best we can tell, though, they're moving things in consistently... with the dreadnought arriving in a midgame sequence.)

 

[Moonsword]

Carrier-based aircraft performed a lot of different roles in both Gulf War operations, not just opening strikes. Part of it was fleet air cover (primarily Tomcats in Desert storm) but also a number of them also dropped bombs, including smart weapons. Most of their operations were in either southern Iraq or Kuwait, since that was closer.

And we have 12 carrier groups, not 11 (verified from Navy's own website).

 

[SabreAce]

I'm pretty sure it's Finley and company who learn to translate the Nephilim language. The Nephilim start talking to us in their own language (you get an 'unable to translate' message) in the second mission, and Maestro feeds it through to Finley to decipher.

In the last mission of the H'hrekkah system:

Nephilim: Your test is at hand!
Zero: Looks like these boys learned our language quick enough.
Nephilim: Death is awaiting you!
Maestro: I think I liked it better when I didn’t understand them.

That would seem to imply it's the Nephilim who crack the language barrier, not Finley. Also, throughout Prophecy and Secret Ops, there are times where, instead of "I am destroyed", "I go into the blackness", etc. when a Nephilim ship is destroyed, an 'unable to translate' is shown instead. To me, this suggests that the bugs forget about taunting us in English, and drop back to their own language...a language the Confed ships can't translate.

 

[Capn Johnny]

First.. my apologies.. I tried to read the whole thread, but in truth, ended up skimming most of it..

The Bugs are the Star Gods (or were "agents" of theirs). We never quite decided. It was to be developed further in the 2 following games of the original trilogy (named, predictably: Revelation(s) and Redemption). But, of course, we never got that far..

Steltek Win. Hands down, no question. (but they might have had "evil" counterparts of their own out there.. somewhere.. )

Nephilim Space.. heh.. actually we were thinking of something much like the "Fluidic space" seen in Voyager.. but decided it might be best just to leave it alone after those episodes were shown.. best to leave it as an unknown than to be called copy-cats.. (no kilrathi pun intended)..

-J

 

[Haesslich]

Carrier-based aircraft performed a lot of different roles in both Gulf War operations, not just opening strikes. Part of it was fleet air cover (primarily Tomcats in Desert storm) but also a number of them also dropped bombs, including smart weapons. Most of their operations were in either southern Iraq or Kuwait, since that was closer.

And we have 12 carrier groups, not 11 (verified from Navy's own website).

\

12 groups in total, but Kitty Hawk's a non-nuclear carrier and the Eisenhower's reactor was pulled in 2001 while she underwent refuelling and refitting. She's going to be in drydock till year's end, so I didn't counter her as being an active carrier group... as she's not been active for several years.

Until that refit's done, there are only 11 deployable units. Lincoln, Roosevelt, and Nimitz are in the yards for maintenance, and Enterprise just got back from deployment. Only the Reagan, Kennedy, Stennis, and Washington are deployed, with Kitty Hawk and Enterprise being deployable... or rather, they HAVE been deployed for Summer Pulse 2004. There are seven carrier groups now out on exercise.

 

[Joker057]

I'd like to add as well that one may visit XXN-1927 located in the Gemini Sector while playing Privateer. Also isnt there a pleasure base or a mining base there? I can't recall.

 

[Dundradal]

First.. my apologies.. I tried to read the whole thread, but in truth, ended up skimming most of it..

The Bugs are the Star Gods (or were "agents" of theirs). We never quite decided. It was to be developed further in the 2 following games of the original trilogy (named, predictably: Revelation(s) and Redemption). But, of course, we never got that far..

Steltek Win. Hands down, no question. (but they might have had "evil" counterparts of their own out there.. somewhere.. )

Nephilim Space.. heh.. actually we were thinking of something much like the "Fluidic space" seen in Voyager.. but decided it might be best just to leave it alone after those episodes were shown.. best to leave it as an unknown than to be called copy-cats.. (no kilrathi pun intended)..

-J

Interesting stuff there Johnny.

Sounds like you guys were also kind of thinking of the idea of Thirdspace from B5. When I first saw that movie, I noticed that the thirdspace fighters looked a lot like nephilim fighters.

Quote:


(1) It seems most of the battles against the Kilrathi in the game were fought towards the center parts of the starmap, which makes sense. Is there any mention of great battles going on around a different part of the map, like maybe around Astoria in the Tr'k H'hra Sector? Or are there any details ever given of Astoria regarding planets or anything?

There are certainly references to battles that go on throughout the map... and there *was* a famous battle in the Astoria System -- but we don't know anything about it. When Blair meets Hawk in Wing Commander IV he recognizes his name as being someone who'd achieved some manner of distinction there (Panther points out that she had also served at Astoria).

