Kilrathi Dreadnought

[Dragon1]

Hi all,

I was wondering, the Kilrathi dreadnought from WC3 is stated in the Victory Streak manual as being 22,000 meters in overall length! Yet the model in actual gameplay appears to be much smaller. Is the 22,000 meter size correct, or was this just Confed war propoganda?

Also, the dreadnought has some interesting looking arrays attatched to four forward prongs. What classified the Confederation-class starship a dreadnought and not a heavy carrier was the fact that they had mounted and advanced phase-transit cannon based on the Sivar technology. Could the arrays on the Kilrathi dreadnought also be a weapon based on the Sivar technology? It seems unlikely that the Kilrathi would give up such an advantageous weapon system just because they lost one ship carrying the prototype several years prior. Any thoughts?

 

[Haesslich]

We've seen the 22km figure in the novels False Colors and Heart of the Tiger. She also has planetary bombardment missiles loaded, which means she's got weapons capable of devastating a planet even without a biowarfare load, IIRC.

The main reason we don't see any more Sivar-style ships is because a) the gun wasn't all that useful as the Confederation found out, and b) the shipyards which constructed it were since smashed by the Confederation after Operation Thor's Hammer took out the Sivar's battle group. We call the Confederation-class ships dreadnoughts because they have some serious weapons to hit other capships with, which puts them more in line with battleships than carriers... but it still carried a reinforced wing. The Dreadnought also seems to carry a wing of its own, even if its extensive weapons loadout (turrets, guns, missiles) would fight much of the Confederation fleet to a standstill, at least according to what Admiral Tolwyn states in False Colors.

 

[Moonsword]

That air wing is probably heavy on interceptors, CAP fighters, and space superiority units to cover the dreadnaught and stop bomber and torpedo attacks. I don't doubt that there's at least a few bomber squadrons in the mix, though, to give the dreadnaught more long-range punch.

 

[Edfilho]

Ooooooh... I must not talk about the Dreadlong.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I was wondering, the Kilrathi dreadnought from WC3 is stated in the Victory Streak manual as being 22,000 meters in overall length! Yet the model in actual gameplay appears to be much smaller. Is the 22,000 meter size correct, or was this just Confed war propoganda?

My understanding is that the RealSpace engine has three scales for ships, each of which is continous only with itself: fighter, capital ship and large capital ship. Large capital ship includes, in the case of WC3, only the Behemoth and the H'var Kann... so it's not possible to properly determine the intended length from the gameplay. (Ie, if you put the Victory model next to the Corvette model, they're the right lenghth... but if you put a Thunderbolt next to the Victory, the Thunderbolt is outrageously large.)

Also, the dreadnought has some interesting looking arrays attatched to four forward prongs. What classified the Confederation-class starship a dreadnought and not a heavy carrier was the fact that they had mounted and advanced phase-transit cannon based on the Sivar technology. Could the arrays on the Kilrathi dreadnought also be a weapon based on the Sivar technology? It seems unlikely that the Kilrathi would give up such an advantageous weapon system just because they lost one ship carrying the prototype several years prior. Any thoughts?

They talk about large missile batteries in the forward area in False Colors... other than that, the dreadnought is just another case of the Kilrathi using a bunch of scales for the same ship. There's a transport, a blockade runner, a destroyer and a carrier that have the same basic design.

(Confed hunted down and destroyed the Sivar battlegroup to the last man as an indication of how serious they were that the weapon not be used again - and then they took out the facility that built it at Jakarta afterwards.)

 

[Edfilho]

Must... Not... Rant... About The Dreanaught....

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Argue about the dreadnaught or not, but stop polluting the thread otherwise.

 

[Dundradal]

I would guess the arrays on the front are some kind of heavy energy weapon. not some deathstar type merging beam or something but 4 heavy weapons for one shot one kill type things..

 

[Dragon1]

I tend to agree with Dundradal on this point.

 

[Col. Bob]

When was the Dreadnought first produced? I saw a couple in Academy (of course, Academy has a few chronology problems).

