Some sunshine & a few general questions...

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The "fiction." that LOAF gave you the link to was written by Origin, the creators of WC, so it is OFFICIAL “fiction”( hehe). However there are winning and loosing paths in it and there is nothing put out by Origin which says which path is the Official path like there is for WC 1-4.

I’m not sure where LOAF got his info on the Nephilim I’m interested in that too maybe it’s in the rest of the “fiction” I haven’t read

The Steltek age is mentioned in Privateer but it is an archeologist assumption. I don’t know how peaceful they are but they don’t want to advocate war especially by leaving their old equipment around. What there state is now would be purely assumption.

You really should read some of the books because they go into more detail about the Border worlds then you find anywhere else.
 
Oohhhhh! :)

Thanks, SabreAce...

I didn't realize that there were multiple endings to Special Ops. I guess I'm the fella that follows orders, flies his heart out, and doesn't realize there's more to the story if I just tried to deviate at some point just for the heck of it. :) Nor did I take the time back when to look online to search for such information. But thanks for pointing that one out. Here's a question, though...the gateway that the bugs were assembling in Kilrah...did that have an accretion device? Didn't look like it. Any reason that the bugs built this one differently? Is this ever explained?

And thanks for your reply, Shades. I hear you about the Border Worlds. I'm still fighting tooth and nail here because I really don't want to take the time to find, buy, and then cuddle up next to a Wing Commander book that's more than just a few brief random articles thrown on a page (much like the Kilrathi Saga manual is constructed). I mean, I want to write my own thing here, not read someone else's! ;) Ah well...just laziness on my part. I'll STILL consider it, but I'm reluctant to jump at the notion just yet. I mean, once I start down that path, it's only a matter of time before I'm dressing up in my own Confederation officer uniform with an official Kilrathi head insulating my noggin' and a tight Pilgrim cross hanging around my neck cutting off circulation and enlargening my already enormous cat head. :) And we don't want that, do we? What kind of example would that be to the community? :)

And "OFFICIAL 'fiction?'" That's like....real fiction, right? Give me awhile to contemplate that one... *his big cat head explodes* :)

But seriously, fellas - thanks for the replies. And yes, if LOAF (or anyone else) is able to clue me/us into the historical background knowledge base of the Nephilim, please do! I was under the impression that the Nephilim were mostly a complete mystery, but if there's any official indication of how long they've been around, the extent of power behind their technology, etc., pray do tell!

Respectfully,
FireFalcon ~};^
 
Actually some of the books deal very heavily with the Border Worlds. Like False Colors and Action Station. There is a decent amount in Fleet Action too. If you decide to read Fleet Action then you might as well read End Run because it happens before is VERY GOOD. in mhp :D
 
Viper61 said:
I think he may be going on about the missing laser cannons on the front canard of the Rapier. At best, its ambiguous from the model where this cannon is, but IIRC the damage screen shows it at the end/underneath/on top of the canard.

And welcome aboard FireFalcon!

C-ya
yep!
 
X_FIREFALCON said:
Thanks, SabreAce...

I didn't realize that there were multiple endings to Special Ops. I guess I'm the fella that follows orders, flies his heart out, and doesn't realize there's more to the story if I just tried to deviate at some point just for the heck of it. :) Nor did I take the time back when to look online to search for such information. But thanks for pointing that one out. Here's a question, though...the gateway that the bugs were assembling in Kilrah...did that have an accretion device? Didn't look like it. Any reason that the bugs built this one differently? Is this ever explained?
The Kilrah jumpgate was a wormhole forced open, then the gate structure was constructed around it to reinforce it as a permanent passage - up till then, the energy to open it and hold it open was massive (Finley mentions this at one point in Prophecy, I believe in T'lan Meth)

The Proxima jumpgate was constructed to use the energy of the twin stars to hold the wormhole open. This meant that while they would still have to use a massive amount of energy to open the rift initially, there would be 4.5 billion years of energy to draw out of the stars to keep it open.

As for the multiple endings of SO, there are 3.

Win-Win: Bugs destroyed, Wormhole captured
Win-Lose: Bugs destroyed, Wormhole destroyed (huge damage to Proxima system)
Lose-Lose: Bug fleet comes through the wormhole, and attacks Sol. In this ending, a little bit of humor sneaks in, since as the Nephilim fleet jumps in, Cerberus advises the pilots to find the little red pill under their O2 tank, and swallow it.
 
Now is this like "fiction" as in "hey, ALL of Wing Commander is fiction, buddy" or "fiction" as in "well, we played around with this idea...it's not necessarily official by any stretch of the imagination, but here's some of the stuff we came up with?" Or perhaps a better question - REGARDLESS, this is what we're taking to be the truth about Special Ops, right? Again, sorry for the incessant pestering - I'm just trying to be faithful to the storyline here.

