Missile Gripes Pt.1

[Quarto]

Yeah, in some games HS missiles are extremely useful because of their greater firepower. In Standoff, it takes a single HS missile to kill a Drakhir, while an IR missile will just damage it - and I believe our stats are pretty close to WC2 in this regard, so that might have also been the case there.

 

[frostytheplebe]

One thing that I'm surprised hasn't come up here more is the damage difference between the Heat Seeker and Friend or Foe. In general, most games give the HS missiles a much beefier warhead than the IFFs. You have to make a conscious decision considering the tradeoffs. A rack of slightly more difficult to use HS missiles packs a much heavier punch than a bunch of FF misiles that will just scatter around.

The different hardpoint 'sizes' thing did get implemented, although we mainly see it in terms of torpedo capable or not. But later in WC4, for example, you can pack Mace Missiles in the heavier slots and not in others.

That is a good point... but I'll take a missile with a smaller warhead the hits MOST of the time, over one that hits some of the time IF You're lined up properly when you fire it, IF the enemy doesn't have a tail gunner, and IF the enemy doesn't deviate much from his path.

So when it comes down to it, warhead size and which does more damage is sort of a moot point when the missile doesn't hit anything.

Yeah, in some games HS missiles are extremely useful because of their greater firepower. In Standoff, it takes a single HS missile to kill a Drakhir, while an IR missile will just damage it - and I believe our stats are pretty close to WC2 in this regard, so that might have also been the case there.

Bravo on that by the way. WC 2 was one of the few games where the heat seeker prooved at all useful.

 

[Quarto]

So when it comes down to it, warhead size and which does more damage is sort of a moot point when the missile doesn't hit anything.

True... but this, in some ways, is another point in favour of the HS missiles. With IRs, I have a pretty big wastage ratio, because I fire when I have lock, not when I can count on a hit. FFs are different, they hit most of the time - but they pick the target they want to go after, which often is different to the one you actually wanted to kill. Meanwhile, with a HS missile, because I know that it's fairly easy to spoof, I tend to be careful and fire only when I'm pretty sure it will hit.

This means that, for me, HS missiles generally guarantee the highest hit ratio. That's not actually thanks to any inherent superiority of the HS missile - quite the opposite, it's actually because it's inferior . Still, I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets careless thanks to the convenience of fire-and-forget missiles.

Bravo on that by the way. WC 2 was one of the few games where the heat seeker prooved at all useful.

I disagree. If you think about it, you'll find that actually, the only games where HS missiles weren't useful was WC3-4 and Privateer. In WC1, they sure were useful, because you had so few missiles, and they were pretty powerful. WC2 - same. WCP and SO - same story again. Armada - same again (though missiles were generally hard to use there).
Now, think about the causes for their uselessness in those other games. In Priv, the game balance was simply fudged in this regard, because they wanted to give you a progression from cheapest/worst to most expensive/best missiles - so the HS ended up cheaper, but more spoofable and weaker than in other games.
What about WC3 and WC4? Why were HS missiles useless there? Uh... well, because nobody ever used them . Having the freedom to load out your ship any way you wanted, everyone always went for the easy-to-use IR or Leech missiles. Based on most people's experience with WC3/4, you could actually claim that not only were HS missiles useless, but so were FFs and Darts - only IR and Leech missiles were of any use at all.

...And Leech missiles, of course, were the most useful of all - what other missile out there is there that can delay the appearance of the next wave of fighters until you've had time to take out all those annoying turret mines?

(too bad you then had to kill that defenceless leeched ship in order to allow the show to go on)

 

[Mace]

Well I usually back down with a heatseeker, throttle down so i can get a clear shot, and I can not remember any situation that an enemy tailgunner shot down my missile.

Also, regarding the IFF missiles, has anyone ever get hit by their own missile while their radio was damaged? I'm pretty sure it's possible since the WC1 manual warns you about it, but never encountered it.

 

[frostytheplebe]

Well I usually back down with a heatseeker, throttle down so i can get a clear shot, and I can not remember any situation that an enemy tailgunner shot down my missile..