 

[Haesslich]

When was the Dreadnought first produced? I saw a couple in Academy (of course, Academy has a few chronology problems).

Those were a different sort of dreadnought. The most recent ones were produced sometime after they finished designing and building the Hakaga-class supercarriers before the end of the False Armistice. Those had overcome the difficulties of jumping ships over a certain mass-limit, and had also apparently pioneered the 'nacelles buried in the middle of the ship' technology that we see in the Hvar'Kann and other dreadnoughts.

Unfortunately, my Academy knowledge is poor.

 

[Viper61]

When was the Dreadnought first produced? I saw a couple in Academy (of course, Academy has a few chronology problems).

*points to LOAF's post*

They talk about large missile batteries in the forward area in False Colors... other than that, the dreadnought is just another case of the Kilrathi using a bunch of scales for the same ship. There's a transport, a blockade runner, a destroyer and a carrier that have the same basic design.

C-ya

 

[Viper61]

Long post so I'll split the two:

I'll throw my hat into this ring . . . regurgitating the arguments I've heard in the past and my personal ones.

Haesslich - I don't think the WC3 novel says anything about how big the H'var Kann is . .. I could be wrong, but I'm not even sure its called a dreadnaught there. IIRC, it only refers to it as Thrakath's new flagship and carrier. More about this later. (build the suspense shall we? ).

FC tells us in two places that the DN is huge. One, where Banfield tells us its 22 kilometers long (IIRC, its a typo mistake that has made it to print, ergo, canon - see the bible reference). Two, where Bear compares the DN to the Behemoth, basically commenting the DN dwarfed the Behemoth, which we all see from ingame footage is pretty damn big.

1- the DN doesn't look 22km in game.

Can be explained away as game engine limitations.

2- the DN isn't armed (15 lasers and maybe a half dozen AMG's) like its 22km long.

Again, game limitations.


3- The DN has way too little mass (compared to other WC capital ships) to be 22km long.

This one I've always thought was a good point, but its been thrown about so much I'm tired of hearing about it. The other side of the argument seems to be that the DN is mostly empty space. I still think the thing would have to be made out of paper to be 22km long, though .

4- the ending cutscene with Blair being tractored into the forward bay of the DN, compare the hanger opening size to Blair/Kilrathi inside.

I rather like this one, though it can be argued its a forced perspective type situation.

5- the ending cutscenes where the Vic plows into the DN, the DN doesn't seem that big.

You can argue that the designers would want some agreement between the in-game and video model.

Now, my personal sticking points:

6- In False Colors, the DN is a almost the same size as a backwater system space station (Ukar dai Ragark even says he was assigned to a very unimportant base in the Landreich - Banfield makes the comment that the figures are nearly twice what they should have been for the facility). K'tithra Mang from WC2 is on the order of 5km and a major command base to the Kilrathi. This means we are to assume that a backwater base is about 22km while a major command is 5km.

The argument can be made that Ragarks base is newer than K'tithra Mang (Mang being around in '54) or is a personal fiefdom that Ragark has expanded on using his own resources, or is an asteroid base, etc etc.

7- My personal favorite - In Fleet Action (maybe a year before WC3), the Hakaga carriers construction almost knocked the Kilrathi out of the war. The resources required to build 6 (I think its six, it may have been 8) of these carriers stretched the Kilrathi war machine to its limits at 1.8km (Twice as long as any Kat carrier in service, assuming the Bhantkara - largest carrier I know about- is in service). So we are to believe that directly after building these monsters, the Kilrathi turned around and built at least two (I can't remember how many are in the bad ending cutscene) 22km long ships when 8 Hakaga carriers that were at the most 1.8km long apeice almost ruined them?

No real 'devils advocate' I can think of here.

Overall - This is an old one, but I tend to agree to it. I think the H'Var Kann was intended to be a Hakaga carrier (and the ships on the cover of Fleet Action could be explained as an artists representation of ralari destroyers sent to radiate a world). I don't know how parallel the development of WC3 and Fleet Action were, but most of the evidence stacks up.