Sorry, it's the former - 'fiction' as in 'Wing Commander is fictional'. It just happened to be what SecretOps.com called the weekly postings.

As for the Steltek (really wish I played Privateer so I had more of a clue!), they are in fact 3 billion years old, you said, right? I'm guessing this must've been indicated somewhere when we learn of their history in Privateer. As for the age of the Nephilim/bug race...is that ever clearly indicated somewhere, or is that just pretty much speculated based on where Confed is at and where the Steltek are theorized to be at? On a related note, just some things that are bugging me: if the Steltek are a peaceful race now, how can we be sure that their weaponry and technology has only improved over the years rather than atrophied due to less need for any of it? Additionally, is there any reason the Steltek find it easy to monitor all the space of their former empire rather than simply doing some kind of extensive scan themselves for the technology? I mean, for being so advanced, you'd think they could do a flawless job of picking up the place. Also, do we ever know what chunk of the Milky Way this empire once encompassed? Is it just Confederation space or way on the other side where the Nephilim are now too? Did it span the entire Milky Way or just parts? The questioning here about the Nephilim is beneficial to know for my own story....the Steltek stuff is just out of curiosity to see if any more information is given; I may or may not want to have some idea that piggybacks something in the history of the Steltek at some point (but probably not for the story I'm considering right now - this would be maybe further down the road).

The billion number for the Steltek does indeed come from Privateer - archaeologists studying their advanced ruins discovered on Mars find that they're 2.4 billion years old. There's several references to the Nephilim having been in space about as long as humans have been writing/literate... and it's pointed out in the ICIS manual that their technology really isn't significantly advanced from our own (they just seem to have a lot more of it).

The Steltek don't seem to be able to identify where their technology is until it's activated. They're able to identify and track the Drone only after it is accidentally trigged on by a missile hit. They only find and recover their derelict capital ship after the main character tells them where it is. The same Privateer article that gives the age of the Mars site claims that their civilization was "galaxy spanning".

did I read somewhere that the Accretion Device thingeemabob they tried to setup to maintain the Vega wormhole would have enabled the bugs to permanently keep open a wormhole to our space? Would that mean that once operational, the device would be indestructable? Does that mean it triggers some kind of self-sustaining permanent rift in space-time independent of this device and would never be able to shut? Or does it mean that the destruction of the device, even if operational, would result in the collapse of the wormhole? Perhaps I misread something and that's what's throwing me off. If possible, please set me back on track.

IIRC (and I'd probably have to check at home), the idea was that they had opened a normal wormhole and were building the accretion device to use Proxima's two suns to power it - had that happened, it would have been indistructable. The final mission of WCSO involves capturing the gate and destroying the command ship *before* the accretion device starts drawing power from the suns...

Also...the Kilrathi consider the Nephilim to be the Star Gods that basically paved the way for their expansionist, war-loving policy of galactic dominance from early on, but is there ever any evidence to support that the Nephilim are definitively these Star Gods? Could it be that there is another race of "Star Gods" out there, or that the whole thing is just a bunch of religious hoopla Sivar (or someone else) concocted to justify the naturally violent, animalistic instincts and tendencies of the Kilrathi species? Could it not be possible that the Nephilim just happened to pick uncanny timing for their incursion in Confed-Kilrathi space, and simply engaged both...without ever knowing a dang thing about this ancient Kilrathi Prophecy?

The latter isn't likely - in the first mission of WCP Confed Marines find that the Nephilim have slaughtered the crew of a Kilrathi cruiser and written "Kn’thrak" in their blood on the walls. If they're not the Star Gods, they're a race that's playing up the Star Gods story (which the ICIS manual heavily implies is 'real') to their advantage (their in-flight comms also make numerous references to the Kilrathi failing, to testing humans in the same manner and to an interest in Blair specifically because he'd destroyed Kilrah.)

(Most telling, of course, is that the entire 'star gods' portion of Kilrathi mythology was created specifically for its involvement in Prophecy... it's not a pre-existing aspect of their backstory that people happened to tie into the Nephilim story.)
 
[QUOTE=(Most telling, of course, is that the entire 'star gods' portion of Kilrathi mythology was created specifically for its involvement in Prophecy... it's not a pre-existing aspect of their backstory that people happened to tie into the Nephilim story.)

AH! That makes since. Never thought of it that way.


[QUOTE=There's several references to the Nephilim having been in space about as long as humans have been writing/literate...

Where is that? Is it in game or in the fiction?
 
I'm not sure if there is a direct reference, I'd say the proof of this is that they visited Earth and because the description/detailing of this event is so crude, it makes sense we had only just developed literacy.
 
Thanks yet again! :)

Thanks again, fellas.