It's not JUST the missile being shot down by the tail gunner. By the time you get a lock long enough to shoot, the tail gunner has already ripped through your shields.

Also, regarding the IFF missiles, has anyone ever get hit by their own missile while their radio was damaged? I'm pretty sure it's possible since the WC1 manual warns you about it, but never encountered it.

Never happened to me... I didn't think that could happen.

 

[Farbourne]

Very good point about the high damage on the HS. That was a point in their favor.

I also agree with Quarto in that my hit percentage with Javelins was higher than with ImRecs...because the only time I would fire a HS was at low deflection angle, close in, when I was confident the enemy wasn't on the verge of a hard break.

But I think Quarto nailed the big problem with the HS...in WC3/4, it seemed useless because you had your pick of any of the fancier flashier missiles.

One think I think would have been cool, and rebalanced the field a little, was if HS missiles didn't give the other pilot a lock warning...i.e. because they don't use any kind of active tracking system like an ImRec or FF missile does, if they were silent killers. I wouldn't think it would have been too hard to implement...just make the AI not respond if a HS missile was fired. That might have made them a little more appealing in WC3/4. And you could have made them function in the "dead zone" in WC4, under the argument that they don't need active "radar" or whatever it is to lock on...they are essentially "visual" homing missiles (where "visual" to them is in the IR spectrum).

 

[Wedge009]

Also, regarding the IFF missiles, has anyone ever get hit by their own missile while their radio was damaged? I'm pretty sure it's possible since the WC1 manual warns you about it, but never encountered it.

I remember reading that too. I'm not sure if the programmers would have implemented it - it is a rather subtle set of circumstances and it would be pretty nasty to be hit by your own, or a wingman's, missile. I would put it down to 'flavour' text: things they wrote about to make the universe feel just that little bit more in-depth. After all, it was Origin. They created worlds.

 

[Ilanin]

I have a memory of being killed by a friendly IFF missile with my comms out in WC2; however, I have no real details to the memory and I suspect it was probably a Kilrathi and I failed to notice the various warning stuff.

But overall I just hate IFF missiles except in WC4, in which they're awesome. My only use for them is when flying a bomber, wherein "shoot down the nearest fighter" is actually what I want as it's the easiest way to get light fighters off me. When I'm in a fighter if I'm using a missile it usually means I want this particular target dead, now. So I want a big warhead and it to hit what I aimed at, neither of which FFs do. WC4 is the exception, wherein FF's are the ultimate anti-Dragon weapon I find (you get more of them, they do a lot of damage, and most everything else the missile might go after is probably cloaked).

My missile preferences do vary very strongly depending on the game engine - most obviously, I like IR missiles in WC2 whereas if I had the choice I'd never take anything other than dumbfires in Standoff despite those supposedly having the same stats for all the weapons. I guess the damage is the same, but it seems much easier to hit Kilrathi heavies/bombers in Standoff.

 

[Quarto]

My missile preferences do vary very strongly depending on the game engine - most obviously, I like IR missiles in WC2 whereas if I had the choice I'd never take anything other than dumbfires in Standoff despite those supposedly having the same stats for all the weapons. I guess the damage is the same, but it seems much easier to hit Kilrathi heavies/bombers in Standoff.

I think you misunderstood someone . Weapons in Standoff have the same stats as they do in WC2. This doesn't mean they all have identical stats - just as they didn't in WC2. Dumbfires are indeed much more powerful than all the other missiles. In turn, the HS missile is more powerful than the FF and IR. Those last two, IIRC, do the same amount damage.

Incidentally, WC2 did have a rather curious feature - when the Kilrathi fired dumbfires at you, it seems you actually got a "lock" warning. I don't think there was anything in the docs about it, and for a while I thought that maybe the manual lied about the Sartha and Drakhri only carrying dumbfires, but it seems that this was indeed the case. Hmm, maybe we should patch that into Standoff - might help to slightly reduce the death rates from Kilrathi dumbfires.

 

[Ilanin]

[dramatic villain voice] The misunderstanding is all yours, my friend [/dvv]

I meant "despite the fact that dumbfires in Standoff are supposedly identical to dumbfires in WC2, I dislike WC2 dumbfires and would never use anything else in Standoff if you let me" .