Thinking of a few others, Vukar Tag takes place way the hell out of the way. Also the running battle the Tarawa and Normandy (?) had after discovering the Hakaga fleet. The Tarawa Kilrah run which brought it through many different imperial systems and the last system they were in when the Concordia came to the rescue.

EDIT: Just thought of a few others, The battle of hellhole (there were several in the system), Karga raid into landreich, and the pre-war McAuliffe battles in the Facin sector....

It would be nice if one day we could have a lot of the emptier war years (late 30s into the 40s) filled with stuff about what was happening (granted we know about mcauliffe and custer's carnival, but other large engagements must of gone on)

I'd also just like to say good job on starting a valid and exciting discussion FireFalcon, most new posters have been doing _____ vs _______ threads for the last few months. Glad to have a fresh look at some important WCU events and ideas.

 

[X_FIREFALCON]

Heya, guys...

Again, thanks for everything, guys.

Johnny, thanks for the information. In the storyline I'm envisioning (though yes, I realize it'll be unofficial fiction), there will be a small group that will be going into enemy Nephilim territory. One of the things that's been bugging me (heh...there's another pun for ya!) is that I'm not sure how I was planning on making Nephilim space - much the same problem you've mentioned. I was imagining something similar to fluidic space as you've mentioned, but I too am a tad concerned with making something a rip-off. But we'll see...I'm procrastinating here to the point that I haven't even started writing anything, so at this rate, nothing might wind up coming out of this anyway!

But seriously, guys...I appreciate all the feedback and information you've sent my way, including all the potential slants on various storylines and what-not.

Dundradal, thanks for your kind praise. Like I said - my mission is to try to understand the past and present WC Universe if I'm to write a story about its future, and you guys have been fantastic in helping to fill in the gaps. In truth, I have asked some Nephilim vs. everybody questions myself here, just to gauge where the bugs are in relation to everyone else so I can more accurately write a story, so I'm not much better than most of the newbies you fellas get to these forums. But hey, I'm trying. I'm just glad I was able to start a decent enough thread and found kindred thinkers out there eager to pick up the discussion!

You guys have all been great. One hell of a community you've got here! Thanks, fellas.

- FireFalcon ~};^

 

[Death]

I'd like to add as well that one may visit XXN-1927 located in the Gemini Sector while playing Privateer. Also isnt there a pleasure base or a mining base there? I can't recall.

XXN-1927 had a pleasure planet and a refinery. It's also where the plot for Righteous Fire (Priv add-on) starts, with the player hero (officially Grayson Burrows [from official ad copy for Priv, IIRC], informally "brownhair", not unlike Blair was known as "bluehair" before he was assigned an official name instead of just PlayerName) on the pleasure planet in that system, taking a vacation when... something happens. (won't spoil it for anyone who's not played RF yet... all 2 of you )

(Note: Additional information included for firehawk's benefit.)

 

[Moonsword]

Hasselich, wasn't aware the Eisenhower was in drydock. Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

 

[Haesslich]

Hasselich, wasn't aware the Eisenhower was in drydock. Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

The RCOH is supposed to be done this year, or at least that's the plan - the Eisenhower's website notes they're still trying to get the ship back into 'deployable shape' after the refitting and the refuelling. Thus, it wasn't counted as an active battle group, no more than a destroyed one would be considered active - can't be deployed, even in an emergency.

Kitty Hawk's also the last remaining diesel/distillate powered carrier in the Navy, IIRC. It was supposed to be slated for decomissioning when G. H. W. Bush came on in 2008. (Edit: Looks like they're keeping Kitty Hawk active till the end of the decade, at least according to the site.)


And regarding the periods of the war from 2655-2665, we don't get a lot of data on that, given that the period between SM2 and WC2 is left open and relatively undocumented. Perhaps the Astoria system action happened then?

 

[Ijuin]

Is the Bush a Nimitz class carrier? Come to think of it, are all the currently active fleet carriers except the Kitty Hawk Nimitz class?

 

[Moonsword]

No.

Enterprise is a unqiue design, a class of one ship, the world's first nuclear carrier. Kennedy is also a unique design, based on the Kitty Hawk class, IIRC, but like them, non-nuclear, and the ship that directly precedes the Nimitz class.

 

[Haesslich]

No.

Enterprise is a unqiue design, a class of one ship, the world's first nuclear carrier. Kennedy is also a unique design, based on the Kitty Hawk class, IIRC, but like them, non-nuclear, and the ship that directly precedes the Nimitz class.

Just double-checked. Kennedy is indeed non-nuclear. and I'd forgotten that. Doh. Kitty Hawk is, however, the last of her class and the oldest active carrier in the Navy.