LOAF, great commentary as always. The whole Sivar Prophecy wasn't even created until they decided to bring the Nephilim into the picture. Most of what I'm going to say is probably going to just be a stretch, but well...I'm not the overly religious type myself, so I'm trying to chew apart this Kilrathi hocus-pocus business and throw out an alternative view which I'm hoping you fellas might be able to shoot holes through with evidence against or lend credible merit to (if nothing "real" opposes it) after my speculative foray here. To add some more information & analyses to ponder:

(1) Even if the Prophecy was true and created specifically for the Nephilim story, there's nothing more than subtle hints given to suggest that the two correlate. It might be possible that the Nephilim are simply just playing mind games. If they held themselves up to be the realization of this prophecy, it would seriously put a damper on Kilrathi morale and spook the heck out of Confed.

(2) The marines found "Kn'Thrak" written in blood on the deck of the disabled cruiser (or whatever class ship) at the beginning of Prophecy. It's not said for sure that the Nephilim wrote it, though. I don't recall any mention of it having been scribbled multiple times. A dying Kilrathi could have been overly superstitious and written it in his own blood before dying. Could this not have been a possible alternative?

(3) Regarding the Nephilim's taunts of their supremacy and testing of both the Kilrathi and the Confederation...could this not have just been more about them playing mind games with their enemies? When Blair was abducted, they poked around his mind and uncovered all kinds of information from his past memories. Additionally, during their initial onslaught, the Nephilim took thousands of Kilrathi (I believe Finley mentions this to Casey at one point). Could they not have similarly dissected the minds of these Kilrathi to discover more about this alleged Prophecy so that they could act the role better?

There are two more intriguing arguments, though for both sides...and those are:

(1) Why in the hell would the Nephilim just magically appear in Kilrah of all sectors? This lends credence to the fact that they are the fulfillment of the prophecy. But then again, if they had some way of observing the universe (kind of like the Steltek), the cataclysmic destruction of Kilrah could have been something intriguing that drew their attention. Supporting this theory is what Finley says at one point in Prophecy - the intial Nephilim incursion into the Kilrah sector was merely a smaller force. If the Nephilim were initially serious about wiping the Kilrathi out from the face of existence, why didn't they just send a large assault force from the get-go? Why simply send a small expeditionary force to survey the area?

(2) Isn't the Kilrathi Prophecy about the end of everything? I was under the impression that the return of the Star Gods would basically mark the end of the Kilrathi and whatever species defeated them. If it's true that the Nephilim are basically on par with the Confederation in terms of technology, what's to suggest that the Nephilim are indeed this Star God threat if they are not technologically advanced enough to defeat the Confederation and the Kilrathi? Or is the argument that they would win by sheer numbers alone?

This whole Accretion Device thing still escapes me. I still can't comprehend how once this device is activated, the wormhole is completely indestructable. Does it create some kind of natural particle flow so that even if destroyed, the wormhole would still remain open? Theoretically, what if you destroyed the suns that maintained this power? What if you destroyed the device? What if you destroyed whatever was controlling the wormhole on the other side (i.e. the other end of the wormhole in Nephilim territory)?

Again, my apologies for being so nagging with these questions, guys. I'm just putting some ideas out there....asking if alternative things are possible, and pondering a couple of "what if's." I respect everyone's opinion here as well as your feedback, and I salute your vast knowledge of the Wing Commander Universe especially, LOAF. So please feel free to comment on what I've said above and let me know if I'm completely off basis or not. Again, I'll remind you that this is all just to develop some idea of where we're at and where we could yet head with the Nephilim race...additional knowledge in this subject matter would help me test the limits of the current storyline I have brewing in my head.

Thanks again for all your patience and replies, guys.

- FireFalcon ~};^
 
Okay, you make great points FireFalcon. I think the Accretion Device is like a Black Hole and/or it is different a wormholee because maybe (hear me out), instead of folding space time it rather uses the suns gravitational force to propel the ship. Of course what do I know? I guess I trying to say that we have it all wrong. The only time I've heard Accretion is in reference to a blackhole, which if these uses are related in any way It could be my idea of a catapult apposed to a wormhole.
 
X_FIREFALCON said:
This whole Accretion Device thing still escapes me. I still can't comprehend how once this device is activated, the wormhole is completely indestructable. Does it create some kind of natural particle flow so that even if destroyed, the wormhole would still remain open? Theoretically, what if you destroyed the suns that maintained this power? What if you destroyed the device? What if you destroyed whatever was controlling the wormhole on the other side (i.e. the other end of the wormhole in Nephilim territory)?

Given the supposed ecological destruction wrought in the win-lose ending where you defeat the Nephilim fleet yet fail to stop the Accretion Device in time, I think that it is not a matter of the wormhole being literally indestructible so much as it would be impossible to destroy it without causing massive backlash (such as the suns powering it going nova).
 