As in #7 above, the Kilrathi were too strapped to build a whole new warship. The Emporer was severly pissed that Thrakath had lost half his new fleet in the BoT (WC3N). I'm not sure I'd be to mad if a couple of new 22km long DN's were coming online. The Emporer even commented that the Empire was in dire straights to replace the losses (something like 5 years), not an issue if a few supposedly brand new huge carriers/DN's coming online. The H'Var Kann is only introduced as Thrakaths newest flagship in the WC3N, which just as easily could have been the newest Hakaga to come online that missed the BoT (Fleet Action).
Also, when Blairs strike force from the Vic began to engage it in WC3N, there is no mention of how ungodly large the thing is by anyone as there was in FC . .. even though this is supposed to be the first time its ever seen. If it was a Hakaga, it would have been old hat. In addition, the H'Var Kann is actually threatened by the small strike force (per Meleks comments).


Anyway, its all mental masterbation. THe Hakaga is way too short to be the DN from FC and the DN from FC is the DN from WC3 etc etc etc. *raises glass* Here's to typos making a whole new canon class.

C-ya

 

[Quarto]

I've never been happy about the 22km dreadnoughts... but whatever we can say about their craziness, they are still canon, so I'll play the devil's advocate here and defend them.

3- The DN has way too little mass (compared to other WC capital ships) to be 22km long.

This one I've always thought was a good point, but its been thrown about so much I'm tired of hearing about it. The other side of the argument seems to be that the DN is mostly empty space. I still think the thing would have to be made out of paper to be 22km long, though .

We don't know how much a ship of this size should weigh. We've never seen one . Yes, compared to other ships in WC, its mass-length ratio is way off, but that doesn't mean it has to be made of paper... and remember, in some ways its mass is a good argument for the ship being this big. After all, given the strain on the Empire, how could they possibly build a 22km ship that wouldn't consist mostly of empty space?

5- the ending cutscenes where the Vic plows into the DN, the DN doesn't seem that big.

This is an often heard argument... but mostly because nobody's ever tried to debunk it. Look at the screenshots I've attached. What with the cinematic perspective and all, it's very difficult to make any accurate judgements out of them... but it is incredibly clear that the dreadnought dwarfs the Victory. It doesn't really matter whether thedreadnought really is 22 km long, 15 km, or 10 km - what matters is these screenshots prove beyond all doubt that 22 km is not a spelling mistake, because this beast is a lot bigger than 2.2 km.

(ironically, whoever compiled the WC Bible, apparently also believed it was a spelling mistake and changed it to 2.2 km )

6- In False Colors, the DN is a almost the same size as a backwater system space station (Ukar dai Ragark even says he was assigned to a very unimportant base in the Landreich - Banfield makes the comment that the figures are nearly twice what they should have been for the facility). K'tithra Mang from WC2 is on the order of 5km and a major command base to the Kilrathi. This means we are to assume that a backwater base is about 22km while a major command is 5km.

The argument I would use is that K'tithrak Mang is a command base, not a naval base. Ragark's base is probably the only real naval facility in the sector - so, it's probably got enough docking facilities for the entire sector fleet to be docked at the same time - compare this to Pegasus base in the WC Movie, and Alexandria base in Action Stations. Compare it also to Blackmane base, which is essentially a really long tube with a few things in the middle. It's not at all inconceivable for a base to be 20-25 km long, considering that the actual habitable area is probably no bigger than K'tithrak Mang, while the rest of the base is just mooring fixtures, drydocks and the like.