A dumbfire lock warning in Standoff probably would decrease the death rate to dumbfires, though it would lead to wasted decoys I imagine. I'd certainly like to have one (though I might be a bit dubious about how it is supposed to work...). Would it lead to AI wingmen evading Kilrathi DF's better?

 

[Quarto]

Well, that's the problem - it would likely lead to AI wasting decoys. I don't mind if the player wastes decoys, because he should learn to conserve them anyway . But it would be better if the AI didn't waste them. Then again, I wonder - does the AI even survive being targetted by dumbfires? Or is it too dumb to avoid them most of the time?

 

[Ilanin]

I had a brief look today - loaded up Standoff, went for Wild Weasel as a mission that would have a ton of missiles flying around, turned on Invincibility and switched to the object camera. I saw Sparrow (on Nightmare, so the AI is about as good as it'll get) apparently jink around a dumbfire, though it could have been a coicidence. Vixen flew straight into one, as did somebody else whose name I forget. I'll have another look tomorrow, so far my guess on AI evasion is "maybe".

 

[frostytheplebe]

Well, that's the problem - it would likely lead to AI wasting decoys. I don't mind if the player wastes decoys, because he should learn to conserve them anyway . But it would be better if the AI didn't waste them. Then again, I wonder - does the AI even survive being targetted by dumbfires? Or is it too dumb to avoid them most of the time?

The latter. Hitting AI targets with dumbfires is too easy.

 

[Ilanin]

The latter. Hitting AI targets with dumbfires is too easy.

Hitting AI targets with dumbfires is easy because human pilots generally come up close enough behind enemy fighters before firing that the enemy barely has a chance to evade. If the AI did this it would make for a rather dull (also, impossible) game, so they fire from much further away, giving human pilots a pretty decent chance to dodge the things provided they see them incoming. Given this, the AI ought to be able to dodge AI-fired dumbfires from time to time as well.

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

From the classic missiles, I generallly prefer the HS to the FF - I really dislike the aspect that it choses its own target because it's most often too weak to severly damage the enemy.

I liked employing HS mostly in WCP.

 

[frostytheplebe]

From the classic missiles, I generallly prefer the HS to the FF - I really dislike the aspect that it choses its own target because it's most often too weak to severly damage the enemy.

I liked employing HS mostly in WCP.

Against stronger targets sure, but they are almost essential to anyone flying around in a Broadsword with about 5 light fighters nipping away at your shields with neutron guns.

 

[Quarto]

From the classic missiles, I generallly prefer the HS to the FF - I really dislike the aspect that it choses its own target because it's most often too weak to severly damage the enemy.

Yeah... though I do find the Pilum exceedingly useful in Standoff. When you fly a Crossbow, and a wave of Sartha appears, you can thin them out really quickly by flying into the swarm and firing off all your Pilums.

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

Against stronger targets sure, but they are almost essential to anyone flying around in a Broadsword with about 5 light fighters nipping away at your shields with neutron guns.

Yeah... though I do find the Pilum exceedingly useful in Standoff. When you fly a Crossbow, and a wave of Sartha appears, you can thin them out really quickly by flying into the swarm and firing off all your Pilums.

Yeah, when you have lots of wimpy enemies without decoys and you're in a sluggish craft then the Pilum has its merrits I guess. Still, not at all my favourite missile. And in the original WC 2 the Broadsword's turrets were fine as well to dispatch Sarthas, especially given the low speed of missiles.

 

[frostytheplebe]

Yeah, when you have lots of wimpy enemies without decoys and you're in a sluggish craft then the Pilum has its merrits I guess. Still, not at all my favourite missile. And in the original WC 2 the Broadsword's turrets were fine as well to dispatch Sarthas, especially given the low speed of missiles.

True enough. Though did anyone else find the side turrets near useless for manual use?

those proton torpedos in privateer are my favorites for sheer destructiveness and ability to fire in rapid succession (burst of 3, find new target)

See I never understood why those were so popular. The dumbfire always appeared to do more damage.

 

[NinjaLA]

20 shot capacity + rapidfire = superiority