X_FIREFALCON said:
(...)
(1) Even if the Prophecy was true and created specifically for the Nephilim story, there's nothing more than subtle hints given to suggest that the two correlate. It might be possible that the Nephilim are simply just playing mind games. If they held themselves up to be the realization of this prophecy, it would seriously put a damper on Kilrathi morale and spook the heck out of Confed.

(2) The marines found "Kn'Thrak" written in blood on the deck of the disabled cruiser (or whatever class ship) at the beginning of Prophecy. It's not said for sure that the Nephilim wrote it, though. I don't recall any mention of it having been scribbled multiple times. A dying Kilrathi could have been overly superstitious and written it in his own blood before dying. Could this not have been a possible alternative?

(3) Regarding the Nephilim's taunts of their supremacy and testing of both the Kilrathi and the Confederation...could this not have just been more about them playing mind games with their enemies? When Blair was abducted, they poked around his mind and uncovered all kinds of information from his past memories. Additionally, during their initial onslaught, the Nephilim took thousands of Kilrathi (I believe Finley mentions this to Casey at one point). Could they not have similarly dissected the minds of these Kilrathi to discover more about this alleged Prophecy so that they could act the role better?

Hmm, that might be possible but I don't think it's very probable: the whole atmosphere and details in the game hints at the correlation of the Nephilims and Star Gods. If the Nephilim would only use the prophecy as a mean of psychological warfare they'd need to know the whole story and it seems unlikely to me that they learned all that in the short time during their initial attack. Blair gets abducted only after the Nephilim already use all those references to the prophecy (they taunt us starting with the second mission IIRC). Now, we do not know how many Kilrathi they already have abducted at this time and maybe they extracted all this prophecy stuff from their minds but it doesn't feel so. Why would the Nephilim attack in the Kilrah system - it's just too much coincidence for me.
But it might be only a trick used by the Nephilim - we don't know until the link is clearly and objectively given to us by an official source.

X_FIREFALCON said:
There are two more intriguing arguments, though for both sides...and those are:

(1) Why in the hell would the Nephilim just magically appear in Kilrah of all sectors? This lends credence to the fact that they are the fulfillment of the prophecy. But then again, if they had some way of observing the universe (kind of like the Steltek), the cataclysmic destruction of Kilrah could have been something intriguing that drew their attention. Supporting this theory is what Finley says at one point in Prophecy - the intial Nephilim incursion into the Kilrah sector was merely a smaller force. If the Nephilim were initially serious about wiping the Kilrathi out from the face of existence, why didn't they just send a large assault force from the get-go? Why simply send a small expeditionary force to survey the area?

(2) Isn't the Kilrathi Prophecy about the end of everything? I was under the impression that the return of the Star Gods would basically mark the end of the Kilrathi and whatever species defeated them. If it's true that the Nephilim are basically on par with the Confederation in terms of technology, what's to suggest that the Nephilim are indeed this Star God threat if they are not technologically advanced enough to defeat the Confederation and the Kilrathi? Or is the argument that they would win by sheer numbers alone?

Maybe all the testing is organized like some sort of Gauntlet for the Terrans, you know, like the one from Academy. :)
And it's AFAIK traditional military doctrine to send in a recon force prior to an invasion. I mean, they do build the wormhole to get reinforcements in.
And mabye they underestimated Confed (well, they most certainly did), and the idea of winning through sheer number isn't too bad either.

And last but not least: welcome. :)
 
Howdy,
My apologies for the delay replying to this thread.

(1) Even if the Prophecy was true and created specifically for the Nephilim story, there's nothing more than subtle hints given to suggest that the two correlate. It might be possible that the Nephilim are simply just playing mind games. If they held themselves up to be the realization of this prophecy, it would seriously put a damper on Kilrathi morale and spook the heck out of Confed.

It's certainly possible to claim that the Nephilim are lying and therefore dismiss that portion of the story... but you can essentially make that exact same claim for any possible situation. If you establish that the single source for information is faulty, then you've traded all established background in exchange for free reign over the story. Your call to make!

I guess the important thing here is that disregarding the Kilrathi aspect goes against the intent of the original game. It opens with the excerpt from the Tome of Sivar, the Kilrathi prophecy is mentioned throughout the story... heck, the game is even named Prophecy!

(2) The marines found "Kn'Thrak" written in blood on the deck of the disabled cruiser (or whatever class ship) at the beginning of Prophecy. It's not said for sure that the Nephilim wrote it, though. I don't recall any mention of it having been scribbled multiple times. A dying Kilrathi could have been overly superstitious and written it in his own blood before dying. Could this not have been a possible alternative?

You're correct there. I would argue against the idea that it was written by the Kilrathi, based on the state in which their bodies were discovered ("...the dead cats on board were more than just blown away. More like cut up into little pieces.").