7- My personal favorite - In Fleet Action (maybe a year before WC3), the Hakaga carriers construction almost knocked the Kilrathi out of the war. The resources required to build 6 (I think its six, it may have been 8) of these carriers stretched the Kilrathi war machine to its limits at 1.8km (Twice as long as any Kat carrier in service, assuming the Bhantkara - largest carrier I know about- is in service). So we are to believe that directly after building these monsters, the Kilrathi turned around and built at least two (I can't remember how many are in the bad ending cutscene) 22km long ships when 8 Hakaga carriers that were at the most 1.8km long apeice almost ruined them?[/qupte]
Three things here:
1. It's fortunate, then, that we know how empty that dreadnought is... makes it a lot less resource-expensive, eh?
2. We don't know how many of these beasts there are. If we accept your (quite reasonable) argument that the H'Var Kann is one of the Hakaga-class carriers, then what does that leave us with? The "fleet gathering at Kilrah" and "Victory death" scenes both only show one dreadnought. False Colors, IIRC, may have raised the number of dreadnoughs a bit, but I don't remember (and the Emperor, in the WC3 novel, always talks about "the new weapon" in singular).
3. During the period when the Hakaga were being built, the Empire was under constant pressure from the Confederation. They held the upper hand, but were quickly losing the advantage. So, there was a lot more strain on their resources - and, in any case, the only major problem they seemed to have was the number of transports. What's more, the Hakaga were being built in the Hari sector, which strained transportation even further. This situation dramatically changes after Battle of Terra. The Confed fleet is at a major disadvantage, and pretty much unable to go on the offensive. The Kilrathi are also not taking any huge steps - they are attacking all along the front, but there's no evidence of any all-out offensives anywhere in particular. All of WC3 is just a long, steady period of preparation for the big push. In this situation, it's much easier for them to spare the transports needed to supply the construction of the dreadnoughts... especially when they no longer have to do it in secrecy on the ass-end of nowhere. For all we know, the dreadnoughts were constructed in downtown Kilrah.

(and, of course, the fact that the Emperor believed the Kilrathi could not endure more than another year of the war, is also an argument in support of the dreadnoughts - much like Confed with its Behemoth, they desperately needed a means to end the whole thing)

 

[Red Baron]

OK i accept these arguments as you cannot deny them for sure.
But that leaves these Dralthis to WHAT size? The left one is definately still in the "inner sphere" of the Dreadnaught, the right one is, in my opinion, just under the right strut, but i´m not sure about that.
back in the time they used models and angles and distances to create different sizes between them these "nitpicks" were really fun. I thought you won´t have these arguments with CGs, guess i was wrong.

This post is relating to the 22km-version, not the "bigger than 2.2km"-version

 

[Ijuin]

Let's model the dreadnought as a box 22 km long and 2 km wide and tall (it probably has more surface area than this shape though, but I prefer to err on the conservative side). This gives it a hull surface area of 172 square kilometers (172 million square meters). If its hull is made of a material with approximately the density of aluminum (about 2.5 g/cm^3), then the hull can be no thicker than five to six centimeters, with nothing whatsoever contained within, if the 290,000 ton mass is to be taken as correct.

This shape would also have a volume of 88 cubic kilometers, and filling it with an atmosphere equivalent to Earth at sea level would require approximately 100 million tons of air. Even if the dreadnought were shaped so that it had only a tenth of this volume, it would still hold ten million tons of air. In other words, a 290,000 ton dreadnought of this size would be thirty times lighter than air.

I believe that if the 22-km length is correct, then the mass is way off and should be 290 million tons, not 290 thousand, since the smaller figure must necessarily produce a structure that is 99% vacuum even if made as thin as possible.

 

[Viper61]

This is an often heard argument... but mostly because nobody's ever tried to debunk it. Look at the screenshots I've attached. What with the cinematic perspective and all, it's very difficult to make any accurate judgements out of them... but it is incredibly clear that the dreadnought dwarfs the Victory. It doesn't really matter whether thedreadnought really is 22 km long, 15 km, or 10 km - what matters is these screenshots prove beyond all doubt that 22 km is not a spelling mistake, because this beast is a lot bigger than 2.2 km.