(3) Regarding the Nephilim's taunts of their supremacy and testing of both the Kilrathi and the Confederation...could this not have just been more about them playing mind games with their enemies? When Blair was abducted, they poked around his mind and uncovered all kinds of information from his past memories. Additionally, during their initial onslaught, the Nephilim took thousands of Kilrathi (I believe Finley mentions this to Casey at one point). Could they not have similarly dissected the minds of these Kilrathi to discover more about this alleged Prophecy so that they could act the role better?

The Nephilim taunts are important because they give us a mess of information, outside of the normal 'boasting' - they introduce concepts like 'Aligned People' and 'Mother Creature' and whatnot.

(Based on what we see in the Dula VII sequence, the Kilrathi were being killed... it was humans they were dissecting for study.)

(1) Why in the hell would the Nephilim just magically appear in Kilrah of all sectors? This lends credence to the fact that they are the fulfillment of the prophecy. But then again, if they had some way of observing the universe (kind of like the Steltek), the cataclysmic destruction of Kilrah could have been something intriguing that drew their attention. Supporting this theory is what Finley says at one point in Prophecy - the intial Nephilim incursion into the Kilrah sector was merely a smaller force. If the Nephilim were initially serious about wiping the Kilrathi out from the face of existence, why didn't they just send a large assault force from the get-go? Why simply send a small expeditionary force to survey the area?

I think the mistake is treating it as a religion. There's a clear 'actual' event here that the Kilrathi have simply mythologized. (Per the ICIS Manual: "Kilrathi Sivarist doctrine has always been explicit regarding the possibility that the star gods of the ancient myth are physical beings who come to wage war..."):

In ~1600 BC an alien species arrives at Kilrah and challenges the pre-space Kilrathi. These 'star gods' announce that the primitive Kilrathi aren't worth of fighting... but that they do have potential to become a powerful race. With that in mind, the aliens claim that they will return in the future to either 'test' a strengthened Kilrathi or to eliminate them for falling in battle against another species. (The Kilrathi call the former situation 'Tr’thrak' and the latter 'Kn'thrak'.) Forward four thousand years and the 'star gods' are back to fulfill their promise (eliminate the Kilrathi and their conquerers).

The idea that Kilrah drew their attention is certainly important - their fascination with Blair comes from the idea that he's destroyed an entire planet (they refer to him as the 'Planet Killer' in the taunts and he talks about how fascinated they are with his ability to kill after he's 'rescued'...)

(Their force was fairly large - a dreadnought, two ship killers and several carrier groups... it was only a RIF group in the sense that they supposedly had a much larger force waiting.)

(2) Isn't the Kilrathi Prophecy about the end of everything? I was under the impression that the return of the Star Gods would basically mark the end of the Kilrathi and whatever species defeated them. If it's true that the Nephilim are basically on par with the Confederation in terms of technology, what's to suggest that the Nephilim are indeed this Star God threat if they are not technologically advanced enough to defeat the Confederation and the Kilrathi? Or is the argument that they would win by sheer numbers alone?

It's a four millenium old threat - when and if the Nephilim made it, they had no idea who or what they might ultimately be fighting.

This whole Accretion Device thing still escapes me. I still can't comprehend how once this device is activated, the wormhole is completely indestructable. Does it create some kind of natural particle flow so that even if destroyed, the wormhole would still remain open? Theoretically, what if you destroyed the suns that maintained this power? What if you destroyed the device? What if you destroyed whatever was controlling the wormhole on the other side (i.e. the other end of the wormhole in Nephilim territory)?

My fault - the idea was that the Accretion Device couldn't be destroyed without damaging Proxima's suns... not that it was completely invulnerable.
 
Funny, I never understood that the Nephlim wrote Kna"thrak, but it could be true.

Yeah, sure, it all could be just mindgames, but it seems clear that this theory was not what the makers of the game envisioned, right?

It is actually more fun to go along.
 
Hey now... :)

As always, thanks for your replies, guys.

LOAF, thanks for your commentary and for laying down the hard facts. Honestly, I don't know if having the Nephilim be the Star Gods or not would affect the story I'm cooking up one way or the other. I guess this was just more a curiosity on my part - to have the entire background.

I guess I'm just trying to understand the reasoning or logic behind some of the things that I'm finding some difficulty in grasping. This whole argument of mine is just for the sake of trying to look at all aspects of things; I must confess that I don't have anywhere NEAR the extent of knowledge about Wing Commander as you or some of the rest of people here, so please don't take any offense to my commentary or questioning that may come across as playing Devil's Advocate to some extent. Anyway, among the things I'm having difficulty grasping, or the things I'm considering:

(1) What if the Prophecy IS in fact true, but the Nephilim are not the race being referred to in it? Granted, they did wormhole their way into Kilrah of all sectors, but also consider this:

(a) if the whole purpose of the Star Gods is to wipe out the Kilrathi for failing and their enemy for defeating them, then why not just send out that attack force right at the war's end? Why wait a decade (or however long it was)?

(b) why not show up in full force? Granted, the wormhole was being solidified for passage of probably a much larger force, and the Midway's timely intervention cut them off. But think about this - if the Nephilim are the realization of the prophecy, how would they know that the Kilrathi failed and/or that Kilrah was destroyed? Or actually wait...I'm having a thought here:

What if the Nephilim didn't KNOW the Kilrathi failed? You said the Prophecy had two spins on it - Kn'Thrak and the alternative (T'Thrak or whatever, which I guess is the challenge the cats would face if they had been victorious and their Star Gods came again to finally face them in combat). So I guess a good argument that would make sense would be that the Star Gods simply did return as promised, and only found out after the fact that the Kilrathi were, in fact, defeated. This would explain the recon force that came through first. Because think about it - if it were the other way, if the Star Gods/Nephilim KNEW the Kilrathi were defeated, that would imply they'd been monitoring them all along...so why wouldn't they know the kind of force they'd be up against and just blitz them full-force? Instead, they're more tentative in coming through the wormhole, it seems.

(2) The Kn'Thrak spelled in blood on the deck of the ship is neither here, nor there, so this is really not an essential argument. You're right - Hawk told Casey right after that mission that the marines found the cats ripped up into little chunks. But whose to say that a cat didn't write it before being sliced and diced?

How would the Nephilim know the Kilrathi word and how to spell it? The Prophecy was written after they left, right? If we're going under the assumption that the Star Gods left all that time ago and have only now returned, even IF they knew of the Prophecy back then, how would they know how it translated over the years? Case in point - religious texts. These things are translated into numerous other languages. You take the story of Judgement Day....if aliens came down and wrote "Judgement Day," it would freak us out. But it wasn't originally called "Judgement Day"...there was probably a Latin, Aramaic, or some other ancient language tongue that this was translated from, yet today we don't know it by its ancient language translation0. But if the aliens knew that word, wouldn't that be the word they would write? And why would that hold any meaning to any of us since most of us aren't well versed in ancient languages? Now maybe we're to assume that the Kilrathi language didn't evolve or have different dialects over the millenia? I don't know how much sense that would make, but I guess that could be the case....dunno. What are your thoughts?

I'm all about trying to stick to the story as best as I can, and I plan to honor that as I go. I'm only trying to get a feel for what everyone else thinks as far as things. Again, I'm not saying the Prophecy ISN'T true...all I'm saying is that the Nephilim might not be the Star Gods of the Prophecy.

Also, the bugs brought many of Blair's memories of the past back to haunt him. Granted, one thing they discovered was the destruction of Kilrah, but that wasn't all...they also found out about Angel, Tolwyn, and other things. It seemed to me like they were more just fascinated with what makes a person tick rather than anything significant. Maybe this whole thing was a psycho-analysis of the human species - to try and find out what made us so resilient and tough so that we'd be easier to break in the war ahead, as well as to know how we think, the way we draw conclusions, etc. That'd be the best weapon to have against someone, wouldn't it? If you knew the mind of your enemy, you would know his strengths and his weaknesses, what he was going to do, etc.

I also question whether the Kilrathi were simply just slaughtered off by the bugs. I don't remember any Dula 7 sequence that mentioned the cats were being killed off left and right...I only remember there being like 2 or 3 prisoners (including Blair) who were "liberated." I know Finley spoke to Casey at one point, saying that she was in communication with the Kilrathi somewhere, but she said she had since lost all communication with them. Casey thought she was implying they had been killed, but Finley corrects him and says that it's more just simply that they're no longer there, and that it was known that the bugs took a great many prisoners - thousands, I believe she says. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, this implies to me that the Nephilim are interested in the Kilrathi for something more than just slaughter. Casey says that it's almost like they're being consumed or devoured (I forget the wording - it's been awhile) like in the Kilrathi Prophecy, or something to that effect (yeah yeah, again...I know, this points out that the Nephilim may in fact be the Star Gods). But my point here, is that regardless what the Nephilim are, it seemed like they were doing more than simply killing all life left and right. While that might be their ultimate aim, it's almost as though they first wish to harvest and dissect their prey...perhaps it's to glean all the knowledge they can from races prior to eliminating them? That way, they would be even stronger....and hey, that could work too...

The Star Gods wanted the Kilrathi to battle as many races as they could to attain a level of supremacy. Perhaps the Nephilim themselves have conquered a great many races during their time and have forced the hand of other races to be as violently confrontational as the Kilrathi all with the idea of having there be only one race at the end with the knowledge gleaned from every sentient race of the universe.