The first shot you really can't use as it gives no bearing on how close the Victory is to the DN. The second one you can as it is impacting, and it can be used to say the DN is about 2.2km in-game. From your green outline, you can see that this screen only shows the 'portion' of the Victory, unless she collapsed into a little box instead of a long thin rectange at impact . Enter rough extrapolation for how much of the Vic you are actually seeing in that shot, couple in the DN/Victory's overall length and I'd say its at least nearer to 2km than any other value . . . 3 Vics lined up.

This is assuming the Victory is actually impacting the hull of the DN, it could have hit the shields for all we know and the movie could prove the DN is 22km .

(ironically, whoever compiled the WC Bible, apparently also believed it was a spelling mistake and changed it to 2.2 km )

IIRC, the bible was written specifically for the development of the games/novels, not in reaction to any of them .. . leading up to WC3 at least.

The argument I would use is that K'tithrak Mang is a command base, not a naval base. Ragark's base is probably the only real naval facility in the sector. . .

Never thought of that scenario. Its actually a rather good point as the DN docked there was undergoing major 'drydock', second echelon repairs, IIRC. Though, I'm not sure why a backwater sector would need that much of a naval base, considering the amount of traffic/battles/etc that would go on there. Pegasus was that large because it was a major hub.

2. We don't know how many of these beasts there are. If we accept your (quite reasonable) argument that the H'Var Kann is one of the Hakaga-class carriers, then what does that leave us with? The "fleet gathering at Kilrah" and "Victory death" scenes both only show one dreadnought. False Colors, IIRC, may have raised the number of dreadnoughs a bit, but I don't remember (and the Emperor, in the WC3 novel, always talks about "the new weapon" in singular).

Actually, your image of the 'Victory death' sequence shows 2 . . . theres one in the background behind a Fralthi II cruiser.
Which the Emporer tells Thrakhath to 'release the new weapon' directly after his return from the BoT, something I've always assumed meant the biological weapons from Thrakhath's response (I can't see him having a major problem using a 22km ship to plow through Confed).

. . . So, there was a lot more strain on their resources - and, in any case, the only major problem they seemed to have was the number of transports. . .

Can't argue this as I'm right in the middle of a move/thesis completion, but I'm pretty sure theres at least 3 or 4 quotes spread throughout Fleet Action and WC3N that the transports were a bottleneck, but the resources of the Kilrathi Empire as a whole were stretched thin (though even in their thinned state, they still had enough to keep Confed at bay while they massed a fleet in Kilrah orbit - never understood the 'crushing blow' theory the Kats prescribed to. A conventional war would have had Confed on the ropes inside of a year, though I'm not sure the Emporer/Thrakhath would have lived that long).

(and, of course, the fact that the Emperor believed the Kilrathi could not endure more than another year of the war, is also an argument in support of the dreadnoughts - much like Confed with its Behemoth, they desperately needed a means to end the whole thing)

But the Confederation had been constructing the Behemoth for the better part of 10 years, if I'm remembering my FC correctly. The Hakaga's were 'the means to end the whole thing' a year earlier . . . so why would you need the DN's until the failure of the BoT fleet? Also, remember, the Emporer calls for the release of the 'new weapon' right after Thrakhaths return from the BoT.
Of course, this isn't addressing the fact that the DN's could have been constructed for a number of years, we just don't know about them (or maybe we do as Blair seems to know Thrakhath has a new flagship in the WC3N, but doesn't comment on the hugeness of it). One set of super secret ships the Terrans don't know about is a plot device. Figure in the resourses the Hakaga's were draining and two sets is a plot hole .

Anyway, I rather think the conflict between a wounded Bhantkara (Karga) and a Hakaga (Vorgath was his name IIRC) would have been exciting enough without it being 22km long, but oh well, you can't always eat the cake you have .

C-ya

 

[Starman©]

Hm, AFAIK you are discussing this Dreadnaught things for years now.
Honestly, I have not all your knowledge of wc, but I agree with vipers points, and
to what I read for myself. It would simple be impossible and resulting 22km
maybe just from an writing error and some follow-up reference, which simply
copied that measure.