Whoa...what do you think about that idea? Or am I TOTALLY flying off on a tangent here?

Also, going off-topic a bit here, I could use some information in order to have my story a little truer to the universe:

(1) I'm under the impression that the Pilgrims were destroyed long ago, right? All that exists now are a limited number of half-breeds, like Blair and Paladin (at least in the movie)? Or is there any chance of there being an actual full-blooded pilgrim somewhere, hovering around the backwaters of some distant star?

(2) Is there ever any information on the Canewdon or Perillia, two adjacent systems located in the Epislon Sector, Deneb Quadrant? Specifically, any information pertaining to trade routes, planets, starbases, famous battles, head honchos, etc.?

(3) Taggart (Paladin) is still a Senator as of the end of Prophecy, right? Exactly what is he a senator of? Does he represent any particular planet or system? Does he hold any real power or is he just a talking head in a sea of talking heads? Is Taggart part pilgrim like Blair (in the movie, he did hand a cross to Blair, he had respect for pilgrims, and he could navigate space like a pilgrim)? When's the last time he's flown - either a transport or a fighter?

(4) Ghorah Khar was a system that rebelled against the empire during the war. I guess around a Kilrathi habited world in that system (not sure if it's named) hovered Olympus Station, is that right? Did Olympus Station survive to see the end of the war, or was it destroyed at some point?

Thanks again for all the help, guys. Again, LOAF, sorry if I come across as a devil's advocate again here - please just try and bear with me through my inquisitiveness! :)

Respectfully,
FireFalcon ~};^
 
As stated eariler you make good points. Also I agree that they study thier victims. Like in SO the virus. THe Nephilim probably studies humans and realized that we are curois by nature
 
X_FIREFALCON said:
How would the Nephilim know the Kilrathi word and how to spell it? The Prophecy was written after they left, right? If we're going under the assumption that the Star Gods left all that time ago and have only now returned, even IF they knew of the Prophecy back then, how would they know how it translated over the years? Case in point - religious texts. These things are translated into numerous other languages. You take the story of Judgement Day....if aliens came down and wrote "Judgement Day," it would freak us out. But it wasn't originally called "Judgement Day"...there was probably a Latin, Aramaic, or some other ancient language tongue that this was translated from, yet today we don't know it by its ancient language translation0. But if the aliens knew that word, wouldn't that be the word they would write? And why would that hold any meaning to any of us since most of us aren't well versed in ancient languages? Now maybe we're to assume that the Kilrathi language didn't evolve or have different dialects over the millenia? I don't know how much sense that would make, but I guess that could be the case....dunno. What are your thoughts?

Well, the kilrathi dont seem to have too many different languages. And important religious texts often remain the same for milennia. Even if the nephilim wrote the word in the ancient way, all kilrathi would know what i meant because its a important word for them. Im also sure the nephilim knew what the kilrathi named them and how they wrote it. Also names isnt changed much over time either. Jesus was probably named Jesus 2000 years ago. (Or at least nothing too different like Yhyutoroj.)
 
dextorboot said:
I think "Jesus" is actually greek. Unless you pronounce it a bit differently, then it's Spanish. ;)

Names can be written differently, but they remain the same word. hmmm, wonder how they write Jesus in chinese?
 
(2) Is there ever any information on the Canewdon or Perillia, two adjacent systems located in the Epislon Sector, Deneb Quadrant? Specifically, any information pertaining to trade routes, planets, starbases, famous battles, head honchos, etc.?

Canewdon is the system where most of Special Ops 2 took place - it's where the Morningstar fighter was tested/stolen/etc. It was considered a strategically vital system, a 'gateway' to from Deneb to Enigma. To that end, the Concordia fought a delaying action there in hopes of allowing the embattled 6th Fleet to regroup during/after the loss at Midgard. Akko Station (WC2 style Star Base) is located in or around the Canewdon System.

I believe Perillia is where Catscratch (from WCIV) is from, and that it doesn't show up anywhere else.

(3) Taggart (Paladin) is still a Senator as of the end of Prophecy, right? Exactly what is he a senator of? Does he represent any particular planet or system? Does he hold any real power or is he just a talking head in a sea of talking heads?

He's the elected senator for the Altair System, so he gets a regular senate vote. He's also the Senate Majority Leader (Federationist Party).

When's the last time he's flown - either a transport or a fighter?

He flew the Bannockburn, a light two-man smuggler craft with a cloaking device, as part of the covert operation that ended the 'false peace' in Fleet Action (2668). Before that he spent thirteen years as captain of the Free Trader 'Bonnie Heather'/as a covert operative for Admiral Tolwyn (followed by a short stint performing the same duties on a captured Kilrathi freighter, the Gamal Gan, in Special Ops 2 in 2667).

He retired from flying fighters in 2654 just after the Tiger's Claw returned from Operation Thor's Hammer - though he flew a Rapier II while defending the Bonnie Heather at Ghorah Khar in 2655 (in Freedom Flight).

(1) I'm under the impression that the Pilgrims were destroyed long ago, right? All that exists now are a limited number of half-breeds, like Blair and Paladin (at least in the movie)? Or is there any chance of there being an actual full-blooded pilgrim somewhere, hovering around the backwaters of some distant star?

I guess the important thing to understand first is that there are three distinct meanings assosciated with 'being' a Pilgrim.

In a scientific sense, Pilgrim refers to anyone with the 'navigation' ability seen in the movie - the 'power' is a naturally occuring genetic adaptation that came about through natural selection among humans born in microgravity during the early years of space exploration. Humans with the ability to navigate jump points were more likely to survive in deep space, and so they became more and more prevalent as Earth colonized other star systems. Pilgrim in this sense could refer to anyone born at any time in the Wing Commander universe - if they happen to inheret the right genes.

This lead to the religious sense of the word. Pilgrims can refer to followers of a doctrine laid down by someone named Ivar Chu McDaniel in the 23rd century - basically claiming that people with the navigation abilities were the 'elect' and that therefore must expand into space as their manifest destiny. Anyone who followed McDaniel's teachings would be considered a Pilgrim (navigation ability or not).

From the religious concept comes the political one - the Pilgrim Alliance was a theocracy born out of the McDanielite church. This is the organization that the Confederation fought (and won) a war with in the early thirties. So, Pilgrim in this sense includes everyone who is a member of this particular faction - which would be most but not all members of the McDanielite church and most but not all people with the genes for navigation.

Now, the tricky question - do Pilgrims still exist in the Wing Commander universe?

As of the Wing Commander movie (2654), they certainly do -- the war didn't wipe them out, it simply defeated them militarily. The Pilgrim Alliance was made up of twelve star systems; under the terms of the surrender two were completely ceded to the Confederation, five were given to the Confederation under the condition that 'enclaves' of Pilgrims be allowed to remain and five remained in the control of the defeated Pilgrim Alliance itself (two of these five colonies were later wiped out by the Kilrathi in the early days of the war).

There's a 'strike' against religious Pilgrims (McDanielites) at this point: after the war the church issued an edict banning them from travelling in space as punishment for the war. (Given the Pilgrim terrorists we see working with the Kilrathi in the movie novels, this edict is not necessarily followed by all.)

As we leave things that are definately part of the Wing Commander continuity, there are still plenty of Pilgrims (of all definitions) inhabiting the universe. Then we come Pilgrim Truth.

A pair of novels was written to follow the (pre-cut) story of the movie. The involve (more or less) Pilgrim radicals causing an uprising during the middle of the Kilrathi war... and, surprisingly, end with every Pilgrim who wants to leaving the galaxy. The first book (setting up the plot and ending in a cliffhangar), Pilgrim Stars, was published... the second, Pilgrim Truth, hasn't been (efforts are underway by fans). The publisher did away with their movie tie-in division following a 2000 merger and 'Truth, though completed, fell by the wayside. Anyway, this unusual situation basically means that the events of Pilgrim Truth aren't part of the canon, but are generally respected in that manner anyway (the prologue and outline of the lost book are online). In any event, Pilgrims can still be around either way - they'd just be very few and very far between following Pilgrim Truth.

Is Taggart part pilgrim like Blair (in the movie, he did hand a cross to Blair, he had respect for pilgrims, and he could navigate space like a pilgrim)?

Taggart and Blair are both Pilgrims in the genetic sense only - not ideologically. Neither was raised as a member of the McDanielite Church and neither lived for any extended amount of time as a citizen of the Pilgrim Alliance (as a baby Blair lived on Peron in the Luyten System for a short time - and Taggart posed as a Pilgrim merchant during covert operations during the war.)

(4) Ghorah Khar was a system that rebelled against the empire during the war. I guess around a Kilrathi habited world in that system (not sure if it's named) hovered Olympus Station, is that right? Did Olympus Station survive to see the end of the war, or was it destroyed at some point?

The planet is also named Ghorah Khar (and people from Ghorah Khar are 'Kharrans'). Olympus Station was not destroyed at any point in the games. It last appeared in early 2667 in Special Ops 1 (two years before the end of the war... SO1 ends with Thrakhath revealing that attempts to take the system were just a feint to draw the Concordia away from the real fight in the Deneb Sector - so it seems likely that the station survived.)

Thanks again for all the help, guys. Again, LOAF, sorry if I come across as a devil's advocate again here - please just try and bear with me through my inquisitiveness!

I learn as much from intelligent conversation as anyone else - I'm happy to argue any point (G)
 
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