While we have discussed the length of the ship in our internal (cause we
want to include it in WC-Saga sooner or later), Lars came up with some
perfect compare-pictures, and I thougt maybe this will help solving up this
issue. In this 22 km long dreadnaught the bhantkara can nearly land in
the hangarbay, the small one is "only" 2,2 kilometers long (maybe that was
the origin of a tipping error), and it sounds more logic to the logistic efforts
and the specs like mass and weapons, and it fits better to the movies with
the hangarbay involved.

If 2,2 km is correct, I can't say either, but It looks more realistic IMO

I hope this help out (if not, sorry for interferring )
22 km:

2,2,km:

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I think we're forgetting a key point in Fleet Action. When the book starts, the problem isn't that the war is being outright lost... it's that the war needs to be delayed until the next batch of warships can be made available. The Hakagas are a secret, which Thrakhath uses to plug this gap, but there's still the ordinary clan-built fleets that the Barons expect to have available in the next year. Those ships are the Hvar'kanns and Bhantkaras - and the events of Fleet Action prevented the Confederation from striking to win the war in 2668 (Thrakhath wanted to immediately finish the war with the Hakagas, but this was not the *necessary* goal).

When was the Dreadnought first produced? I saw a couple in Academy (of course, Academy has a few chronology problems).

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Academy used a similar design for several different 'scales' of ships. A transport, a transport/blockade runner conversion, a destroyer and a carrier all used the same basic layout as the dreadnought. The actual Hvar’kann-class entered service in 2669 - it's mentioned in False Colors that they were built as part of Thrakhath's "final solution" after the Battle of Terra.

The H'Var Kann is only introduced as Thrakaths newest flagship in the WC3N, which just as easily could have been the newest Hakaga to come online that missed the BoT (Fleet Action).

The problem with this explanation (which is otherwise reasonable and workable) is that the Hvar'kann is also explicitly where Melek surrenders at the end of both the novel and the game.

IIRC, the bible was written specifically for the development of the games/novels, not in reaction to any of them .. . leading up to WC3 at least.

Any of the WC3 stuff is a later addition - that's why most of the ship writeups are from the WC3 Official Guide.

Never thought of that scenario. Its actually a rather good point as the DN docked there was undergoing major 'drydock', second echelon repairs, IIRC. Though, I'm not sure why a backwater sector would need that much of a naval base, considering the amount of traffic/battles/etc that would go on there. Pegasus was that large because it was a major hub.

The Kilrathi were always keen on invading the Landreich - it was one of their targets in the opening moves of the war, and it was one of their targets immediately following the false peace. Confed may not care about the Landreich, but the Kilrathi have always considered it a prize (I think they may even mention that Baka Kar was built by Thrakhath as an advance base for this purpose).

But the Confederation had been constructing the Behemoth for the better part of 10 years, if I'm remembering my FC correctly.

False Colors is the one that implies that the Behemoth was developed in a few days But WC3 states that the project had existed for ten years.

This shape would also have a volume of 88 cubic kilometers, and filling it with an atmosphere equivalent to Earth at sea level would require approximately 100 million tons of air. Even if the dreadnought were shaped so that it had only a tenth of this volume, it would still hold ten million tons of air. In other words, a 290,000 ton dreadnought of this size would be thirty times lighter than air.

That depends on whether or not the mass of the ship includes the air, though (which is essentially a munition/supply/etc).

Some stat corrections-

* The Hvar'kann had *38* dual laser batteries in the game, the novel and the manual. I have absolutely no idea why /ships says 15.
* Twelve Hakagas were built in Fleet Action - the ones not used in the novel would have entered service by the time of WC3.
* I believe there are four Hvar'kanns seen at once in a cutscene, but I'm not at all sure about that. Three are named at some point: Hvar'kann, Vengeance of Vukar Tag and Vorghath. Since two of these survive the war, there must be a total of at least four (since there are two you can destroy at the end of WC3 3DO).

 

[Red Baron]

Is the MAC version WC3 a port from 3DO or from the pc version? it was in my top ten mac pak, yet i didn´t play it because of SWC.